To-do list:
- Move wicks to the tropes on the Overarching Villain disambiguation page if they fit, and remove them if they don't. For reference purposes, here's the list of tropes on the disambiguation page:
- Antagonist Title: A villain important to the work such it's after them.
- Arc Villain: Standalone villain of a single story arc in a much longer story.
- Big Bad: The cause of all the story's bad events which the hero(es) must resolve.
- Breakout Villain: A villain becomes a series mainstay in response to their fan popularity.
- Demoted to Dragon: When a past Big Bad returns as The Dragon to a new Big Bad.
- Ex-Big Bad: A former Big Bad returns but is no longer the main threat, being overshadowed by a new Big Bad.
- Greater-Scope Villain: A threat/villainous presence that's more dangerous, affects more people, or is more significant than the story's current Big Bad in the setting as a whole, but isn't causing the conflict of the immediate story.
- The Heavy: The villain that moves the plot forward and gets the most focus among the antagonists, even if they are not the Big Bad.
- Hijacked by Ganon: An old villain turns out to be behind a new threat.
- Joker Immunity: Villains who are too good or too popular to be Killed Off for Real.
- The Man Behind the Man: A bigger villain is revealed to be behind the actions of the original villain.
- The Man Behind the Monsters: A human (or something resembling a human) leads an army of monsters.
- Mascot Villain: A villain who serves as a Series Mascot.
- Returning Big Bad: A previous Big Bad returns to be the main threat later on in the story.
- Villain on Leave: When a Big Bad is absent for the second installment, but is present in the first and third.
- Villainous Legacy: The villain is no longer around, but the plot continues to be driven by things they did while alive.
Background
This began when I thought I was dealing with a unclear description, so started a Trope Talk discussion (here
). That talk established both the original purpose for Overarching Villain, and the fact it doesn't appear to be doing its intended job.
Trope's Original Purpose
The original purpose for creating Overarching Villain was to solve Big Bad misuse (here and here), specifically, that the Big Bad should not be viewed as having to span the entire work (and that Arc Villain and Big Bad are therefore not mutually exclusive). Overarching Villain was created to spin-off this Big Bad misuse into a separate trope that captures a villain (or multiple villains) that spans the entire work.
During the course of that discussion, there was a general feeling that the trope description doesn't explain this very well, and that if its sole purpose is to address the idea that people should stop thinking of the Big Bad as a villain that must span the entire work, then that should ideally be addressed by amending the Big Bad trope description to point that out.
Instead of solving the Big Bad/Arc Villain confusion, the new trope has increased the confusion of which trope should be used to describe a villain's role in the work. I therefore did a wick check to see how Overarching Villain is currently being used, which is summarised just below:
Wick Check
Summary (Potholes not separated out):
- Correct Use: 24%
- Misuse: 50%
- ZCE: 14%
- Unsure: 12%
Summary (Potholes separated out):
- Correct Use: 12%
- Potholes: 28%
- Probably Correct: (42.9% / 12%)
- Probably Misuse: (14.3% / 4%)
- ZCE: (21.4% / 6%)
- Unsure: (21.4% / 6%)
- Misuse: 46%
- ZCE: 8%
- Unsure: 6%
The misuse was caused mostly by placing a character under Overarching Villain because they're the Big Bad or Arc Villain or Greater-Scope Villain, etc., or because they're the most recurring villain. Where they're a different trope, there's no indication that the alternative trope is inadequate, or missing essential trope elements, that would indicate another trope is needed. One troper in the original trope talk did suggest that there might possibly be a role for this in works that have no overarching conflict, but do have antagonists that stick around for most of the arcs. However, their concern was that even this is just Arc Villain, but a bit more specific. My additional thought to this idea is that it would again be interpreted as "most recurring villain".
Suggested Outcome
My feeling is that this trope causes more problems than it solves, doesn't seem to be finding a genuine niche that Arc Villain, Big Bad or Greater-Scope Villain, etc., can't already cover, and therefore should be removed. The issue it was trying to solve should be clarified in the Big Bad trope description, which can be done in a single sentence.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 16th 2022 at 5:45:34 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Adding to the list is fine. The post I linked to is our starting point, not the finalized list.
HoMM Fan
Thanks, just wanted to be sure ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
She / Her
Keeping the trope but putting it under reevaluation. (I hope I'm not too late to say that lol.)
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Feb 5th 2022 at 5:23:28 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
As a regular of the Complete Monster thread, I can help out chopping the wicks in the monster subpages.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'm assuming you mean sandboxing the changes and asking the mods to transplant the changes, since Monster/ subpages are always locked. (But I should probably state that I don't usually handle the Locked Pages thread, and any wick cleaning I've done on locked pages was just done on my own while also working on other pages).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 3rd 2022 at 8:57:24 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Professor Gigachad
The thread is handling those on its own so you don't need to worry.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Question: So what single trope replaces OV for Makarov?
- Overarching Villain: Makarov is this for the Modern Warfare trilogy. His influence has shaped the events in said trilogy where he was apart of a Big Bad Ensemble with General Shepherd in Modern Warfare 2, became the sole Big Bad of Modern Warfare 3, and was revealed to be the Greater-Scope Villain of the first installment, even making a cameo in its remastered version.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I don't think there is one. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Some things just aren't tropes.
But, you don't just have to take my word for it. Try asking Trope Finder.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 4th 2022 at 3:41:06 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, I know that trope is still wicked in some Complete Monster pages, but we'll take care of it.
Incidentally, the dewicking will probably take more time than it would to just make sure the trope is used properly.
Edited by ACW on Feb 4th 2022 at 7:18:40 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
...No? The wick check identified that only a quarter of the usage was correct. Even if we were doing cleanup, we'd still have to get rid of all the misuse. If anything a non-dewicking cleanup effort would take longer because cleanup threads have to take their time discussing examples, which allows misuse to keep growing. A dewicking effort is faster because we can just fly through and not worry about weeding out the good examples.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 4th 2022 at 1:32:57 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
HoMM Fan
Not to mention, length of a cleanup shouldn't decide if a trope sinks or swims, barring cases where the workload would be obscene.
"Grandmaster Combat, son!"
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Right, and even in those cases we usually still add it to TRS Wick Cleaning in case anyone wants to try making a dent.
Well if this trope is getting disambig-ed, you might also want to add Returning Big Bad and/or Villain on Leave to the disambig list.
Edited by Snowy66 on Feb 4th 2022 at 11:07:26 AM
HoMM Fan
I'm gonna be honest and say I didn't even know those tropes existed, but those should definitely go in the disambig (and also add further reason for OV getting disambiged)
They are fairly new tropes, which were done as subtropes to OV.
And maybe Ex-Big Bad while we're at it.
Edited by Snowy66 on Feb 4th 2022 at 11:20:41 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
"If anything a non-dewicking cleanup effort would take longer because cleanup threads have to take their time discussing examples, which allows misuse to keep growing. A dewicking effort is faster because we can just fly through and not worry about weeding out the good examples."
So in fact we're going for the option that requires less work. Hmmm...(dewicking WILL take time though since the wicks have to be replaced with Big Bad, GSV, or whatever).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Well, obviously it'll take time. Look at how many starred threads there are, most of them needing wick cleanup done. My point is, though, a cleanup effort only really works if people are willing to take their time, if a large amount of people decide to join the effort, or if the misuse isn't so substantial it means 90% of the wicks would need to be cut, anyway.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard ones, at least, are taken care of.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
My impression was Overarching Villain was meant for those who vary between Big Bad and Greater-Scope Villain between installments/arcs. What do we do in those instances? Can Arc Villain cover whole series in such cases?
Maybe that concept could be yarded, or taken to the TLP.
I’ve always used OV as just a villain that’s been around for nearly the whole series, regardless of Big Bad or The Dragon status.
With Arc Villain, I feel you’d have to have more than one arc to qualify. If there’s only one or no obvious arcs, then they are just the Big Bad.
Edited by Snowy66 on Feb 4th 2022 at 5:05:00 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
So am I good to start moving Overarching Villain wicks to different tropes or do I need to wait for an official cleanup to begin?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
The thread is starred; we're officially in the cleanup phase. Dive on in.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cool.
So I know what would this from Supernatural: Archangels be moved to?
- Overarching Villain: He initially only appeared in Season 5, but was nevertheless The Man Behind the Man to all the previous major villains. And even after his defeat, he continued to hold this role: The events of Season 6 were caused by the angel Raphael wanting to free Lucifer once again (and Michael) and thus restart the Apocalypse. In Season 7, an imprint of him tormented Sam (and later Castiel) for several episodes. In Season 8, his crypts come into play, as it's revealed he had hidden powerful artifacts in them, and the existence of these artifacts (the angel tablet in particular) fuels the plot for the rest of the season. In addition, Abaddon is introduced, who is a Knight of Hell created by Lucifer himself, and trained by Cain, who himself had made a deal with Lucifer (and later became a demon) to save his brother. In Season 9, we find out that Gadreel was tricked by Lucifer, allowing him into the Garden of Eden, causing Gadreel to be so filled with guilt that he's easily manipulated by one of Season 9's main antagonists, Metatron. (The other antagonist being the previously mentioned Abaddon.) In Season 10, it's revealed that Lucifer originally possessed the Mark of Cain, which caused him to become spiteful towards humanity, before giving the Mark to Cain as part of their deal. The Mark itself is the main driving force of the season. In Season 11, he finally fully returns, manipulating Sam and Castiel into freeing him, leading to him possessing Castiel for half the season, in order to team up against the Darkness. And in Season 12, he returns to his antagonist role, causing havoc for the fun of it and siring a Nephilhim. This continues into Season 13, where he takes advantage of the pending threat of the Alternate Universe version of Michael invading the main reality to try and trick everyone into trusting and obeying him and in the finale goes full Omnicidal Maniac, planning to wipe out the universe, before Dean manages to finally kill him. Even then, his influence is still felt in Season 14 as Lucifer's former vessel Nick spends the entire season trying to bring the dead Lucifer back from the eternal void outside reality, only to be stopped at the last second by Jack.
And does it need to be this long?
Edited by Bullman on Feb 5th 2022 at 2:44:37 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Crown Description:
What should be done with Overarching Villain?
Before we get to cleanup mode, going to throw in my two bits for adding Villainous Legacy to the disambig if it's not already, as it came up a few times as a semi-rare misuse.
"Grandmaster Combat, son!"