During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Here I post a collaboration work with GeorgieEnkoom.
What is the work?
Quote from the main article of Tweeny Witches:
Arusu (Sachiko Kojima) is an 11-year-old girl who has a thing for the occult and is especially obsessed with witches and magic, thanks to a book given to her for her fifth birthday by her Disappeared Dad, Jidan (Atsuki Tani). When some bullies try to steal her book, a mishap sends her falling literally into the Magical Realm. Almost immediately, she meets Sheila (Houko Kuwashima) and Eva (Ryō Hirohashi), two apprentice witches who are close to her age.
Delighted as she is to be in the Magical Realm, she is less than delighted at how their society is run. Everyone is certainly not overjoyed at the reality of magic, while she believes magic should be used to make people happy. More disturbing to her is how the witches capture fairies and keep them behind bars for their use in spells. When she releases all the captive fairies back into the wild, the Grand Master of Witches (Ryoko Kinomiya) punishes Sheila and Eva with the Curse of Eternal Youth, leaving her bound in duty to join them on their quest to recapture the fairies and break her new friends' curse.
As she becomes more familiar with magic and her new friends, she learns more about her new world and its extremely dark underbelly — in particular, the war between the witches and their enemies, Grande (Joji Nakata) and his faction of warlocks, who seem intent on tearing everything apart and are also very interested in that book of hers...
Certainly one of the darker takes on the Magical Girl genre, Tweeny Witches (魔法少女隊アルス, Maho Shôjo Tai Arusu, translated as Magical Girl Squad Arusu) is a 2004 anime created by Keita Amemiya and produced by Studio 4°C. The series aired within Tensai Bit-kun on NHK Educational TV from April 9, 2004, to March 4, 2005, with a 6-episode OVA spin-off titled Tweeny Witches: The Adventures released on November 22, 2007.
In North America, Media Blasters released the original series and The Adventures in 2008 and 2009 respectively, both dubbed and subbed.
Who is Sigma? What has he done?
Sigma was the son of a nameless prophet who served Grande as his advisor. Sigma's father found Grande's method of Homeworld Evacuation too unethical, foretelling that someone else than him would save the Magical Realm. Grande devoured the prophet in front of the boy because he cared more about his desire to be seen as a savior. Since then, Sigma feigned loyalty to his father's killer as a scout, secretly searching for the savior of The Prophecy.
Sigma is introduced in the series proper as an Aloof Ally of Arusu and her friends during their journey to the Warlock Realm. At one point, he almost manipulates them into giving him the True Book of Spells by telling Eva that she must cure Arusu and Sheila of a deadly attack with a Flower from the Mountaintop and the book. After entering Wizard Kingdom, he puts Sheila under control and introduces her to his superiors as the witch his people need to cast dark magic. Unfortunately for him, Sheila rescues herself and plays along to rescue the captured Eva. His superiors kick him into prison for falling for the trap.
He becomes cellmates with Jidan, the long-lost father of Lennon and Arusu. To get out together, Sigma tells his superiors about the human's true identity and suggests holding him Hostage for MacGuffin. They refuse to let Sigma do the dirty work but both the prisoners successfully escape, with Jidan disguised as a soldier. He saves Arusu from the destruction of Wizard Kingdom, where he reveals that he's Good All Along and she's the savior his father was killed for foretelling.
After recovering from the effects of dark magic, he rebuilds the Magical Realm together with the wizards, who resisted Grande's rule just like him as the ethnic minority among the warlocks.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
For a character who's at best someone in his early teens and at worst a pre-teen, Sigma is impressive. Half-truths is where he shines best. It's extremely hard to know when he lies and when he doesn't, making the reveal of his true intentions all the more surprising. He does start out as arrogant with Smug Snake undertones, but those issues go out the window with his imprisonment and escape plan.
Thinking on his feet?
A non-issue there. Upon learning that Jidan is Arusu and Lennon's father, he immediately starts plotting a Batman Gambit to escape, deliberately giving that information to the warlocks in order for them to find Arusu. Even when they re-imprison him instead, he manages to take advantage of the warlocks opening Jidan's cell (in order to use him as leverage against Arusu) to successfully escape (and help Jidan escape as well). Yeah, after going through a Humiliation Conga, that's an impressive way to make a recovery.
Is he a bastard? Too much of a bastard?
Sigma suffers from a severe case of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder. He joins Arusu and her friends as their Aloof Ally before it's revealed that he wants the True Book of Spells for his father's killer. He emotionally abuses Eva, whom he only saves from the warlocks to gain Sheila's trust, by calling her useless multiple times, which he takes it up to eleven when he lies that her friends are going to die because of her. He suggests to Sheila leaving her world together as kindred spirits, only to put her under control for the sake of appearing subservient to his superiors. After sharing his tragic past with his cellmate (who does the same), he tells his superiors to take the human Hostage for MacGuffin but it's actually a ruse to get himself and his cellmate out.
He starts out with implied Fantastic Racism in the original Japanese dub, which bites him in the ass when Wil refuses to take him with them, seeing him as a "nuisance". That issue goes out the window in the climax as he happily joins the wizards after the destruction of Wizard Kingdom.
That said? Sigma after the reveal is sympathetic. His father was devoured in front of him by his leader, the same man who promised to save his people from destruction. It's implied that Grande being a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist disgusts him as he wants to get justice for his father by helping Arusu, the prophecied savior. His greatest feat is more like that of a Guile Hero and his goal is nothing short of noble and borderline pure good. Through his manipulations, he ultimately has a small hand in saving the Magical Realm.
Any other mitigating factors?
He goes through a huge Humiliation Conga. First, Sheila out-gambits him by pretending to remain under control, then Wil leaves him in Wizard Kingdom, and his superiors imprison him for his failure (kicking him into the prison to add salt to the wound). That's a notable Break the Haughty moment for Sigma, who loses all the arrogance he had in his debut. But then he recovers from it through his escape plan with Jidan which ends up being a success.
Competition?
When it comes to planning, Sigma has really only two people matching up to him: Grande and Sheila.
Sheila can be a ruthless manipulator and out-gambits Sigma, leading to his imprisonment. He recovers from it, that being said, as seen in the "Thinking on his feet?" and "Any other mitigating factors?" sections.
Grande is the master manipulator of the series, and with the exception of Sigma, makes everyone dance to his tune the whole time. Nevertheless, Sigma worked against him from the start and manages to escape even when the warlocks try their best to keep him imprisoned. The fact that Grande never considered the possibility that Sigma could work against him (given that Grande killed Sigma's father) shows how good Sigma is when it comes to pretending to be loyal. Furthermore, Grande's true motivation and his unnecessary acts of cruelty make him too much of a bastard.
Conclusion?
Sigma? Is a hard case. On one part, he's an excellent manipulator, damn good when it comes to improvisation, and pulls an Azula-worthy return after his Humiliation Conga. On another? His goal, in the long run, will benefit the entire Magical Realm and his most impressive scheme is pulled out when he escapes from prison, i.e., when plenty of his bastard features are gone (though he still endangers Jidan and Arusu, a father and daughter, by holding the former hostage as a bait to lure the latter).
Edited by IukaSylvie on Jul 25th 2020 at 12:00:27 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Cool. I will do it tomorrow. It's getting pretty late where I live.
Edit: ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
I will read the EP later.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 24th 2020 at 9:08:45 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Need to think on Sigma. He seems to have the bastard qualities down and we put up Azula after her Villainous Breakdown recovery, but I need a second opinion.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sure to Sigma.
Also if you are curious about who the FS cannidates are shoot me a pm.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 24th 2020 at 9:32:06 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Sigma
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Darkseid
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Abstaining on him given that I helped with the EP and that I was unsure about him... Though Sigma is easily in my top 3 Tweeny Witches characters. So... Hope you can enjoy the EP!
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 24th 2020 at 4:46:41 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
I'm leaning on Sigma. It seems like when he's bad he's a Smug Snake, and when he finally has the proper charm for this he's too heroic.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
That's what I thought as well, the issue is that even when Sigma was Good All Along, he was willing to backstab anyone not called the savior (Arusu). He sold out Jidan to Grande as part of his escape plan (even though he planned for Jidan to escape with him, he still endangered both his and Arusu's life by having Grande use Jidan as leverage, which leads to Grande obtaining the True Book of Spells, a major step towards his genocidal goals) and his goal is more to prove his father's prediction right than a 100% altruistic desire to save the world. His imprisonment removed his arrogance, not his Chronic Backstabbing Disorder. Proof is, he never apologized for considering abandoning Eva, or for the shit he pulled beforehand.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jul 24th 2020 at 5:04:45 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
I thought the effortpost was implying that they planned that together. If that's not the case then weak sigma.
Again, seems like a Mera case.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Nah, the escape plan was all Sigma's plan. Jidan wasn't even supposed to get out with him until the Warlocks chose to keep Sigma inside the prison, forcing Sigma to improvise and then help Jidan escape as well.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Sigma since he manages to recover from his breakdown.
Cut DCAU!Darkseid. As calm as he is, he is too sadistic.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Seems he was allowed when there was more leeway on the Bastard category. Currently, yeah, I think we can cut DCAU!Darkseid.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Yes to Sigma
Here is the Michael Eddington EP:
Who is Micahel Eddington? What is he done?
A little background so this makes sense. The Federation and Cardassian Union fought a border war, that was resolved with a cease-fire agreement, but a final peace treaty took longer. Cardassia wanted to expel all Federation colonists on any planet they deem to their's within the border region, regardless of how long they have been there. After a standoff over a planet in dispute, the Cardassians and Federation make a final peace treaty, with a final border being set, with different planets under Federation and Cardassian authority, but both the Federation and the Cardassian Union have to respect the rights of Federation and Cardassian colonists within their borders.
The Cardassian Union instantly tries to undermine this treaty, arming their colonists to try to force the Federation colonists out and many Federation citizens on these planets join the Maquis, a terrorist group that will fight for Federation citizens within the new Demilitarized Zone (DMZ).
Michael Eddington is seemingly a by the book Star Fleet officer sent to Deep Space 9 to be the new chief of security, but secretly the Maquis' leader, he spends several episodes waiting to strike.
Cardassia is attacked by the Klingon Empire and the Federation is aiding Cardassia (the Federation thinks the Dominion has tricked the Klingons into war with Cardassia) and is sending 12 replicators (devices that turn energy into matter) to help them. Sisko thinks the Maquis will steal them and Eddington throws suspension on Kasidy Yates, Sisko's girlfriend. Yates is secretly a smuggler and Maquis supporter and Eddington uses that to send Yates to meeting that will never happen to lure Sisko away from the station, so he can steal the replicators.
Later Sisko is tracking Eddington, Eddington lures Sisko to a refugee camp of humans trying to escape Cardassian oppression, pulling a phaser on him and trying to guilt-trip him, before beaming away. Sisko is determined to catch Eddington, but Eddington put a computer virus in Sisko's ship the Defiant, shutting it down. While making repairs, Star Fleet sends another ship the Malinche to capture Eddington. Eddington uses a fake Cardassian distress signal to lure the Malinche into an ambush and leaves it dead in space.
The crew is able to repair the Defiant and Eddington is able to use a probe disguised as a Maquis ship to lure the Defiant into a wild goose chase, while the Maquis attacked the Malinche. Also, Eddington sends Sisko a copy of Les Misérables and compares him to Javert.
Sisko is able to determine that Eddington plans to attack one of four Cardassian planets in the DMZ. Sisko deduces which planet Eddington will attack and sees Eddington use biogenic weapons against the planet, lethal only to Cardassians, but slow-acting enough to give them a chance to escape. Sisko is about to catch Eddington, but he shoots a fleeing Cardassian transport, forcing Sisko to choose between catching him and saving the Cardassians.
Sisko decides to fight dirty and begins to use biogenic weapons on Maquis planets, Eddington thinks he is pluffing, but Sisko goes through with it, again the chemicals are slow-acting enough to allow humans to flee the planet, but Eddington is enraged. Sisko says he will use biogenic weapons on every Maquis planet in the DMZ if Eddington doesn't give up, so Eddington has no choice and surrenders.
Later still Cardassia joins the Dominion and Dominion forces slaughter most of the Maquis and force the Klingons to retreat. Star Fleet finds a message from Eddington's supporters, saying they are launching cloaked missiles at Cardassia, which will result in a war between the Federation and the Dominion. Sisko forces Eddington to help him stop the missiles, by taking him to the launch site in an area known as the Badlands. Eddington uses several dangerous tricks to avoid Dominion ships from following them and gets them to the launch site.
But there never were any missiles, Eddington made them up, to lure Sisko to this site and force him to save what supporters he has left (including his wife). However, the Dominion's shock troops, the Jem'Hadar arrive at the site and kill most of the Maquis (which greatly distresses Eddington), but Sisko and Eddington find some survivors, including his wife. While escaping, Eddington is injured by the Jem'Hadar, makes a suicidal last stand against the Jem'Hadar, dying the hero's death he always wanted, to help the others escape.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
I think so, he outwitted Sisko several times and Sisko had sink pretty low to beat him.
He is well-read, he likes Les Misérables and likes collecting historical trinkets, he has a lucky Canadian looney coin back at the station.
He can be a bit self-righteous at times, maybe even pretentious, but I am not sure that would be enough to stop him from counting.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Well, he used bioweapons on a Cardassian planet, so there is that. He is not a nice guy
Now Eddington motivated by believing in the Maquis and having a Messiah complex, he may not be a pure noble hero but is not a pure villain either. He does care about his fellow Maquis, despite doing some things out of ego.
He can be petty, he compares the Federation to the Borg to Sisko (low blow, considering the Borg, killed Sikso's wife) and mentioned Cal Hudson, Sisko's friend who joined the Maquis, was killed by Cardassians.
Most Maquis are somewhat bigotted against Cardassians, Eddington says They are just Cardassians when he disables a Cardassian transport, but that is due to the mistreatment they suffered at the hands of the Cardassian Union and the Cardassian colonists.
Both Sisko and Eddington are being hypocrites when they call each other out for using bioweapons in the DMZ.
Final Verdict?
He may count.
Edited by Overlord on Jul 24th 2020 at 9:23:29 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Leaning yes, but abstaining due to his relation with the Cardassians.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Hmm... well we've had characters angry at a race that's mistreated them go up before. I'm not sure how it's played since you mention he's a hypocrite as well. I'll have to think.
Actually... given it's a one off line, he's got a lot of brilliance there, good qualities and a hell of an end, I'm gonna change to a yes.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 24th 2020 at 12:08:11 PM
Ironically Sisko is being hypocrite too, they both got mad about doing the same thing the other party did in this conflict. Sisko had to get pretty low for a Star Fleet captain to beat Eddington, Picard wouldn't have done that.
Edited by Overlord on Jul 24th 2020 at 9:10:09 AM
@Lighty: If you have objections to cutting Darkseid, you don't have to keep mum about them. Personally, I could go either way on the issue.
Imperial do you have votes on the two EPs on this page?
I was just thinking them over, and I do for one of them. to Sigma, but I need to think on Michael.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jul 24th 2020 at 9:27:00 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Switching to a yes to Michael Eddington.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Eddington.
to Sigma and Micheal
Sure cut Darkseid as you PM'd me about him
Speaking of CM/MB crossovers whose name also begins with Dark, that probably need to be cut I think that there's one I have in mind, namely Darkrai from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers for the following reasons.
- First of all I think that some of his scheming involves many deplorable acts factors. One of his acts involve sadistically torturing (Azurill) an innocent child Pokemon by subjecting him to constant Mind Rape. Another act involving trying to trick the player and his partner into killing themselves which is quite dark for a kids game.
- Secondly When you and Cresselia fight Darkrai and his goons, he has his goon fight them for him while he hides behind them, only attacking until they're all gone (Granted this could just be a Game mechanic as its never pointed out in the story or he could be a Combat Pragmatist, but its just something to point out)
- Thirdly, there is his main goal in turning the entire world into a lifeless wasteland stuck in time, just so he could rule over the tattered remains basically defining Dystopia Justifies the Means. (I can compare Darkrai to Scar from Lion King in terms of doing so much scheming to become top ruler, but are just too lazy to use their brains to actually rule simply letting the world deteriorate into nothing)
- Fourth, he spends his last moment gloating to the heroes that he's going to get away with his crimes once more before trying to get to the portal, which was just enough time for Palkia to swoop in and erase his memories, ending Darkrai's threat to the heroes for good
- Then, there's his competition in Dusknor whose every bit as brilliant and manipulative as Darkrai, but is given a more three dimensional personality, sympathetic and redeeming moments, understanding goal and has a character arc where he pulls a Heel–Face Turn already beating Darkrai here in charm for the audience.
So, while he all the qualifications as a MB (Crazy-Prepared, The Chessmaster, Manipulative Bastard, Evil Is Cool), and one of my favorate Pokemon villains in that he's a stark contrast from other Pokemon found in the franchise in that he's genuinely evil (aka a nice breath of fresh air for), and as much as I love CM/MB crossovers, I have to put him in the category with Palpatine and Darksied in that he's too much of a sadistic and petty asshole to truly count and his monstrosity comes first and foremost before his magnificence (though I might be too hard on him and I am also willing to hear counter arguments that support Darkrai staying on this trope)
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 24th 2020 at 7:39:10 AM
I think you can go for it Bull, I don't recall us being particularly strict for the FS stuff over on CM and there's no reason to treat this any different.
Also trimmed Talia:
Edited by 43110 on Jul 24th 2020 at 10:04:30 AM