During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Bunawar, Darth Ferb (nice catch), Evil Car
You might know, but the remake of The Last of Us is coming up September 2th (a day after my birthday, lol). Given the trailer, I doubt the plot will change enough for a keeper (or writing up a 2nd version of Tess), but it's worth keeping an eye out.
Woagh
to Bunawar and Evil Carl.
I have one I'm not sure of, but from One Piece, I give you:
Corazon. Donquixote Rocinante.
Who is Rocinante?
Affectionately known as "Roci" by those closest to him, Rocinante from born the second son of Donquixote Homing, a Celestial Dragon who decided to take his family and live as a human man. Unfortunately, Homing did not understand the hatred people had for the Dragons. Thanks to Doflamingo's arrogance, the family was uncovered and attacked, forced to flee. After being brutalized and tortured, Donquixote murdered Homing and took his head back to Mariejois to buy his way back to the Dragons, who refused. Left on his own, Rocinante was found by none other than Sengoku of the marines, who took him in and raised him as his own child. Rocinante became a Marine commander, until he heard of his brother's return, leading the Donquixote pirates. Rocinante decided to go undercover, having eaten a Devil Fruit of pure silence so he could block any sounds. He pretended to be mute from the trauma and was eventually granted the title of "Corazon," one of the four chief executives of the family with his predecessor Vergo on a secret mission.
Deep undercover, Corazon began to feed information to the marines, resulting in them keeping the heat on Doflamingo. He also acted as both a bumbling dolt and highly violent and abusive to the children who tried to join the crew, scaring them off from the life of a pirate. His intent? Keep them away from Doflamingo. When Law arrived, though, he refused to be swayed and actually stabbed Corazon in retribution. Knowing what Doflamingo would do to him for this, Corazon kept it silent for two years until he learned Law had the horrible White Lead disease. Deciding to set out with Law and knowing what'd happen to him if he remained, he kidnapped Law and began to travel from hospital to hsopital across the land, but nobody would treat Law, enraging Corazon into burning down numerous hospitals and attacking the doctors who refused.
Little by little, Corazon and Law bonded, with the kindness and empathy reaching the jaded young Law. It was soon after that Doflamingo got back in touch and informed Rocinante of a terrific happenstance: they'd found a Devil Fruit, the Op-Op, which grants the user powers of surgery and medical abilities. With it, Dofy said, Corazon could eat it and cure Law.
No fool, Rocinante instantly realized two things: 1, Dofy likely realized his betrayal since it was mighty suspicious no naval ships kept showing up with Roci away. 2, he intended for Roci to eat the Op-Op Fruit and sacrifice his life to provide his brother with immortality....and as he'd already eaten a Fruit, he'd die if he tried. Instead? Corazon stole the fruit, taking back injuries, to feed it to Law so he could cure himself. With the navy arriving for the Fruit and Doflamingo closing in, Rocinante gave Law a message on the Doflamingo family to see them finished for good.
But fate is a fickle thing and the first naval officer Law saw and confided in was the undercover Vergo. A shocked Corazon said his name upon seeing him, making Vergo realize something was amiss...and upon reading the note, he realized Corazon's betrayal and brutally beat him and Law down before fetching Doflamingo. Limping away, Corazon realized he was done for.
But he could save Law. Sealing him in a chest, he made sure to smile at him, so it would be the last thing Law ever saw from him and told Law he loved him, and used a spell of silence. When Doflamingo arrived, Rocinante lied to his brother Law had fled, while subtly using the conversation to reveal the truth of Doflamingo's evil to Law, as well as convince Doflamingo Law was gone and free. The brothers pulled guns on one another, with Rocinante proclaiming his true allegiances. The two fired, but only Doflamingo's shot hit.
Convinced Law was gone, and with the navy closing in, Doflamingo fled and Rocinante held on every second to keep his silence spell, with Law unable to hold back his tears and screams. Peacefully smiling, Rocinante died, knowing Law was free.
Mitigating issues?
Okay. So. Rocinante might be one of the kindest people in One Piece, but he does have some quirks and a temper. He does abuse kids, albeit to scare them away from the life of piracy. And his reaction to the doctors being dicks to Law is to nearly kill them or destroy their hospitals. So...bastard enough? I'd say so there.
It should go without saying but he's a great guy otherwise. He's a hero who put himself at risk while constantly foiling his tyrannical elder brother's plans. He truly wants to save the children he can and his defining feature is his love for Law. Notably even after Law stabs him, Rocinante doesn't blame him and later weeps over the pain Law's been through. Maybe his only flaw is being unable to shoot Doflamingo dead, when Dofy has zero such compunction towards his brother. But Rocinante dies peaceful and content, having saved Law and granting him freedom. Notably, Law names his crew "The Heart Pirates" in honor of Rocinante and never forgets him. Rocinante can be silly sometimes (his clumsiness is not an act) and his final smile to Law is, of course, goofy as all hell.
The only flaw in his scheming isn't really his fault. He had no idea Vergo was undercover and his own thoughts even note how unbelievably unlucky it is that of the literally tens of thousands of marines, Law happened to run into Dofy's one lackey when he lets out a shocked "Vergo!?" upon seeing him. Even that might've been possible to smooth over if not for Law having giving him the intel.
But no, his planning is amazing. Even to the last breath, when Doflamingo thinks Rocinante is talking to him, he's actually delivering vital info to Law. The guy, let's not forget, is actually the protege of Sengoku and his surrogate son. It shows.
Conclusion?'
If we find him bastard enough,. I say absolutely
Here's a writeup for Indrakai
Tales Of Kaimere: "Trickster's Gambit": Indrakai is a trickster spirit of Pakardiant folklore renowned for his knack for bending the rules of nature to his whim without outright breaking them. He tricks and steals fire from the sky people so that the Kaimerans could use it to keep warm, later transforming a dying witch into a skin-changer to help ward off the demon Olikideu. Taking an interest in Ja'Kosi as she awaits the forest's judgment, Indrakai ingratiates himself to the girl, helping keep her alive over the three-day period and hearing her stories with the ulterior motive of getting her to admit to her act of murder. Killing her vengeful former lover Kiriq when he tries to murder her and make it look like a firebird did it, he succeeds in getting Ja'Kosi to confess to the crime, berating her for not owning up to her violent nature and punishing her by transforming her into a mindless demon to serve his interests, telling her that he held nothing against her and fading into mist with a grin on his face.
Been a while since I read the arc: How played for laughs is the burning of hospitals? It is one piece so its not without seriousness, but I'm wondering if it's played similarly to sakura accidentally destroying her house. Like I get the sense the doctors are all asshole victims and are there any patients of the hospitals shown escaping the rubble or something to that effect?
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 10th 2022 at 11:27:24 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The hospital destruction isn't played for laughs much, beyond some of the doctors' over the top fear of Law's disease. They're meant to emphasize how tragic a situation Law is in with how every doctor is essentially leaving him for dead. We also don't see any people being escorted out of the hospital when they're destroyed.
Also, Rosinante literally kidnaps Law in order to take him to said hospitals. I'd say he's morally gray enough for me to give him a
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Jun 10th 2022 at 11:40:20 AM
The kidnapping to save his life is not something I'm inclined to see as too bad nor the abusing kids especially cause it's purpose is too keep kids away from deflamingo(quite reasonable). But I guess I'll give a very leaning for the hospital destruction.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 10th 2022 at 11:46:57 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ultimate Moral Compass
Bunawar and Rocinante
- "The Skyfoogle", from The Hypnotizer, by Michael Rosen: The Man goes from town to town promising townsfolk the sight of the mythical Skyfoogle. Paying people to witness the creature in his tent, before the show can begin, the Man frantically warns the audience to evacuate because the Skyfoogle’s escaped. Once the people leave the tent in fear, they realize that the Man, their money, and the supposed Skyfoogle have all vanished, with the latter having never existed.
『 』
I found this entry in Azur Lane. Very confident it was unapproved.
- Magnificent Bastard: Friedrich der Grosse certainly takes the cake by the time Rondo at Rainbow's End takes place. She sets up a plan behind the Commander's back that gets the Royal Navy to cooperate with them to learn the truth of Scapa Flow; arranges for the Sakura Empire to show up with the pretense of cooperation; arranges for the other navies to target them by forcing the Commander to follow the Northern Parliament in their intent to attack Ironblood; successfully creates new Ironblood shipgirls based on the data stored in a Mirror Sea; draws in one of the main Sirens while the other navies are also encircling Scapa Flow — just to set the table for the return of Bismarck and the declaration of Ironblood cutting ties with the Sirens — and said plan snares the Siren in the middle of several combined fleets, while using the Mirror Sea to draw out her mainframe into the open and thus making her truly vulnerable for once; all while forcing the Sakura Empire into a corner, and forcing Akagi to act against her will towards the Sirens because they were left no other choice. By the end of the event, Friedrich bows out and claims her days of leading in the front are over now that Bismarck is back and that she can go back do what she does best, to work away from the spotlight.
It was not. Also yes to Darth Ferb, Evil Carl, Bunawar and Rocinante.
Yes to Bunawar, Evil Carl, and Rocinante.
Edited by Klavice on Jun 10th 2022 at 2:48:29 AM
Yes to Darth Ferb, Evil Carl, Bunawar, and Rocinante.
to Bunawar and Rocinante
A total has-been.
Darth Ferb and Mr. Evil For Extra Credit, Bunawar, Rocinante, Astair, Indrakai, Alyona, Zatanna/Dr. Fate, and Ruth.
Hell yeah Origins Giovanni. What seals the deal is that in his first battle with Red, he wins and seemingly gets away with what he wanted out of Silph Co. (a major case of Adaptational The Bad Guy Wins there), and how in the second battle he's pushed to his limits and fights to a very near victory, and then not only gracefully gives Red the badge but keeps his word to disband Team Rocket and stop hurting Pokemon, even considering starting over as a legit trainer, making him probably the only sincerely redeemable incarnation of Giovanni outside the original Gen 1 games.
Edited by ANewMan on Jun 10th 2022 at 7:23:00 AM
Lies and Violence!
Darth Ferb, Evil Carl, Bunawar, Rocinante.
What's the work?
Have two from A Practical Guide to Evil for tonight. If you forgot, the protagonist is a girl named Catherine Foundling; tropes dictate reality; character archetypes from these tropes manifest in people as "Names" that give them superpowers; and the present-day conflict is kicked off by the evil Dread Empire of Praes conquering the Kingdom of Callow. Cat, a citizen of the latter, rises up the ranks of the former after coming to see rebellion as futile, putting down a few of those before gaining control of Callow and splitting from Praes along with whatever exceptional psychopaths she's managed to win over.
And then an ancient lich king and his perpetually drunk nemesis decide to take a hammer to that whole "being alive" thing humanity has going for itself. We'll get to that later, but for now:
Who is Masego, the Hierophant?
The Literal-Minded magic expert of Cat's posse, Masego is the adopted son of the infamous Warlock and his incubus husband. Having been raised in a utopia pocket dimension for the first nine years of his life, Masego's parents unfortunately didn't realize the... well, to put it lightly, utter trauma that would be induced by seeing his entire world end when they finally decided to reintroduce him to reality and allow said dimensional construct to crumble. Suddenly faced with a bit of early nihilism, Masego became obsessed with studying the inherent artificiality of the universe and finding a way to go beyond it, taking to magical studies as his father's Apprentice.
Later joining up with Cat's war campaign to take down a growing rebellion, Masego quickly proves himself to be indispensable with his powerful sorcery, locating spies in the army; utterly annihilating enemy soldiers; and setting up defenses against infernal taint when fighting demons. While demons are so powerful as to corrupt reality itself, Masego finds a way to work around their corruption and is able to restrain a drop of its essence for further study, later releasing it to kill some more demons. And then redirect energy through said demons' bindings to inflict torturous Body Horror on their summoners, so... that's nice. Eventually getting into war with the fae, Masego learns so much from the conflict that by the time he lays eyes on the Arcadian sun, the godhead of the Summer Queen herself, he transitions from the Apprentice into the Hierophant — the "vivisector of miracles." The promotion apparently means he also has to rip out his eyes, which he does with zero hesitation whatsoever.
...Unfortunately, his recent exceptional academic progress is soon interrupted. Having stolen some of the memories of the ancient lich known as the Dead King in an unrelated misadventure, Masego returns home to help his parents prepare the Dread Empire's magical defenses for an invading crusade. Ignoring their desperate warnings to get rid of those memories in barely restrained rage that they would try to keep him away from the knowledge that could help him further understand the universe, Masego is left insane with grief when A) the crusaders summon a lesser god in their siege of the city, and B) his parents blow up themselves (and the city, but not like they cared about that) to kill it and save his life. His weakened mental state leaves him vulnerable to the influence of the Dead King's memories, which have him gather the screaming souls of the city to conduct a massive ritual—supposedly to reconstitute his incubus father, but really to help the Dead King uncover the motives of his Arch-Enemy, the Wandering Bard, and in the process kill a bunch of Masego's friends by dislodging a piece of the faerie realm and dropping it onto the countryside.
Thankfully, Indrani allows herself to be killed by the possessed Masego, knowing it would shock him out of his trance (she gets better). Less thankfully, while Masego is able to fight off the Dead King, doing so also erases his magic. This leaves Masego... well, still a prodigy sorcerer with greater magical knowledge than basically everyone alive who isn't a lich king, and with what was effectively months of apprenticeship under said lich king. He obviously feels quite traumatized and violated by the loss, but practically speaking the only major difference is that he can't set things on fire with his mind anymore. After a night of rest, Masego immediately gets to work on how to exact his revenge on the lich:
- Option A: Desecrate the corpse of the heroine known as the Saint of Swords, reforging her soul into a blade dubbed the Severance capable of killing the undead god.
- Option B: Take advantage of the chaos going on in the fae realm to steal the Crown of Autumn and convert it into a "gift" the Dead King will quite literally be unable to refuse should it be offered to him, stripping him of his powers and leaving him eternally trapped in a prison of Masego's choice.
Skimming over some other stuff, he:
- Sets up a war R&D site displaced in another pocket dimension to research/keep up with the Dead King's new sorceries.
- Comes up with a way to steal the Wandering Bard's control over the stories that govern this setting.
- Figures out how the weird Night magic of the drow works after only a few dissections, which he uses to help Cat and Ivah kill the false god Kurosiv, repair the inherent flaws in the drow goddesses' divinity, and effectively raise an angelic choir in service to evil. And then he gets his magic back.
When the war reaches the Dead King's capital, Masego plays an integral role in slipping Cat past his defenses. The Autumn Crown is used to imprison the Wandering Bard, the Severance is used to behead the Dead King, and when his soul tries to escape Masego grabs it out of the air and eats it whole, stealing the lich's divinity.
Having attained godhood, the Hierophant, vivisector of miracles, slayer and raiser of divine beings... goes to teach at Cat's school for heroes and villains, and what little snippets we get in the epilogues make me long for an entire spin-off centered on these little shits.
A great many students breathed in sharply. Some second thoughts were had.
"And Hasenbach insists I have to teach something if I want my funding for the experiment," he continued. "Which is ridiculous, given the obvious benefits."
A boy in the front was the next called on. "What's your experiment?" he eagerly asked.
"The technicalities are beyond any of you," Hierophant said, "but on the submission scroll I summed it up as ‘forcing apotheosis onto a pig’."
There was a snort from a girl. "Sir, you do know everyone still calls it Deicide and Applied Blasphemy right?” she said.
“As they should,” Hierophant muttered, “it is a much better name.”
“Seneschal Hasenbach is threatening to cut the lunacy fund again, isn’t she?”
“It’s Catherine this time,” Hierophant sighed. “She says that feeding the Swine King to the fae wasn’t enough to get the House of Light to drop the matter so we need to ‘tread carefully for a bit’.”
“It wasn’t even a real god,” Isabel Malanza complained. “We only got halfway there.”
Is he magnificent?
Masego is, no exaggeration, a prodigy in all matters of sorcery. He may be completely apathetic to politics, military strategy, or... well, basically anything that doesn't have to do with his research, but he more than makes up for it with just how invaluable his magical know-how is. Even without his magic he's still able to come up with multiple feasible methods of killing gods, and has one of the most epic moments in the series when he gets revenge on the Dead King and ascends to godhood by eating his soul.
Is he a bastard?
Let me just put this here:
Kegan’s eyes went cold.
“Has your esteemed father not put enough of my people under the knife to discern some truths?” she said.
Ah, sarcasm. She should know better than to think that would work on Masego. He had a decent read on those he knew well, but strangers?
“No,” Hierophant replied frankly. “He is under orders never to grab a member of the Watch without legal cause, which has been very difficult since the Conquest.”
“How sad for him,” Kegan replied blandly.
“That’s very kind of you,” Masego said, sounding surprised. “It has been very irritating to have such a fascinating mystery within reach but forbidden from study.”
Wait are you just saying that Masego has a heavy case of For Science!? Who is Kegan again?
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 10th 2022 at 9:14:12 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
He’s apathetic to morals in his research and regularly helped his father dissect people even as a child is what I was saying. Kegan isn’t important.
So yes he does have a heavy case of For Science!, or I guess For Fantasy. Okay Masego.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 10th 2022 at 9:17:28 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Writeup for Lady Astair.
- The Winter Queen: Lady Astair is the founder of a large chain of orphanages where every child's talents are discovered and nurtured. Those of her fosterlings whose gifts are best suited for politics, the military, or the police, she trains to rise to the highest ranks and push for the liberal reforms she feels the Crapsack World desperately needs. Through one of her alumni, a Femme Fatale, she manipulates two rich students into bequeathing their fortunes to her and then arranges their deaths: as she puts it, "one can't clean the Augean stables without getting dirty". She likewise uses her other various alumni to try killing and then brainwashing Erast Fandorin when he gets close to the truth in his investigation; when that fails, she calmly accepts her defeat and, before blowing herself up, even lets Fandorin go, making him promise not to hunt down her kids (unbeknownst to him, she has already made arrangements to have a bomb sent to him in case he didn't keep his word). A Granny Classic who genuinely loves her kids and genuinely respects and pities Fandorin, Lady Astair has also been The Chessmaster behind worldwide politics for decades.
Lies and Violence!
Who is Vivienne Dartwick, the Thief?
The daughter of a minor Callowan baron spared in the conquest, Vivienne lost her mother at a young age when she "tragically died in a hunting accident" (and just so happened to be part of a rebellion against the Empire). Enraged at both the murder and the fact that the Empire had the gall to fine her family for it, Vivienne resolved to take from them ten times what they had been forced to pay. Managing to gain an apprenticeship with one of the local members of Callow's Thieves Guild, Vivienne embarked on numerous missions to rob the nearby Praesi lords blind, becoming so brazen yet so successful she earned the Name of Thief — something she learned when she accidentally transported an entire cart of stolen taxes into Hammerspace.
The Thief makes her proper debut in the story as part of a gallant Five-Man Band out to lead a rebellion against the Empire. The only members that are actually important are the leader, the anti-heroic Lone Swordsman, and an unassuming drunk by the name of the Wandering Bard. Thief has a bit part for most of the rebellion, doing things like stealing an entire fleet of Praesi ships, but gains a bigger role when she begins to confide in the Lone Swordsman her suspicions about the Bard, believing she may have played up her drunken antics to intentionally invoke the Plucky Comic Relief trope and ensure her survival over that of two of their comparatively less memorable companions. She tries to save him from the Bard's manipulations, encouraging him to embrace the "heroic" part of "anti-hero" and successfully getting him to free a group of enemy slave soldiers rather than kill them, but the Bard has her hooks in too deep and uses his self-loathing to manipulate him into calling down an angel to Mind Rape an entire city full of innocents into taking up arms against Praes. Thief is absolutely disgusted by his plan but reluctantly promises to stick around long enough to defend against Cat's siege of the city, dropping that aforementioned stolen fleet in place of the city's gate when they manage to knock it down before briefly agreeing to help Cat stop the Praesi noble Akua Sahelian, who has unleashed an army of devils to slaughter everyone.
Long story short, the rebellion is squashed, the Lone Swordsman is killed, and the Bard fucks off to phase two of her plan. The Thief sticks around to usurp control of Callow's Thieves Guild, emptying Cat's entire treasury while she's away and infiltrating the city Akua has been given rule over to spy on whatever sick experiments she's up to. However, when she and Cat come face to face again, Cat points out the stupidity of rebelling when there are a million different factions planning to invade Callow and convinces her to work with them against the fae and Akua. The alliance is initially tenuous, but if there's one thing that can bind them together it's the fact that they're both Callowan, and as Callowans, the level of petty spite they share for foreigners trying to tell them what to do makes Thawne's rivalry with the Flash look civil. Thief has one of the most iconic moments in the series when she steals the sun to defeat the forces of Summer, and later manages to distract Akua so Cat can rip out the noble's heart and enslave her ghost.
Converting her criminal underlings into a spy network, Thief and Cat work to establish bindings on the latter for the former to control her should she ever be overwhelmed by the power of the Winter fae or get possessed by Akua—Thief may seem like the least trustworthy person for a job like this, being a former heroine and the greenest member of Cat's villainous Five-Man Band, but she's also the one with the strongest moral compass. Cat's other minions are either completely apathetic to the politics they would need to handle in her absence or are orcs who see nothing wrong with cannabalism. A little subtlety is required, and Thief's the one least likely to go mad with power. Not to say she isn't a ruthless bastard, as she leaks fake plans to partition some important land for commoners. This goads the local rebellious Callowan nobles into hiring an assassin to kill Cat's Dragon, Hakram, so she'll be forced to rely on them instead. Thief instead uses this as an excuse to have them all executed.
Skipping ahead a bit, and Vivienne starts to have a crisis of faith. Cat's left her as regent to the throne while she goes off to conquer the drow, but Vivienne begins to question her worth. She's accomplished more good for Callow as a godforsaken collaborator than any of her gallivanting around playing Robin Hood. What the hell does she think she can do that any of the other people the Cat's assembled could accomplish far easier? Her lack of confidence combined with her recent failure to play the role of Thief leads to her losing her Name, but Hakram comes by to visit before she can bolt. They have a bit of an antagonistic history, so, long story short, he convinces her to stay in a calm and measured manner.
The knife came down, hard enough to shake the table beneath, and carved into the orc’s only flesh wrist. Blood spurted as Vivienne’s blade scraped across bones, fear and astonishment taking hold of her.
“Adjutant, what-”
“My word is of no worth to you,” Hakram Deadhand calmly interrupted her, face pale and taught with pain. “That is not unwise. Amends must be made. So when you next doubt your value, I want you to remember this: when the choice came, I judged you well worth a hand.”
The orc’s wrist pressed down, bone shattered and Adjutant’s black blood crept across the table as his hand came fully severed.
This jolts Vivienne to get back to business, and she leads a force to rescue Cat's mentor's army and add them to Callow's allies (this backfires immediately, but only due to the shit luck of a lich king sabotaging their teleportation system in the exact area they teleport to, which I find excusable). Cat returns to save them and puts together a cockamamie plan to fend off the armies of both the Tyrant of Helike and the Grey Pilgrim, which Vivienne quickly puts together after reading a confusing letter that doesn't actually explain any of this plan: while Cat's busy moving her own pawns into place, Vivienne surrenders the entire Army of Callow to the Pilgrim, then negotiates their release to fight off the encroaching Tyrant. Because of a metric ton of politics I don't think anyone wants to hear me rattle on about, this convinces the Pilgrim to work with them to take on the Dead King and make peace.
When the war against the Dead King begins, Cat makes Vivienne the heiress to the throne of Callow so she can handle all those obnoxious politics Cat despises with all of her being, which she does quite efficiently. She doesn't take to the battlefield often, but when she does it's always in the most epic way possible, and the army soon begins to regard her as a proper princess—something that evolves into a Name when she convinces an entire legion of former Callowans who betrayed the kingdom to Praes in the conquest to turn against the Dread Empire.
Yadda yadda yadda, more fighting, an epic duel with one of the Dead King's revenants wherein Vivienne unlocks a power to ensure she quite literally will never be able to fall for the same trick twice, and Hakram is crippled by a spell. Masego can restore what was lost, but because the Dead King is a crafty son of a bitch, it will come at a price.
“My turn,” she said. “The choice came, Hakram.”
The curse boiled out, Vivienne Dartwick’s left hand turning to ash until there was not even bone left above her wrist.
“And I judge you well worth a hand,” she finished.
In the aftermath of the war, Cat steps down and Vivienne is Named Queen—but not before a special announcement, as Vivienne declares her dynasty will be that of the House Foundling. An orphan reclaimed Callow from their enemies and led them into battle, so should the kingdom ever be lost again, an orphan, a foundling, will always be ready to restore dignity to the crown. And so Queen Vivienne rules Callow wisely and justly for many years, leading them into the new golden age of peace and prosperity for all...
Well, peace and prosperity so long as the elves stay lazy and continue to subcontract their ethnic cleansings out to the giant rat monsters, but that's another story.
Is she magnificent?
Not at first, but she grows into it. Vivienne is a mite overconfident for most of the first half of the series; she still has good gambits such as taking over the Thieves Guild and substituting a destroyed barricade with an entire fleet of ships from her Hammerspace, but she's not nearly as poker-faced a manipulator as she thinks she is—when she first meets the Grey Pilgrim in the time before Cat goes off to conquer the drow, he easily sees through her lies and she accidentally gives away a key strategic weakness.
Despite this, she matures significantly once she loses the Name of Thief, reforging herself into an expert politician and Lady of War capable of achieving crushing victories both in diplomacy and on the battlefield. I skimmed over a lot of that stuff just to save space, but it's honestly quite amazing how fast she adapts to the complicated politics, and her duel with the Dead King's Seelie is short but nonetheless fucking epic.
Is she a bastard?
Again, she initially struggles with this part. The reason Vivienne is given so much trust so quickly is because she's the Token Good Teammate with a reluctance for killing. Her regular thefts aren't too bad when they're done to the Dread Empire; her rule over the criminal underworld props her up but is too offscreen to stand out by its lonesome; her assistance in the Lone Swordsman's brainwashing ploy has the significant caveat that she's disgusted by what he's doing and will leave as soon as it's completed; and she tries to help facilitate Cat’s plan to craft a story around a kid so he’ll murder Malicia’s Dragon, which is framed less as giving an Asshole Victim her just desserts and more removing an otherwise decent person from the board to accomplish their own goals. It establishes she’s still ruthless as the Princess, but is still a bit meh.
...But then we get to the short story "Court," wherein she rounds up as many nobles as she can into a single faction, goads them into ordering an assassination based on false information, and uses that as an excuse to have all of them executed for treason. If you're wondering whether they're Asshole Victims, Vivienne makes it clear she wanted to skip the goading part entirely and drum up false charges to execute them, only staying her hand because of Cat's insistence they make sure the nobles would really go that far. The situation perfectly encapsulates just how ruthless Vivienne is willing to be in support of her patriotism, and, propped up by above stuff, is more than enough to push her over the line.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jun 16th 2022 at 9:25:32 AM
Sure to those. We done with Practical Guide now?
Vivienne.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think we have the dread king lich, but I haven't been keeping up if Emerald was convinced to not EP them or not.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 10th 2022 at 10:59:18 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
I know we rejected a version of constantine because it was a plot summary. This has more than that, but his story is only ended in a similar way, so I'm not sure.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid