Trope Idea Sounding Board

^That's kind of the definition of The Same, but More Specific and I can very easily see this snowballing into new pages for Black Alpha Bitch and Latina Alpha Bitch unless there's something unique or particular about the Asian Alpha Bitch that's included in the description.

ETA: I feel like the issue is with Asian Airhead's description. It offers two variations, but I'm not sure the split is necessary. What's essential to the trait is being Asian and dumb because it subverts Asian and Nerdy.

Edited by amathieu13 on Dec 15th 2021 at 2:49:23 PM

In fiction Asian characters tend to get stereotyped as model students. Asian Alpha Bitch would be a subversion of that. I also don't think that Alpha Bitch characters should be lumped in with airhead, because some alpha bitches are intelligent.

You sort of contradicted yourself there. An Alpha Bitch can be a smart model student- they don't have to be, but they can very easily fulfill that role. So by your own admission it's not subverting the stereotype at all- Asian Airhead already is.

Right. The model example the trope uses for that variation is London Tipton from The Suite Life of Zack & Cody, and honestly, she's less of an Alpha Bitch, and more of just a Rich Bitch, seeing as she's often Innocently Insensitive rather than malicious because her wealth and stupidity make her vapid and callous. Alpha Bitch isn't even listed on her character page for the show nor is she an example on the trope page.

Edited by amathieu13 on Dec 15th 2021 at 2:55:10 PM

Honestly I think the "Asian Alpha Bitch" aspect isn't really the same trope because, like you said, not every Alpha Bitch is an airhead. There might be a missing link where Asian girls in Western media are more associated with hyperfemininity, which plays into both Asian Airhead and Alpha Bitch? This might be a TRS issue though, to cut out the Alpha Bitch section from Asian Airhead.

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 15th 2021 at 3:12:37 PM

There's also Dragon Lady.

Yeah, this trope def could use some TRS love. I agree that the Alpha Bitch portion seems like a separate trope altogether, but I think that's because as pointed out, being dumb is not the same as being malevolent or mean. That said, I still think it makes sense for it to be subsumed by Alpha Bitch rather than broken into an Asian specific subtrope

Edited by amathieu13 on Dec 15th 2021 at 3:55:27 PM

Splitting this has come up multiple times in TLP and Trope Talk and I'm still against the idea.

Asian Airhead is a specific Stereotype Flip of Asian and Nerdy, and I think the "popular girl" variant is just because Popular Is Dumb, not out of any inherent Asian-ness. As a Asian former teen girl I can't actually think of any reason "Asian popular girl" could stand on its own, even filtering through all the possible stereotypes (Asians are model minorities so she comes from a rich family? Modern Dragon Lady? Asian fetishization resulting in her being considered the prettiest?) and I would prefer to undo the softsplit and reduce focus on the "mean girl" to reflect this rather than hard-splitting "Asian popular girl".

This did remind me of the thinkpieces that arose from Heathers that cast the titular "mean girl" clique (in the film the show was based on they were all conventionally attractive white girls) with underrepresented minorities (a fat girl, a black girl, and a genderqueer guy), while keeping the film's conventionally attractive white girl as the heroine who takes them down. This was slammed for Unfortunate Implications. IDK, just spitballing, maybe there's something in "white protagonist has a mean ethnic rival", but it'd have to be fleshed out and examined lot more.

Edited by Synchronicity on Dec 16th 2021 at 10:21:50 AM

At the end of the day, we should get rid of that soft split. I was just thinking that maybe there was a separate trope that we didn't have yet.

I'm for splitting as in removing the internal subtrope about Asian popular girls. The "non-white rival" thing could be dealt with, as could the possible "hyperfeminine Asian girl" stereotype.

Found another "sounds like a valid trope idea" while doing some more Asexuality dewicking:

• Characters.Roxy Was Here Astraverse: Aradia has never felt sexual attraction in her life, and magic or superpowers that attempt to amplify or manipulate sexual attraction have no effect on her. But she has fallen in love.

Hair as social status: A type of Expository Hairstyle where hair length/style is used as an indicator of social status In-Universe

• Babylon 5:In Centauri society, the height of one's hair fan indicates the individual's social status. Women in their culture typically shave their heads (save for the occasional ponytail), which should tell you all you need to know about their standing.

• A Song of Ice and Fire: Dothraki cut their Braids of Barbarism when they lose a fight. In A Game of Thrones, Khal Drogo has never cut his hair

• The Sword of Truth: Only noblewomen in the Midlands may have long hair. Love Interest Kahlan's Rapunzel Hair marks her as one of the most important people in the kingdom.

I've seen that. Hair Social Style as a name maybe.

Maybe put Signal in there instead.

Hair Signal... Or Silent Status Symbol for all things...

Edited by Malady on Dec 17th 2021 at 6:35:53 AM

I've seen this possible trope based on The Wiki Rule and fansites, but perhaps as a Sub-Trope of Out of Focus:

• Cameo Filler Character: When a character who's Out of Focus or Demoted to Extra appears in crowd scenes to pad out the crowd beyond unnamed characters.

This was Inspired by… when I'd seen examples on wikis listing:

Minor Characters

• Carol (cameo)
• Jane (cameo)
• Suzy (cameo)
• Rachael (cameo)
• FBI Agent Nichole (cameo)
• FBI Agent Jenny (non-speaking cameo)
• Officer Angela (cameo)
• King John (corpse, cameo)
• Queen Jane (corpse, cameo)
• Princess Sarah (cameo)

The above isn't for any existing show, just an example of how they tend to write things.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on Dec 17th 2021 at 8:16:19 PM

Isn't that too similar to Demoted to Extra? I mean it's right on the name.

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 17th 2021 at 4:28:37 AM

x5: One, I replaced that example you removed with Romantic Asexual. Two, Characters.Whateley Universe Team Kimba has a similar example:

• Romantic Asexual: A side effect of being stuck at the physical age of eleven is that she experiences no sexual attraction, which includes being unaffected by Sara's lust aura. While she does have a lot of romantic fantasies they're mostly of the preadolescent, non-sexual "pretty princess" variety.

x4: Witchy has this. From the page description: "hair length dictates magic power. Short haired people are looked down on, but those with hair that is considered too long are considered dangerous and are put to death."

That doesn't... feel like the trope though? The romantic part of "Romantic Asexual" is barely described, and the example focuses more on how the character No Sells things meant to incite sexual attraction since they're incapable of feeling it. Would it just go under No-Sell?

I'd think it could go under both, and the finer details about No-Selling could be moved to that trope's example.

Adult Coming-of-Age (Story): A Coming of Age Story focused on a young adult character. Think new adult, I suppose.

The example that inspired this was a Queer Romance about a college student with no relationship experience learning about relationships, discovering her sexuality, and entering her first relationship; I was considering it as a potential example for Coming Of Age Queer Romance. (...oh no. that page is hit by the custom title bug )

Edited by Twiddler on Dec 17th 2021 at 3:25:08 AM

I've had this idea in my sandbox for a while, but have been too wary to put it to the TLP. "Hypermasculine Trans Woman," for the stereotype in works where transgender women are depicted as more burly and masculine than not just their cis female counterparts, but their cis male counterparts. It'd be restricted to exaggerated fictional examples of course, but I always get nervous discussing a trope that does obviously exist, but has poor implications, mostly cuz I don't want people to just add any trans female character who doesn't fit the ideals of womanhood to the examples.

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 17th 2021 at 2:10:49 PM

I have an idea for a trope that is similar to Trapped in Villainy but I feel is distinct- basically a reluctant villain sidekick. I've seen the trope before but I've really been noticing it now that I've been watching a lot of horror movies. A character is not necessarily a bad person, but is friends/family with someone who basically drags them along for villainous acts. They do bad things not because they want to but because they've hitched their horse to the wrong cart and it's too late. Their allegiance may be uncertain, and characters on either side might (try to) talk them into helping. A lot of the time the character doesn't know what they're getting into, and pretty often they turn face by the end of the movie (and usually die for it because redemption equals death. All of my examples die but I feel like there could be exceptions).

I think it's different from Trapped in Villainy because it's not really the case of a mook/underling whose boss will kill them, it's someone who is genuinely close with the villain(s) and generally allied with them but is uncomfortable with the villainous actions they reluctantly go along with- though they might still be afraid of their loved one too. So it also wouldn't apply to a character who's acting because a loved one is being held hostage in exchange for their cooperation, for example.

Examples (spoilers):

In the movie Better Watch Out, the main villain is a kid who basically goes on a power trip, captures his babysitter, and kills people. His best friend Garrett originally thinks it's just a prank before it starts going off the deep end. He goes along with it first because it's his friend, but then unwillingly because They're In Too Deep and he's scared of going to juvie and eventually because he's scared for his own safety. He tries to help the babysitter in the end, and is killed for it.

In the movie Till Death, the main villain's brother goes along thinking they're going to do a regular smash and grab and is very noticeably off-put and upset when his brother murders one dude and then tries to kill the female protagonist. He ends up accidentally killed after stopping her from being beheaded.

In the movie Ready Or Not, a woman is hunted in a deadly game of Hide and Seek to be sacrificed by her new husband's family in a longstanding tradition. Brother-in-law Daniel is explicitly unhappy about this but for most of the movie goes along with his family (partly because they might die if the ritual isn't completed) and half-heartedly hunts her (though he kind of lets her get away). By the end of the movie, he turns face and helps her (briefly) escape, and- you guessed it- is killed for it.

There's also an episode of ER where Ewan Mc Gregor plays a guy who holds up a store with his cousin and feels increasingly guilty and out of his depth when people end up getting shot. He also dies at the end but not directly because of his heel-face turn.

Edited by casandloki101 on Dec 18th 2021 at 6:08:28 AM

I have an idea for a which I'm surprised doesn't exist already.

I call it "All Sea Creatures Can Breath Underwater" although I feel the title might need to be changed to something snappier.

Basically it's a subtrope of Super Not-Drowning Skills, but it's specifically for aquatic animals, like whales, dolphins, turtles and other things.

I feel it should be a trope because works seem to give air breathing sea creatures the ability to breath underwater, or at least spend an awful long time without coming up for air, even in shows where land dwellers can't breath underwater.

A good example would be Pearl from Spongebob, who despite being a whale can spend a realy long time underwater, lives in an underwater house and even wears a water helmet when visiting Sandy's tree dome.

Of course I do have other examples as well, like the turtles from Finding Nemo, and the whales from Shark Tale.

Edited by LapisLazuliisthebest on Dec 19th 2021 at 11:32:12 AM

Artistic License – Biology Sub-Trope.

So do you like my idea then?

I've thought of a better title as well. How about "All Sea Creatures Are Fish" for a title?

That's a bit more specific. Sounds like they all need fins then.

EDIT: Artistic License – Marine Biology exists.

Edited by Malady on Dec 19th 2021 at 10:12:40 AM

Forget the alternate title.

But yeah, I see your point of Artistic License – Marine Biology already existing.