During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Arianna Demachi.
Caesar
Mkay so as much as I loathe doing this, I've gotta bring up a cut for a character I myself proposed a couple years back.
- From Guardian Devil, by Kevin Smith: Quentin Beck, aka Mysterio, is presented as a genius, theatrical puppet master seeking to cement himself in history as a "legitimate" supervillain after a career of being nothing more than a B-lister. Upon being diagnosed with cancer, Mysterio makes it his mission to drive the hero Daredevil to insanity, playing on the man's religious faith by using a combination of manipulation, disguises, and hallucinogenic drugs to make him believe a baby under his care is The Antichrist and needs to be killed. Convincing Daredevil's lover Karen Page she has AIDS, framing his best friend Foggy Nelson for murder, and hiring Bullseye to kidnap the baby and kill anyone in his path (leading to Page's death in Daredevil's arms), Mysterio locks the child in a chamber that will soon suffocate her if Daredevil doesn't go along with the villain's devised "final act" of his grand plan. In the end, upon realizing he hasn't broken Daredevil, Mysterio gives him the baby back and proceeds to blow his own brains out in a final act of defiance towards both the hero and his own cancer, refusing to be taken down by anyone but his own hand. Despite his otherwise goofy or ineffectual outings, Mysterio here is a brilliant strategist, excellent manipulator, and holds all the charm that a Large Ham skilled in film and theater would possess.
So, Mysterio hits every mark pretty easily, and though some have said he doesn't count because of Daredevil delivering a Breaking Speech to him, that isn't an issue and doesn't affect his qualifications.
What does? The fact that Mysterio literally kicks off the plot by drugging a 15 year old girl unconscious, artificially impregnating her, killing her parents, using hallucinogens to convince her the baby she's impregnated with is the Antichrist so she'll tell Daredevil the same, and then killing her when she has the baby and leaves it with Daredevil.
This is....really fucking vile. It's not outright rape, and Mysterio is no sadist or takes pleasure in the act, but he nonetheless uses a teenage girl as part of his scheme by drugging her, impregnating her, using drugs to alter her mind, and then killing her when she outlives her usefulness.
Trying to drive Daredevil insane? Threatening the life of an infant? Killing his own partners? All bad, but not at all heinous enough IMO. But what he does to get the baby—and to a teenage girl, no less—unfortunately is way past the standard of bastardry we've since established since I proposed him back then.
Love the character, love this interpretation of him, but I think he goes a bit too far in deplorable crimes with what he does to the teenage girl, and should prolly be cut.
Edited by Ravok on May 2nd 2020 at 3:31:14 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Is this canon or a one-shot? Because if it's canon we can then do what we have with Bane or Kingpin then. However I don't know if Mysterio counts overall, if he doesn't I'm for cutting him on principle, because I'm not comfortable approving someone for a story-arc if they have an ongoing presence.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 2nd 2020 at 6:40:29 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Caesar
Mysterio only counts in this story arc—in general canon he's not written nearly as effective or manipulative, but he's also generally not written that evil or despicable, so it's all together one story arc where he both is smart and charming enough to hit the "magnificent" part, but too vile to stay within the range of the "bastard" part, IMO.
I personally don't have a major problem with a character only counting in one story arc, but that's a different discussion for another time.
Edited by Ravok on May 2nd 2020 at 3:44:29 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Yeah, I'd say cut him. That's pretty nasty. It's a shame we won't have an MB Mysterio up, seeing as he's one of my favorite villains in comics, but that strikes me as a disqualifying factor.
Cut Mysterio.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Mysterio. Shame it has to be done though.
Edited by Bullman on May 2nd 2020 at 6:17:53 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I generally like being more lax on how bad an MB can be...but holy crap. I've always felt the stuff with the teenager was seriously gross and heinous.
It sucks but Cut him.
Edited by Kylotrope on May 2nd 2020 at 1:23:40 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Goku Black
Cut Mysterio.
That's a bit too far....
What's funny is that he usually doesn't do stuff anywhere near that bad usually.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I've noticed a trend, Wich creates issues for Mysterio here. That when writers do take him seriously, they make him do pretty vile stuff as well.
Like, all the stuff in Far From Home, Or in the comics him tricking Wolverine into Murdering all his friends.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Okay cut Mysterio
Yeah, unfortunately having talked this one over with Ravok I’ve gotta say cut. Seems to clash with most of his character but the atrocious treatment of the teenager being in addition to making it seem Karen has AIDS show this is a repeat behaviour in his quest to drive Matt insane and it’s too much for me.
Shame we're losing the only take on Mysterio that qualifies, but if he's gotta be cut, he's gotta be cut. Hopefully we can find another at some point.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Mysterio.
Feels good, don't it?
The Unknown Unknown
Get him outta here.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Kinda been dragging my feet since I said I'd do it but I'll probably have a verdict on the short story version of Eisenheim sometime tomorrow.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Axlerod and Mysterio
Caesar
Alright, to kind of make up for the loss of Mysterio, let's discuss another candidate from a franchise many probably think I've milked dry on both here and the CM thread, but I just keep on trucking with em! This one is from a show I've already brought up on the thread, but I overlooked this mad lad the last time through...
What's the work?
G.I. Joe: Renegades is a series that, as I've said, I've already proposed a candidate from (it's version of Cobra Commander), and now, I've got a new one for us. From the episodes "The Package" and "Cousins", let's talk a character that I'm surprised doesn't have more versions of him that count!
Who is Major Bludd? What makes him a candidate?
Major Bludd (whose name could have just as much been Major Badass) is an Australian mercenary defined by his determination and sheer toughness in a world that seems hell-bent on grievoulsy wounding him.
Introduced in "The Package," Bludd is hired by Cobra—specifically, the Baroness—to eliminate Alvin Kibbey, a college student who moonlights as a hacker that leaks Cobra's secrets to the web in an attempt to discredit Cobra's Villain with Good Publicity status, and destroy a stolen Cobra device he has.
Hiding out at Kibbey's college, Bludd spies the young man being escorted into a vehicle and pursues it in his Cool Car...using the variety of weapons he's decked the vehicle out in, Bludd gives chase to the heavily armored vehicle—actually being driven by the G.I. Joes, who have taken Kibbey into their care to save his life from Cobra.
Consistently keeping up with the Joes despite all of the obstacles they throw his way, Bludd is taken aim on by the heavy artillery cannon on top of the Joes' vehicle, and quickly ejects from his car, dodging the blast and landing with grace on top of the Joes' vehicle and stabbing knives into the heavy artillery cannon, preventing it from further movement at the moment.
Pulling out his gun and nearly killing the Joes driving, Bludd is stopped and confronted by resident badass ninja Snake Eyes. Bludd, not missing a step despite surprise at having to fight a bloody ninja, actually keeps step with the generally unstoppable Snake Eyes, even taking advantage of their positions to get the drop on him and nearly kill him. Luckily, the Joes manage to pry the heavy artillery cannon loose at that moment, and swing it directly in Bludd's direction, knocking him off the vehicle.
Calling up the Baroness and informing her he'll be charging double his normal rate considering he's having to go through "ninjas and greenshirts" to get to Kibbey, Bludd uses a tracker on board the Joes' vehicle to hunt them down to a Cobra weapons cache disguised as a storage facility. Using his knowledge of Cobra, Bludd blows open a variety of the storage units and unleashes the hidden supersoldier Bio-Vipers inside, siccing them on the Joes.
Once more fighting Snake Eyes, Bludd gets taken down by the ninja....only to grab a grenade launcher out of a nearby storage unit and blast Snake Eyes, taking the man out of commission for the rest of the fight.
Bludd is then rammed by GI Joe leader Duke with a forklift at full speed and smashed into a wall. This stops him for about 2 seconds before he physically shoves the forklift off him and continues the pursuit, ultimately arranging the Bio-Vipers to surround the Joes and have them dead to rights, but Kibbey—sent running by the Joes to save him—comes to save the day and crashed a damn tanker truck into the building, sending all sorts of rubble crushing Bludd.
Busting out of the rubble, Bludd flings a knife at Kibbey, stabbing him through his backpack and seemingly killing the man as the Joes load Kibbey into their car and peel off. And though Bludd grabs a laser cannon and nearly takes out the Joes, Kibbey—who barely survived the knife throw, as it stabbed into his backpack and destroyed the stolen Cobra device, saving Kibbey's life—left a bomb inside the weapons cache, and detonates it just a bomb, catching Bludd up in the blast and destroying one of his eyes in the process.
With Kibbey put into hiding by the Joes (thus leaving Bludd and Cobra to believe he's dead from the knife throw), Bludd reports to Baroness of Kibbey's elimination and the destruction of the stolen device. And though Baroness is displeased at the destruction of Cobra's weapons cache, Bludd promises to make it up to her...by hunting the Joes down for free as revenge for them taking his eye.
Later appearing in "Cousins", Bludd, learning of a death in the family of the Joe named Roadblock, stakes out at the funeral, knowing Roadblock will show up. When Roadblock and his cousin, Heavy Duty, show up after the funeral finishes, Bludd ambushes them, taking a moment to offer Heavy Duty the chance to flee in exchange for handing over Roadblock, before giving chase to them when they flee in their vehicle—staring them down as they barrel straight towards him in a Jeep, pulling out a grenade launcher and making them veer away to survive, beforehand.
Though Heavy Duty seemingly loses Bludd in the ensuing car chase, Bludd simply uses his car"s weapons system to destroy a bridge as Heavy Duty crosses it, sending their car falling into the water. Bludd then grabs another gun and fires at the car, further damaging it and sending it sinking, seemingly taking Heavy Duty and Roadblock down with it...Bludd doesn't even begin to believe their dead, standing around and waiting for them to resurface, and though he slinks away when police sirens approach, he quickly hops into a boat and pursues the two men into the swamps.
Finding Roadblock and Heavy Duty, Bludd goads Heavy Duty into giving away their location, and though Roadblock throws Bludd off by flinging a damn snake into his face, Bludd grabs the snake midair and flings it away, continuing the pursuit. Roadblock and Heavy Duty lose Bludd for a time, but unfortunately, their bickering betweenst each other causes enough racket to draw Bludd, who captures the two, hides them in a cabin, and leaves a bomb near them to serve as bait, planning to lure the rest of the Joes in and blow them all to hell.
Bludd calls Baroness and informs her he wants ten times his usual rate to take out all the Joes...but when Baroness reminds him that he "owes" her for the destroyed weapons cache, Bludd wordlessly agrees, preparing for the rest of the Joes' arrival.
When the other Joes show up, Bludd reveals he's booby-trapped the entire area, and begins setting off bombs left and right that consistently throw the Joes off. He gets the drop on Duke and nearly kills him, and though Ripcord mutates into his Bio-Viper form (long story) and attacks Bludd, Bludd—though shocked as all hell—nonetheless overcomes Ripcord and nearly executed him, before being jumped and knocked out by Duke.
When the Baroness and a small army of Cobra agents show up that Bludd called in for backup just in case he was beaten, Bludd quickly hops to his feet and jumps into the fray, at one point jumping aboard an out-of-control Cobra vehicle and saving Baroness's life, getting in some verbal banter with her in the process.
As the Joes ultimately manage to use Cobra's own weapons against them and destroy Bludd and Baroness's vehicle, the two are thrown into the swampy waters. Bludd promptly sneaks up on the Joes during their premature celebration, pulls a gun and nearly guns them down.......... unfortunately, in the worst timing and coincidence possible, a freaking crocodile leaps out of the water and grabs Bludd's gun arm, dragging him into the water.
A little later, as Baroness limps away from the scene? Bludd comes marching out of the swamp, stoic-faced as always, and as Baroness realizes in horror that Bludd's entire damn arm has been eaten by the crocodile, Bludd ends his time on the show by simply growling "Hope ya choke on it, sport."
Is Bludd magnificent in how he operates?
In sheer badass, unstoppable, Terminator-levels of "holy shit this guy won't stay down," yeah, Bludd is the top dog in the show, bar none. Current MB Cobra Commander might have the Wicked Cultured Chessmaster aspects down-pat, but Bludd's magnificent in every sense of the word.
Bludd is a one liner-spouting, damage-shrugging, super-persistent machine of a man, and he's depicted as the single most deadly and capable Cobra operative the Joes face in head-on warfare. He thinks on his feet plenty (tracking the Joes to the Cobra weapons cache and using his surrounding to fight them, blowing up the bridge when Heavy Duty and Roadblock are escaping), he plans out attacks (using the aforemention Joe duo to lure in the other Joes, staking out a family funeral for one of the Joes), and the sheer brutality this man goes through only to keep on pushing with his most notable reaction being a grimace is impressive as all hell. He gets thrown off moving vehicles, smashed by a forklift, his eye blinded in an explosion, his arm ripped off by a croc, and treats any and all of the above as a minor nuisance to his job.
Hell, even when faced with things he had absolutely zero idea nor anticipation of—like having to fight a ninja when he was expecting a college student, or being jumped by a Bio-Viper Ripcord—he reacts with mere "What the blazes?" Australian flare before quickly taking on the problem and actually overcoming several times over.
Put it this way: The only in-universe reason Bludd consistently fails to kill the Joes is because someone manages to pull a sneak attack on him and throw him off. Even when he has all the Joes dead to rights, it takes a damn crocodile attack to give them time to escape—an attack he survives and has a witty one-liner for, no less.
Is Bludd a bastard?
Yeah, I mean, it's fairly generic stuff of trying to kill the heroes and nearly murdering a college hacker, but Bludd's nasty enough, especially considering he outright brags that he's enjoyed a life of "racking up a bodycount" on Cobra's dime.
Final Verdict?
I think Bludd's one of those excellent "hands-on" MB baddies, a bit lacking in personal manipulations, but the sheer audacity of this unkillable Aussie and the fact that he's so damn competent are too much for me to say he's anything but magnificent.
Edited by Ravok on May 3rd 2020 at 1:03:52 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Goku Black
Bludd
Major Bludd
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Bludd.
Yeah a really bad Villainous Breakdown at the last minute is going to be about your equivalent here.