Hate Sink cleanup

I can agree to that!

Here's a Super Sentai villain that I think should be cut: Basco ta Jolokia

• Hate Sink: Basco always looks out for himself, which proves that there's absolutely nothing redeemable or likable about him, in that he's willing to sell out anyone who he worked alongside with just to satiate his greed. Even Damaras, who is Properly Paranoid about him, was right not to trust him to begin with and only hired him in the first place due to the pirates threat to the Zangyack's goals.

Yes, he's not redeemable and is Hated By All in-universe, but I think he's more Evil Is Cool (the Gokaiger YMMV even lists him as such) regardless of his selfishness and backstabbing: Effective as a Knight of Cerebus, Laughably Evil at times, great use of ranger keys, is an excellent fighter, extreme cunning, and is given a great performance by Kei Hosagi. In fact, there seems to be a lot of people who like Basco even more than the Zangyack. This might better fall under More Despicable Minion.

Edited by sethtropes on Feb 19th 2024 at 5:40:35 AM

I found this entry in Owlman's folder in Characters.Justice League Crisis On Two Earths:

• Hate Sink: He's one of the few villains that Batman technically kills, but considering his sociopathic demeanour, his depressingly nihilistic ideology, and the terrifying scope of his plans, it's safe to say that no one (except Superwoman) will mourn him. He also had just enough time to abort the bomb's detonation, and Batman probably knew that, so his death was arguably his own choice.

Does he count? He's an approved Complete Monster, but I think there's a strong Evil Is Cool factor.

I just removed it. Superwoman otoh I think is a keep

So should Mrs. Tweedy be cut or should there be a paragraph with a subversion?

I've thought about Tweedy's status as a Hate Sink for a while, and I think that due to the fact that Sam Fell is the new director rather than rather Peter Lord and Nick Park, only Karey Kirkpatrick returns as the writer, the fact that Mrs. Tweedy wasn't initially intended to be the villain in the sequel (it was supposed to be a new villain), and the fact that there was 23 year gap between the two films, I think the entry should be modified to reflect the first film alone.

Mrs. Tweedy is more of a case of Breakout Villain and her change in design and character reflects that, removing or downplaying characteristics that would otherwise classify her as a Hate Sink. She is elevated as Ginger's Arch-Enemy over Mr. Tweedy, is more cackling mad (she never laughs in the first film), and her new chicken farm is depicted as an over-the-top supervillain lair rather than a realistic concentration camp. Her abuse of Dr. Fry is also played solely for laughs (mainly because he's still loyal to her even when she's about to be blown up by robot ducks at the end of the film) whereas her abuse on Mr. Tweedy is treated more seriously (not to mention that Mr. Tweedy gets to stand up for himself at the end of the film).

Edited by Shadao on Feb 20th 2024 at 5:18:40 AM

Found an example on Judgment that I find questionable.

• Hate Sink: While Shono may have had sympathetic motives for creating AD-9 at first, he quickly loses all sympathy when he crosses every moral line and resorts to murdering an innocent woman and framing her boyfriend for the crime to cover up his murder of Waku. And if that weren't enough, he engages in human experimentation on yakuza thugs, trying to improve a drug that could never be made safe for humans; a fact he knew, but chose to ignore out of some kind of twisted determination.

Okay, I have to be honest here- Shono is overhated. It's stated clearly that he's driven by the tragic loss of his family, even if it definitely doesn't excuse his actions. The fact that people have been bashing him since day 1 is the whole reason Kuroiwa and Ichinose took so long to be proposed as Complete Monsters, even though Shono is A Lighter Shade of Black to both of them. Besides, Sombron was recently removed due to his "love" for the Emblem of Foundation, even though that "love" is closer to twisted admiration than genuine care. If Sombron doesn't count, then neither does Shono.

Alright, here’s Diamondback from Luke Cage:

• Hate Sink: Diamondback is such an asshole to friend and foe alike that no one can stand him. Then he is eventually revealed as the force behind EVERYTHING wrong that has happened to Luke. Defeating him becomes Luke's number one priority, above everything else. Eventually, every single one of his allies ends up turning on him with Domingo trying and failing to execute him, and Shades and Mariah trying to strike up a truce with Luke to get rid of Willis by any means necessary.

Yeah, no, sorry. While Diamondback is definitely a Viler New Villain in comparison to Cottonmouth and Shades, he's still meant to be somewhat sympathetic character. He's a victim of abandonment from his biological father, and he eventually went off the rails after the death of his beloved mother, with Luke even pitying him for it. Yes, his grudge against Luke is a MASSIVE case of Misplaced Retribution, but it's clear that the loss of his mother genuinely destroyed him, especially since he delivers one hell of a Motive Rant about it. Even his actor describes him as a Tragic Villain:

The final nail in the coffin: the dude is hilarious. One of his very first scenes has him absolutely screaming quotes from The Warriors in the middle of a street, and from that point on, he proceeds to relish in his role as a supervillain in the most deliciously hammy way possible. He even says "Bye Felicia!" as he drops a hostage off a balcony!

I say cut.

Edited by Remnant43 on Feb 26th 2024 at 5:41:17 AM

I concur, cut Diamondback

Yeah Diamondback doesn't sound like the character who would be considered an HS to qualify so cut him.

Having recently finished the season, I’ve been meaning to cut Diamondback myself.

Even though it keeps reoccurring, noting that Hate Sink's subtrope list has expanded quite a bit.

e: quite a lot

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 4th 2024 at 11:31:07 PM

Ok, so watching Hazbin has taught me that even a character that's Laughably Evil doesn't automatically really a disqualify said character being a Hate Sink

If Valentino and Katie Killjoy are anything to go by.

Maybe we could put in the header that it's fine for them to be a comedic as long as it never overshadows their hateability.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Mar 5th 2024 at 8:20:14 PM

IDK. It kind of defeats the purpose. If the audience is meant to find a character funny, that's at odds with them finding the character hateworthy.

Someone being Laughably Evil would be a contradiction of them being a Hate Sink because it's a good quality.

How much Laughably Evil Valentino is feels subjective, having his fur stolen by Niffty is the only case of comedy I remember that involves him, and it's arguable if his rants are meant to be funny or even more horrifying.

It's worth noting, and I did forget to point out, that Valentino is Zig-Zagged example of Laughably Evil. He doesn't play that trope straight like Adam, nor subtly but still straight like Lute.

The narrative overall plays him for horror and drama most of the time, especially in the moments seen through Angel's POV.

He just...has happens to also be a Psychopathic Manchild, that can be funny in certain scenes.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Mar 6th 2024 at 7:54:32 PM

Just want to remind people that I question Yoji Shono from Judgment being one, but nobody responded. Do you think he should be removed or not?

re:Valentino: He also has a pretty hilarious and relatively lighthearted moment in the season one finale when he replies "Well, this just got interesting" when Lucifer accidentally says he'll fuck Adam instead of fuck up Adam while holding a Comical Coffee Cup saying "Pimpin' Not Simpin'.

IMO, being having comedic is about the same as "complex"or "cool" qualities in a Hate Sink — a candidate can have them, they just can't outweigh their hateable ones.

Someone one or two jokes or being The Chew Toy wouldn't be a disqualifier. But played almost entirely for comedy would be. Valentino's seems like the former IMO. He's got a few moments of comedy but he's overall played like hateful abuser and predator.

Edited by Beast on Mar 8th 2024 at 8:50:53 AM

That's my reasoning. Being a subject of 2-3 jokes doesn't make him a comedic character overall.

There's a page for the Saints Row series that I decided to take a look at to see if anyone fits the criteria. I'm unsure about anything past 2 bar the entries and what I can find, so the comments there will probably be short.

• Richard Hughes - Don't think he counts. He's Affably Evil and keeps his dirty work and ulterior motives concealed until the final cutscene.
• Jessica Parish - Keep. She's condescending, racist, and has a character brutally tortured and forced to be put down to spite The Boss. Pierce even states that she deserved to be killed.
• Shogo Akuji: Keep. Ignoring how much of what he's done is to try appease his father (who I'd argue fits the trope but isn't there), his underhanded tactics (like attacking Aisha's funeral when Johnny tells him to leave) and smarmy attitude are hated in universe.
• Dex Jackson: Keep. The only thing I'd be concerned about would be the fact he ends up becoming a joke in Gat Out Of Hell.
• Kia: Keep.
• Andy Zhen: Keep.
• Atticus Marshall: Keep.

Being the creator of that page, I don't see that disqualify Hughes. He's of a Faux Affably Evil Smug Snake than anything. He only really appears in one cutscene where he's a played out as condescending dirty politician with a Kill the Poor plan.

As for Dex, him being a joke in Gate Out of Hell also isn't disqualifying IMO; the joke about his punishment is at his expense, which isn't the kind of humor that'd normally disqualify a character.

Of the Hazbin Hotel characters that have been brought up, I'll give my thoughts

• Adam: Definetely not a Hate Sink, he's far too Laughably Evil to count
• Lute: This one is far more contentious, but given how she's The Comically Serious half of her and Adam's Ham and Deadpan Duo she also doesn't count
• Katie Killjoy: An interesting example. Katie in the pilot certainly counts due to being utterly smug and jerkish in a plain unlikable manner unlike the charming jerkassery of Adam. But having Brandon Rogers voicing her in the series proper means her comical nature gets pushed up. I'm on the fence with her.
• Valentino: Definitely a keep. Yeah he has a few comedic moments in the finale and his tantrum is somewhat comical, but he's taken seriously 90% of the time and his abuse of Angel is Played for Horror. Hard keep for me.
• Susan: Nope. She's a comical type of character that while annoying and Hated by All in-universe, isn't that hateable. Plus, it's implied she comes to respect Charlie by the end of the first season.

I've added the following HP characters

-The Carrows -Cormac Mc Claggen -Travers -Selwyn -Greyback -Igor Karkarov -Mc Nair -Dawlish -Runcorn -Tobias Snape (Snapes dad) -Wulburga Black (Sirius's mum)

A lot of those strike me as too minor to actually count.

Like Dawlish barely even does anything. How is he a Hate Sink?

The Carrows I could see, their entire role in book 7 is pretty much to be hateable, to show just how bad things at Hogwarts have gotten.

McLaggen, I dunno. He's definitely a pompous Jerk Jock, but I'm not sure he's really a Hate Sink just considering how book 6 is pretty dark in tone. I wouldn't single out the fairly generic highschool bully as the character meant to be seriously loathsome.

I don't even remember who Travers or Selwyn are? Which is probably not a good sign since a Hate Sink is supposed to be memorably hateable.

Greyback is another possible one. IIRC the books do emphasize how he's extra despicable even compared to Voldemort's other followers.

Dawlish definitely isn't. He's pretty much just the designated "generic ministry thug". He's not likeable, but not especially hateable either. He's just there to get knocked out in fight scenes.

Runcorn is another one I barely remember. I know who he is, because Harry steals his identity at one point, but does he actually do much?

Tobias is an abusive asshole, but barely gets any screentime.

Walburga was said to be a nasty piece of work, but the real her never appears while alive, and her talking portrait is largely just treated as an annoyance by the characters in-universe.

Edited by TheGrayFox on Mar 20th 2024 at 2:34:15 AM