During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Thanks lads, Frank is long but not overly so. Please add if haven't already.
Alright, something I'd like to see settled, there are a number of CM-MB crossovers listed on Marvel Animation I just can't find myself comfortable with given their crimes. I touched on some of them briefly while they were going up but allow me to flesh out my thoughts here, these examples need some discussion if we want them to stay. From the top:
At The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes we've got:
- Loki is the God of Mischief and the true mastermind behind the mass supervillain breakout. After learning Odin had adopted him after killing his biological father, Loki felt betrayed and vowed to gain vengeance against his family. Manipulating disasters on Earth to attract the attention of his brother, Loki fooled Odin into thinking that Thor was shirking his duties on Asgard for personal gain. He convinced an army of Frost Giants to aid him in an assault on Asgard in an intentional bid to get banished to the Isle of Silence. As his manipulations led to a falling out between Thor and Odin, Loki took this opportunity to claim the Nine Realms for himself. He broke out several supervillains across four separate prisons, which gave Thor a reason not to return to Asgard. Loki stole Odin's powers for himself while he was in the Odinsleep and conquered most of the Nine Realms in Thor's absence. Using the Odinforce, Loki easily overpowered the Avengers when they foiled his plans to conquer the Earth. Taking his trickster qualities to dangerous levels, Loki is one of the most devious minds across the Nine Realms.
- Now, my big problem is, according to the same character's CM entry, we've got a plan that involves mass-enslavement of Asgardians and what's his motivation? Petty anger he wants to show he's better than Thor and that's even emphasized at the end of his latter entry. I can't label someone so self-centred and bitter with no good moral traits Magnificent, that's too much for me.
- Baron Heinrich Zemo is the leader of the Masters of Evil and has harbored a grudge against Captain America ever since he foiled his plans in World War II. Zemo relinquished control of HYDRA upon hearing of his return in the 21st century and vowed revenge against Captain America. Zemo infiltrated Avengers Mansion to steal a sample of his blood to help cure his exposure to Virus X. Upon being recruited by the Enchantress to form the Masters of Evil, Zemo quickly established himself as the team leader despite not having any superpowers. He led the Masters of Evil into a break-in of Avengers Mansion, managing to easily incapacitate most of the team. When the Enchantress unveiled her scheme to use the Norn Stones to lead the armies of the Nine Realms to conquer Earth, Zemo anticipated her eventual betrayal. After holding his own against Thor in a duel, Zemo placed a mind-control collar on the Enchantress in an attempt to control the approaching armies for himself. When she came seeking for her revenge, Zemo allied with the Avengers to take her out and kept a Norn Stone as insurance in case they failed. A massive opportunist, Zemo exploits the strengths and weaknesses of both his allies and enemies.
- Again, from the same character's CM entry, we've got him out as a Nazi who uses gas to combat Allied forces and paints him as a guy who'll jump sides to cowardly save his own skin. Sinclair is a Nazi-affilate with a fraction of the evil deeds and I had enough trouble getting him up. The fact he's on that side in WWII and deploys gas as a weapon has some serious unfortunate undertones and the side jumping to preserve himself just comes across as self-serving and despicable, as opposed to impressively smart or anything to me. Of all of them, I've gotta say this is the one I'm going to fight hardest to see go, I think he's disgusting.
From Avengers Assemble firstly:
- Nighthawk is the leader and self-described "architect" of the Supreme Squadron. After destroying his home world when they refused to accept their rule, Nighthawk traveled to Earth and infiltrated the ranks of SHIELD. He tried to recruit Sam into his ranks and stole contingency plans he made that detailed how to defeat the Avengers, using them to great effect. Nighthawk later assembled his old team and used the Reality Stone to create a world where they were respected heroes, while the Avengers were despised supervillains. Afterwards, Nighthawk separated the Avengers and rigged their tower to teleport New York into another dimension. When Sam released the built-up energy, it was funneled into the Citadel and revived Nuke just as Nighthawk planned. The Avengers were forced to fake their deaths, and Nighthawk led the Squadron Supreme to conquer the entire world in their absence. Prepared for every possibility, Nighthawk knows how to manipulate his opponents to play right into his hands.
- Okay, this dude is a Knight Templar nutcase who tries to force Earth to submit to his rule by threatening to systematically destroy populated cities. Hell, even this MB entry points out he flattened his home world for not accepting to kneel before his monstrous totalitarian regime. A KT who goes so far as to cross into CM territory is way too much of a lunatic to hit MB imo and after the side-swapping, gas-using Nazi, this is the close second in terms of entries I'd love to see smited.
- N'Jadaka is the leader of the Shadow Council and the T'Challa's former teacher. Believing that T'Challa was a weak and pampered ruler, N'Jadaka sought to overthrow him by finding the Crown of Wakanda. Taking advantage of his position as Wakanda's ambassador, N'Jadaka launched an attack on Atlantis that increased hostilities between the two nations. Expanding the Shadow Council's reach to various aspects of Wakandan society, N'Jadaka hacked into the palace's security system and made them vulnerable to attack. Now calling himself Killmonger, he had Princess Zanda infiltrate the Avengers by replacing Black Widow Killmonger planned with Zanda to sabotage the peace talks with Atlantis with another attack. He convinced T'Challa to save him from Atlantean imprisonment by telling where Natasha was and took the opportunity to break out and free Bask while he was away. Once Bask became Queen of Wakanda, Killmonger served as her advisor and was ready to betray her when once he realized he couldn't manipulate her. Always one step ahead, N'Jadaka proved he was the most dangerous foe T'Challa ever faced.
- Now, I haven't seen the show but again, this guy seems to get really petty when people don't submit to his idea that his nation should rule the world—even setting aside the Unfortunate Implications to such a plan—and like Nighthawk happily attacks populated areas to prove his point because, as his CM entry indicates, believes Might Makes Right. I'm sure there aren't outright racial undertones to his crimes given the age the show is meant for but again, this screams "maniac who crushes anything that dare go against him" not "charming mastermind".
I'll hear counterpoints but these guys are all... well, they're something else. If they were all Faux Affably Evil but not as nasty as the other CMs from their respective works, I could see it; if they had their Evil Is Petty, Knight Templar and It's All About Me traits but they were offset by having loved ones, good intentions or nobility, I could see it but as they are they all sound likes cases of "It's dangerous when lunatics or cowards can get this smart", not helped by the fact that all share their works with MBs who have positive moral traits and I've had trouble seeing them listed for a while now.
Thoughts?
Edited by 43110 on Apr 25th 2020 at 1:03:23 PM
Lizzid people!
Mmm...yeah, I agree that Zemo can go because of the usage of a gas. Loki...kind of can go either way with that one. I mean, the pettiness is valid, but kind of sounds less bad then the other outright lunatics.
Idk if you can be a Complete Monster by virtue of Knight Templar or Evil Is Petty traits being turned up that high. Even if the crimes aren’t what bumps them, I don’t think it’s the right tone or personality, similar to how Killian got bumped for attitude.
I also take problem with the fact that both sets of examples share the work with characters who have the intelligence, charm and better moral traits and less substantive crimes.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 25th 2020 at 12:40:56 PM
Lizzid people!
I had't watched any of these series, but the counterarguments you've provided does make me lean towards cutting them.
Cool, floor's open.
The wifi here sucks
I'm leaning cut on all of them but I haven't seen the shows myself so I'm open to counter arguments. Def cut Zemo though
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Edit: It's a virus Zemo tries to deploy against the Allies. Nevertheless, that's biological warfare utilized by a Nazi, doesn't diminish my stance.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
It's been years since I have seen Earth's Mightiest Heroes. I'm a little fuzzy on Loki. But definitely cut Zemo. I have never seen Assemble so I don't feel strongly about those either ways.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Cut Zemo. I really don't think a nazi can be a true MB, as they are generally too horrific to count
—signature not found—
I'm Sad Frogerson.
As someone who EP all these guys... I'm not sure what to say.
Honestly, Loki is the one I felt the most ambivalent about. He was the master mind behind the first season, but he becomes really petty by the season's end. Him screaming about Odin once he's defeated and planning on executing people once he's in charge diminishes any charm he may have had, and his final appearance basically has him at the mercy of Amora and Surtur's plans. I'd be okay with a cut.
Zemo is... an ambiguous case. The show never outright says he was part of the Nazis, as WWII was shown as a fight between the Allies and HYDRA. I think its something that's inferred more than anything. Zemo's cruel and willing to betray his allies, but... I dunno.
Nighthawk was someone who does treat his teammates as disposable, and maybe I was blinded by how clever he was? He didn't come across as someone who enjoyed inflicting pain, just felt it was a necessary evil to accomplish their goals. Same thing with N'Jadaka.
I dunno, maybe I have no clue what makes a MB/CM crossover. Does Darkrai even count anymore? I proposed him too. Because I'm starting to second guess myself on some of the candidates I proposed.
Edited by chasemaddigan on Apr 25th 2020 at 1:32:04 PM
Yeah, if that's the case I've gotta stay with my cut all feeling. Biological warfare is awful and it's not like there's a greater good to his purposes or anything; Loki sounds like a petulant brat regardless of how clever he is and increasing temper tantrums are a problem; Nighthawk and Killmonger sound way too much like vile oppressors and even if they can outwardly keep a calm face I strongly think once you've hit Knight Templar Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard become a one or the other, not both. I don't recall Darkrai having any pettiness, uber vile crimes or a "smite everything" attitude, what lends you concern there? I know he shares the game with a non-CM MB but he didn't sound like he got trounced in magnificence just by Dusknoir's presence. You've done a lot of good work and FWIW I think you've got a good head about what comprises this trope, these just happened to be a set I thought could use a second look, please don't feel your confidence ought to be compromised, you've done lots of good work here Chase.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 25th 2020 at 1:36:29 PM
The Unknown Unknown
Zemo is definitely a cut sifting through the given info. I'm inclined to cut Loki as well since Evil Is Petty.
Could go either way with Nighthawk and N'Jadaka.
Edited by erazor0707 on Apr 25th 2020 at 1:41:37 PM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Yeah, I'm fine with whatever decision the thread comes too. I will say, with the exception of N'Jadaka, most of those villains I saw labeled as Magnificent Bastards elsewhere on the wiki, so I thought they would make good candidates. I'm fine with Loki and Zemo being cut. Nighthawk and N'Jadaka I could go either way at this point. I guess this is a YMMV trope, so there's bound to be disagreements.
I appreciate people bringing a more critical eye, even for characters that have been voted up. I can ensure you I'm not taking any of this personally. I'm making a note to be a bit more scrutinizing when it comes to crossover villains in the future. 
Edited by chasemaddigan on Apr 25th 2020 at 1:57:47 PM
Caesar
Though I haven't seen EMH in years, Zemo can definitely be cut, while Loki—though I'm a bit more iffy on him—can probably go as well.
As the one who proposed Nighthawk for Complete Monster? Yeah, unfortunately I don't think he's this trope. He's brilliant, strategic, and a villainous Batman Expy...but, unfortunately? He's highly petty and cruel, as he blew up his homeworld (in a pretty harsh way, forcing a resistant Spectrum to use his own powers to do it even while the man screamed in protest) with a smile on his face because they wouldn't cow to him, and he tries to repeat the same on Earth with zero hesitation. A heavy point is also made that Nighthawk treating his teammates as "tools" and completely disregarding and ignoring them in the finale is what undoes him.
He's completely taken down while proclaiming that his teammates are nothing but disposable tools...only to then try to beat a hasty retreat while yelling for help from those teammates, and when he realizes they've all been beaten, he has no recourse except to try to run away, which utterly fails and gets him thrashed by the Avengers into defeat while they solidify that friends and teammwork are what let them win, while Nighthawk's horrible personality was his undoing.
Haven't seen N'Jadaka's episodes, so can't comment on those fully, but leaning cut as well.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 25th 2020 at 11:06:37 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Goku Black
I think zemo and loki (his last apperance where he turns into a complete tool and victim would probably be a bit too much) are fine going.
Fine with killy and Nighthawk either way. Wouldnt mind a second opinion from somone whose seen it.
Also dont worry chase. Mistakes are made sometimes. Dont worry about it.
Edit: Cut Nighthawk then. ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
. Though it was a bit weird you posted this as I was typing. 
Edited by miraculous on Apr 25th 2020 at 11:08:50 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Glad to hear it because I like having you around.
As for the latter two my issue comes down to the fact that Knight Templars are by virtue delusional in their villainy and these two are clearly lacking in the actual having good things happen as indicated by their status as CMs.
The wifi here sucks
Yeah I'm more firmly leaning cut on Zemo Loki and Nighthawk now. Killmonger I'm still iffy on but leaning cut.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
I'm definitely for cutting the first three but Killmonger doesn't seem that much worse to me than Darkseid from DCAU. Different franchises, I know, but similar heinousness standards.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 25th 2020 at 2:22:26 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I'll say keep Killmonger, but cut the other three.
Do you mind expanding on that? I'm interested in your points but to me he sounds like a brutal totalitarian out to crush the world so he can rule the strongest nation as it crushes others by force.
Me or Falcon?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Both... I'm interested in what everybody has to say.
Lizzid people!
Though the whole discussion on pettiness for one of the Marvel baddies does remind me to look into a show I've had on the backburner for a while.
Yeah...that doesn't really undermine the fact that he is still a totalitarian trying to exert his power.
Now that I finally got some spare time this morning let's get this write up done.
Assassin
, hosted by Neal "Koibu
" Erickson: The eponymous Assassin, as played by Robert Barrera, is the most skilled agent in the Cult of Malkis, dedicated to spreading chaos to prevent societal corruption and stagnation. A skilled actor and musician, the Assassin disguises himself as a traveling bard to avoid suspicion and uses his trained charisma and countless guises to gather all the information he needs to perform his hits. His brilliance is shown through such hits as getting thrown in jail as a drunk to murder his currently arrested target, tricking local guards to kill his target after framing them for murder, and disgracing and drowning a cleric and making it look like a suicide. Even when tasked with "sending a message", he does his job well by massacring an ambassador's caravan and framing another nation or burning down an inn with a paladin inside after publicly shaming her. Despite his often cruel methods and willingness to kill innocents during his missions, the Assassin is still shown to have humanity through his interactions with children and his pet cat.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Apr 25th 2020 at 7:01:37 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.