Overarching Villain: Who counts, and how many?

I've got a question about Overarching Villain.

Does this cover just one villain who's in most of the story, or can there be multiple villains within the same work who come under this trope?

The description mentions the trope should not be confused with Big Bad, but then goes on to blur the line between this trope and Big Bad.

So, what happens in a work where both the Big Bad and The Heavy have been in it from the beginning, when they're both a part of the Myth Arc. Are they both examples? What happens if there are a group of villains who have been in the work for the same length of time because they're connected to the Myth Arc? Are they all the Overarching Villain?

I don't feel the description is doing a good job of explaining whether this is a single-villain trope or not, and it's being unnecessarily confusing about whether the Big Bad counts, and extremely vague about whether other villains can count if the Big Bad does.

I agree, I think the description is a mess.

I think what the original creator had in mind was maybe that the Overarching Villain would be for a subplot that ran for a long time.

I'm not sure because it links the OV to the Myth Arc. Generally, the Myth Arc villains tend to be the primary villains (if they're not the Greater-Scope Villain). I know they don't have to be, but it's common that they are. Unfortunately, I'm getting the feel that the Myth Arc is a bit hazy, too, in terms of how the OV links to it, especially since it is usually the Big Bad and associated villains that are linked to it. Again, that doesn't have to be the case, but it commonly is.

It doesn't seem to have an easy way to find the original draft to see what the intention was. I don't know if this trope description just needs tweaking or a complete overhaul in TRS.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 30th 2021 at 2:38:24 PM

The reason why the I made the trope was to dissuade the idea that Arc Villain and Big Bad are mutually exclusive (if they were, then none of the Buffy examples would count as Big Bads). It appears to have failed.

Whoops.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Oct 1st 2021 at 7:35:58 AM

^ I guess I don't see what this trope is doing to fix any problems with that. If it was designed to catch misuse, what misuse was it meant to catch?

The idea that Big Bads have to persist for the whole series. I wanted to knock away the connotation.

I don't quite understand what this trope is doing to help get rid of that misconception. Can you explain?

By splitting the misconception of Big Bad into its own trope, I hoped that people would use it correctly while putting what they misconceived Big Bad being into this one.

There isn't anyway else I can explain it at this point.

I have to admit that I'm not getting any of that from the trope description at all.

Your explanation also doesn't clarify how to handle multiple villains who can count has having been in the show for the same, or similar, length of time, especially if one of them is a Big Bad (or perhaps more than one if there's a Big Bad Duumvirate).

The way the trope is currently worded, it almost comes across as wanting to be a "Myth Villain" trope. As in, use Arc Villain for a Story Arc, and Myth Villain for a Myth Arc. The two problems with that is that this idea doesn't match your stated intention here (which is to stop thinking the Big Bad has to span the entire work). The other problem is that the trope description goes on to appear to walk back this idea anyway in favour of coming across as "the villain that's been in the story the longest" (which doesn't have to have anything to do with Arc Villain, Big Bad or Myth Villain), thereby turning the trope into a numbers game, which may or may not be potentially meaningless.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 3rd 2021 at 5:29:27 PM

The original name of the trope was Myth Villain, but I was forced to change it by popular demand.

Also...what's in the description literally is my intention. Yeah, there can be multiple of these, and yeah, it's intended to be analogous to a Myth Arc. I don't really see much of the confusion that you are having with it.

Sorry if I coming off as blunt. I have a lot on my plate to deal with and I'm not getting enough sleep.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Oct 3rd 2021 at 6:00:19 AM

The trope description might be clear to you, but it doesn't seem very clear to either of us. Plus, I'm not sure what misuse it would catch—it seems your problem is actually with Big Bad and could be cleared up with a sentence or two on that trope description.

I'm thinking the same thing. If the point is to clarify a misconception with the Big Bad trope description, that would be the place to clean it up.

I don't think this trope is doing that; it's just muddying the waters further.

Sorry, Satoshi. The intention is not to gang up on you. I am genuinely confused by this trope description, and was hoping a discussion in Trope Talk would clarify it. However, it has had the opposite effect, and it does make me wonder how widespread (or small) the confusion is.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 10th 2021 at 9:41:10 AM

I think I get what OV is trying to achieve. It's just that, in practice, I don't see how it's distinct from the Big Bad—since a Big Bad is defined as the cause of the primary conflict of the story, while Myth Arc typically covers exactly that definition (i.e. the defining central conflict that drives the entire series), so by that definition, OV is completely redundant to Big Bad.

I suppose we might find a place for OV in works that doesn't feature a central conflict, but does have antagonists that sticks around for multiple arcs (e.g. a hero on a pilgrimage to The Promised Land must defeat numerous villains along the way, and they all work independently to one another), but that'd make it The Same, but More to Arc Villain.

Edited by Adept on Oct 10th 2021 at 8:14:44 PM

The Big Bad originated from Buffy, which was specifically about the primary villain driving the Myth Arc in each season, and as such had multiple Big Bads over the years. As applied to TV Tropes and the fact different shows have different styles of Myth Arcs, we expanded it to include a villain who had an overarching scheme the hero has to unravel so that it can be applied to a movie format. It sometimes has been misused when an editor will say something like "this episodes Big Bad is X" because they shouldn't be a simple standalone villain. An Arc Villain can be a Big Bad, because a Myth Arc is still a Story Arc, but that doesn't have universal overlap. Overarching Villain appears to have been made in an attempt to differentiate an Arc Villain type of Big Bad that changes regularly vs a more persistent, singular villain that drives the conflict for the entire setting. For example few, if any, episodes of He-Man do not include Skeletor in some fashion.

So single episodes can't have a Big Bad? What if a show is purely Monster of the Week with no antagonist beyond the individual episodes?

I would say that work doesn't have a Big Bad, then.

By definition a Big Bad has to be more significant than a Villain of the Week. If no villain does a repeat episode, then there is no Big Bad.

Correct. A Big Bad drives the conflict of an entire arc. In a serial work, this generally means that whatever is going on with them spans multiple episodes. If such a work does not have any overarching conflict, then it does not have a Big Bad. Different characters may of course rotate in and out of being the villain of any given episode, but that doesn't make them this trope.

So, if my understanding is correct, with the exception of the Non-Serial Movie installments, each arc's villain in One Piece and Dragon Ball Super is an Arc Villain, not the Big Bad, although they are the Big Bad of that story arc?

Just trying to ensure things are correct.

Do these arcs occupy multiple episodes, or are they Monster of the Week types?

In a complex serial narrative, the characters will face several kinds of opponents:

• Monster of the Week: Something is eating the local livestock and the heroes have to stop it. There's no direct connection to the bigger picture, although the story may call back to these events in some way.
• Arc Villain: A threat that may or may not be related to the bigger conflict but that occupies the characters' attention for several episodes. They have to resolve it to grow in power, advance through the evil hierarchy, drive character development, etc.
• Big Bad: A threat that dominates the primary story and that the characters must overcome to achieve their long-term goals. There might be bigger problems out there but this is the one that they are going to have to face by the end of the season.

I don't know much about DBZ other than that fight scenes take multiple episodes, everyone always has a more powerful form, nobody ever stays dead, and your strength is determined by how absurd your hair is. But I can relate this to another show I very much like: ATLA.

• In Book 1: Water, Admiral Zhao is the Big Bad. He's present from Episode 3 and is the one running the show for the bad guys. Firelord Ozai is the Greater-Scope Villain: we know that Aang is going to have to face him at some point but it's too far in the future for us to deal with.
• In Book 2: Earth, Princess Azula is the Big Bad. It's her machinations that drive most of the plot and the climax comes when Aang faces her in Ba Sing Se. Ozai is closer since Azula is closer to him, but it's her that we have to stop.
• In Book 3: Fire, Firelord Ozai takes front seat as the Big Bad. This is it: the big time. Everything has built up to the final climax of the conflict that was introduced in the very first episode.

There are quite a few Monster of the Week stories, such as the episode with Hei Bai. There are also plenty of human antagonists who show up in single episodes. As for Arc Villains, we could look at characters like "Combustion Man" and Long Feng. They aren't ever the main threats but they do show up several times and present serious obstacles for the heroes.

Edit: Looking at the Overarching Villain trope, I have absolutely no idea what it is supposed to be other than Big Bad or Greater-Scope Villain. It has no place to fit in.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 14th 2021 at 1:32:11 PM

I don't think Combustion Man is an Arc Villain because his episodes don't really constitute an arc. He's just a recurring episode villain.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Oct 14th 2021 at 1:48:06 PM

The line is thinly drawn. The resolution of his arc is what gets Zuko accepted into the Gaang, so he's more than just a recurring villain. He's a part of Zuko's character development.

In order to apply to wide variety of stories, there will be some flexibility in what differentiates Big Bad, Arc Villain and Monster of the Week. The core premise on what they should be would be:

• Big Bad: The villain who both drives the plot and is the antagonist needed to overcome to resolve the Myth Arc.
• Arc Villain: The villain who represents the problem being confronted in the ongoing story arc.
• Monster of the Week: Each installment produces a new villain that has to be overcome.

It is easy to assume an Arc Villain is "lower" than a Big Bad, but in truth a Myth Arc is a type of Story Arc so a Big Bad is a subtrope of Arc Villain. And not every Myth Arc is a singular, continuous story but may consist of smaller story arcs contributing to a greater whole.

Another illustrative example is Star Wars - the original trilogy, not the extra movies. It follows a very similar escalation role as ATLA — which copied from it, so that's entirely understandable.

• A New Hope is a self-contained story in which a minion of the Greater-Scope Villain serves as the Big Bad: Grand Moff Tarkin.
• The Empire Strikes Back is an escalation in which Darth Vader, The Heavy of the previous film, takes center stage as the Big Bad.
• Return of the Jedi is a culmination in which the protagonists are finally ready to go after Emperor Palpatine and Vader is demoted back to The Heavy.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 14th 2021 at 8:34:29 AM

Yes, he plays some role in the ongoing story, but he doesn't become the main villain of as story arc. Unlike Long Feng, there's not a clearly defined block of episodes where he is the main threat the heroes are trying to take down. He just periodic shows up to fight them as they are trying to take down Ozai.

I was of the understanding that an Arc Villain could be a Big Bad?