During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Creasy
Theirs actually a Bollywood remake of this btw. He'd probably count their too if your interested. It's called Ek Ajnabee
Edited by miraculous on Sep 26th 2021 at 3:09:12 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to he who inspired Tae-sik... who inspired his own Bollywood remake keeper.
Goku Black
The cycle of remakes and inspirations. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Just wait until the creators of John Wick branch out, they'll re-cover ALL of it.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 26th 2021 at 6:11:40 AM
Seems like an easy to Creasy. In my experience this archetype is very good fodder for MBs.
Edited by jjjj2 on Sep 26th 2021 at 6:14:41 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Shin Megami Tensei IV
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Creasy. I love that movie.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
Oh btw the order of the Warehouse 13 characters should be (I'm getting the grammar checked for Bennet as we speak.)
- Warehouse 13:
- H.G Wells.
- Season 4A: Brother Adrian
- Season 4B: Bennet Sutton.
James when I eventually do him. Should go at the top.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 26th 2021 at 3:18:43 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
A Bollywood film based on a Korean film based on an American film set in Mexico based on a book set in Italy? If this was 10 years ago, I'd make some sort of Inception joke.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Based on the EP, to Creasy.
to Brother Adrian, Lelouch, Emma Carlisle, Jack Kelso, the Maelstrom, David Lincoln, Lethe and John W. Creasy.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Creasy. (watched that less then a month ago actually)
Abstain on Lethe.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Dominator.
Been a while since I saw that movie. I’d definitely give Creasy a
Gotta love Jaws!
Won't drag this out, but I would like to say everyone that it is now my birthday! Well, according to my timezone anyway. Don't have to wish me happy birthday if you don't want to, but just wanted to say!
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Ultimate Moral Compass
Creasy
Just finished watching Copshop, super cool movie that I can't recommend enough. PM me to hear potential candidates.
"No running in the halls!"
Ok so weeks ago I've reserved this game for both effortposts on this and the CM thread. However, the EPs have been delayed for quite some time due to the game being REALLY long and some game breaking bugs(and the fact that I literally had to restart from scratch a run because my run may have been too bugged to continue). I have not beat this game yet, but I expect to beat it today. However the plot for this character has been wrapped up and I am well aware of the character's ending slides.
If I'm lucky I will beat it and have the CM EPs done later tonight. There will be two other possible candiates I may discuss for this work as far as MBs go(Nocticula and maybe Areelu Vorlash to be exact, the latter undergoing a significant dose of Adaptational Nice Guy and even outright Adaptational Heroism vs her monstrous tabletop counterpart).
What is the work?
Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is a sequel to Pathfinder: Kingmaker, developed by Owlcat Games. It is an an isometric Role-Playing Game based on the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game's Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path. Bascicaly the plot deals a region of Golarion(the world of the Pathfinder setting) being beseiged by demons spilling out of the Worldwound. The Player, after a series of events, gains supernatural powers leading to one of 10 possible mystic paths, and leads the Fifth Crusade against the Worldwound to seal it once and for all. Along the way, the player recruits various companions to their party, including one Hellknight of morally dubious character.
Who is the Candidate?
Regill Derenge is the Paralictor of a unit of Hellknights of the order of the Godclaw, sent to establish an outpost in the Wounded Lands. The player, in Act 2, gets a quest that allows themto join forces with him and his knights to attack Drezen and contribute to the crusade.
What does he do?
He and his unit first appear in the Reliable Redoubt when the player comes to the assistance of the Hellknights, there you witness him and his men battling Gargoyles. Upon seeing that the gargoyles are capturing live victims rather than killing them, Regill chooses to execute his own wounded men himself suspecting what they plan to do with their prisoners is much worse. His fears are however confirmed when it is revealed that the gargoyles are feeding the prisoners to Nulkineth and his ghouls to turn into more undead.
The good-aligned characters are appalled at these methods and plea for you to leave him to rot in the wilds. If you ignore them and recruit Regill, he will join your party with his Hellknights. In Act 3, after the player has retaken the ancient Crusader Fortress of Drezen from the demons, Regill will reveal to the player of a a 'missing' squad in the Wilderness being attacked by demons. You go there, deal with the Succubus leading the demons, only to find that the entire Squad was out on patrol while you were dealing with the threat of the demons. Turns out Regill knew all along what that squad was doing and the location of the outpost. He was aware of the demon attack, telling his men to abandon their position and subsequently set the whole thing up so that he can arrange a Secret Test of Character for the player to see how committed they are to the crusade and how immune they are to a succubus' temptations. The player can kick him out of the party, seeing this as betraying any trust they put in Regill, or they can continue to let him operate.
In Act 4, when you go into the Abyss, you encounter in a side quest, an Aasimar in the Midnight Isles claiming to be freeing Aasimar women from slavery, Regill points out how unlikely it is to find someone wholly good in a place like the Abyss. He's ultimately proven correct since said Aasimar is a brutal torturer and rapist whose actions piss off even Camellia, the most evil of the companions. He dosen't do anything else in that act.
In Act 5, the conclusion of Regill's personal quest sees him become aware of his Hellknights distrusting the player because of their supernatural powers. He makes the player aware that the Hellknights are planning to arrest them and put them on trial, with him planning the tribunal for the player. When the player arrives at the tribunal, it is discovered throughout the trial that Regill has subtly led the judges to side with the Commander despite their doubts. That done he publicly disagrees then challenges the Commander to a duel which he fully intends to lose. As he puts it, taking down someone who disagreed with the verdict only made the Commander's position stronger. The cost was that he's stripped of his rank, which he brushes off as an acceptable sacrifice since we learn that he is dying from a degenerative disease known as the Bleaching, which can kill gnomes if they are not exposed to beauty, humor and goodness. He notes that this is likely his last campaign and he dosen't expect to live much longer, so he considers this a worthwhile sacrifice. This action has the result of restoring relations between the Crusaders and the Hellknights.
If not kicked out of the Party by the time of the final boss battle with Vorlesh, Regill's fate can go in various directions:
- In the normal endings, he can survive by willpower alone and push on living and fighting to rid the world of chaos, have a Heel Realization about his extremely morally dubious actions and spend his remaining months close to a cemetary reflecting on his actions, or more likely, spends the time before his death writing multiple books on fighting against Demons and a final letter to the Commander that no one but them knows the contents of.
- In the Trickster ending, the chaos the player causes manages to reverse the effects of his Bleaching. Seeing that the PC has plunged the world into chaos with their antics, he vows to spend now extended lifespan reversing the damage.
- In the best secret ending, where the entire party(and possibily a redeemed Areelu) ascends to Goodhood and kills Deskari and Baphomet for good, Regill is totally cured of the Bleaching receives immortality, and promptly spends his immortality allying with the Forces of Hell against the Abyss, his assiduous inspiring even the Legions of Hell.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
So Regill's actions are extremely morally dubious. He belongs to an organization called the Hellknights that bascially is obsessed with Order—think of them like something akin to the Scarlet Crusade or a Lighter and Softer analogue of the Inqusition and bascically believes that evil must be taken to uphold order. Lawful Evil Hellknights are extremely common, himself included. We see him use many morally dubious actions such as playing with the trust of the PC or sacrificing his own men to accomplish military goals. He is also extremely zealous and obsessed with destroying the Abyss, his best ending where he becomes a God has him ally with the Legions of Hell to put a permanent end to the Abyss. Most of the Good-aligned characters are appalled by his actions, with every exchange between him and good characters like Sosiel or Seelah being summed up as this.
However, most of his actions serve a purpose. His actions are mainly driven by pragmatism and weakening the demonic hordes—He kills his own men during the fight with Gargoyles because they'd be converted into the undead. He puts the PC through these manipulative tests because he wants a truly incorruptible Commander rather than one that falls under the Succubus temptations, and said test actually saved the lives of his own men as they let the player do the heavy lifting. He dosen't like wanton evil for the sake of it and his obsession with order has him absolutely despise traitors and cowards. Any time someone tries to claim their actions are justified he always shouts them down and states that every turncoat has an excuse as to why they're different from all the others.
He also is genuinely committed to defeating the Demons rather than be a thug obsessed with power and brutality for the sake of tyrannizing others or imposing a twisted view of Order, as evident by how he puts his own rank at risk for the PC. He can genuinely develop respect for a good aligned Lawful player, and towards other party members, he can give respect to the good aligned Lann and the neutral aligned Greybor, offering both a chance to join the Hellknights. He’s also surprisingly respectful of Ember, acknowledging her strong willpower, and comments that if Kenabres had more of her perhaps the city wouldn’t have fallen.
Verdict
I'd say to him. Should also know that I find him to be my favorite party member, probably in part influenced by me thinking what happened in Strathlome in Warcraft was totally justified even if Arthas went off the crazy train later on. However all bias aside, I do think he does enough for this trope he is morally dubious, but a determined and driven strategic planner whose actions ultimately serve to stem the tide of the demonic invasion on Golarion.
Edited by xie323 on Sep 26th 2021 at 4:21:33 AM
Goku Black
Regill
Fourth for Marc Thompson I think . He was Sigma six Cobra commander and Zero one And Astral in Yugi oh.
Happy birthday Amanof
Edited by miraculous on Sep 26th 2021 at 4:15:48 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Happy Birthday many!
Might have more Ocean's Eleven candidates coming with Bull. Not sure when though.
Two more candidates I'm eventually pulling out of the Bourne series by the way. Feel free to PM me for details.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 26th 2021 at 4:26:29 AM
Yes to Creasy and Regill.
Creasy and Regill
Lethe
Switching to Mominator
Lies and Violence!
Regill.
Percy Jackson and the Olympians again! This time, a character from the actual series proper!
For those of you who haven't read it, there's this place called Camp Half-Blood that serves as a training ground for demigod children, so they know how to fight and aren't murdered by monsters. The Olympians are kind of shit parents, so one of their kids, Luke, decides to ally with Kronos so they can overthrow them and take over the world.
The Candidate
Daedalus was a skilled inventor from Ancient Greece and a son of Athena. Coming into the employ of King Minos, Daedalus... uh, volunteered to construct a massive prison for his monstrous son, the Minotaur. This underground Labyrinth was his crowning achievement; a massive, constantly shifting maze full of death traps. Unfortunately, it kind of also gained sentience and started to spread across the world, but on the bright side you can go anywhere you want if you know how to navigate it.
Minos used this maze to kill people, usually criminals or sacrifices from nearby Athens. Eventually (stop me if you've heard this before), a guy named Theseus came by and killed the Minotaur. How did he do it? Well, Minos' daughter Ariadne fell in love and asked Daedalus if he could help. Daedalus provided a magic string that would help him not get killed by the death traps, the Minotaur was slain...
...Aaand Minos got pissed. He locked up Daedalus and his son, Icarus, and forced them to build him cool stuff. To escape (and again, stop me if you've heard this before), Daedalus built goddamn wings and they flew out the window. He warned Icarus not to go too close to the sun, but... well, don't think I need to explains what happens.
Daedalus escaped to live with his sister. He took on his nephew, Perdix, as an apprentice in inventing stuff. However, it became increasingly obvious that Perdix was actually smarter than his uncle, and in a fit of jealousy Daedalus pushed him off a cliff. Athena cursed him in response, branding him with the mark of a murderer.
Daedalus then sought refuge with the King of Cocalus, becoming a teacher for his daughters and taking on the ingenious alias of "Not-Daedalus." Minos, still trying to recapture Daedalus, issued a challenge of wits that the inventor easily solved. Minos came to Cocalus to "greet" the "stranger" who solved his riddle, accepting a bath from the king's daughters...
...Aaand it's a trap. The three kill Minos and Daedalus congratulates them. However, he knows Minos' spirit won't rest until he gets revenge, so he heads off into the Labyrinth. From there he perfected Perdix's masterpiece, an automaton body he could transfer his soul into. This allowed him to secure immortality, forever escaping Minos's punishment (he's now a judge in the underworld, btw) — however, Athena's brand never went away, always manifesting on his mechanical bodies.
Luke approaches Daedalus in the present day, asking if they can have access to the string so they can navigate the maze and invade Camp Half-Blood through it. In return they will make him King of the Underworld, allowing him to make amends with Perdix and eternally punish Minos.
Daedalus decided he should see this camp for himself before making any rash decisions. Taking on the alias Quintus, he took on a job as their new training instructor, bringing along his pet hellhound Mrs. O'Leary. He sets up a war game, loosing a bunch of giant scorpions into the forest and sending campers out in pairs to go kill them. As one does.
Due to shenanigans, Percy and Annabeth find an entrance to the Labyrinth and realize how Luke intends to invade. They set out on a quest to stop him, Quintus giving him a whistle to call Mrs. O'Leary if he needs help. On said quest, Percy runs into a monster ranch where Quintus bought the scorpions. Since the rancher tries to sell them off to Luke, an already distrustful Percy assumes Quintus was a spy — a suspicion apparently confirmed when he's told Quintus mysteriously disappeared from camp, leaving Mrs. O'Leary behind.
They have a few more misadventures, Percy using the whistle and discovering the gift wasn't just an elaborate trap. They eventually meet with... uh... a seer girl who can see magic and guide them through the maze, go with it, and finally make it to Daedalus' workshop. Quintus reveals himself and explains what he's done, sadly informing them that he sees no way for them to actually stop Luke and has already given him the magic string.
Unfortunately, some of Luke's minions arrive and inform him that they're giving him over to Minos now that they have the string. A fight breaks out, Percy and his friends escaping while Daedalus stays to save Mrs. O'Leary. The two later returns to help fight against Luke's invasion. After pushing back the first wave, he gifts Annabeth with his labtop full of cool invention ideas and asks Nico to kill him. His lifeforce is tied to the Labyrinth, if he dies it will collapse in on itself and crush Luke's army. Plus, he's gotten tired of running and wants to see his family again.
Daedalus' punishment in the underworld is to eternally build overpasses to help ease the congestion of souls, but he doesn't mind it all that much and is allowed to see his nephew on weekends.
His labtop comes back in the final book, where Annabeth uses it to activate a bunch of death robots disguised as famous statues around New York to fight Kronos' forces.
Is he Magnificent?
Daedalus is a genius inventor who always manages to escape punishment, managing to secure immortality for thousands of years. His ultimate death is a sacrifice to atone for his mistakes, and while he did kill his nephew out of jealousy it's something he immediately regreted.
The biggest hiccup is when Luke betrays him, but A) he had no idea Minos had the kind of collateral that would get them to flip, and B) he makes up for it by utterly destroying their army.
Is he a Bastard?
Even ignoring the petty murder, Daedalus sells out Camp Half-Blood to be destroyed, partially because he doesn't think they stand a chance in the first place, partially because he wants revenge on Minos, mostly because he just wants to see his family again. It's sympathetic, but pretty sure it's enough.
Thoughts?
Yes to Daedalus.
Not sure; his character entry (under his alias of Quintus) says that he's a Dirty Coward since he runs from his problems rather than face them.
Edited by k410ren on Sep 26th 2021 at 8:01:22 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Well, that entry is a ZCE. I’ll wait for more opinions.
Just rewatched one of my favourite films, so I obviously had to EP this guy.
What is the work?
Man on Fire, a 2004 action thriller starring Denzel Washington and directed by the late Tony Scott, covering the kidnapping of a girl in Mexico and her bodyguard Creasy's Roaring Rampage of Revenge to avenge her death. It's loosely based on a novel that had already been adapted, though set in Italy when that was still a kidnapping hot-spot.
Who is Creasy? What has he done?
John W. Creasy is a man with a mysterious past. A former special forces soldier who has committed and witnessed some heinous things, in the present he is an alcoholic has-been tired of life. After meeting with his friend and former CO Rayburn (Christopher Walken) who has moved to Mexico, Creasy agrees to become a bodyguard for a rich family in Mexico City consisting of young patriarch Samual Ramos, his American wife Lisa, and their daughter Lupita, i.e. "Pita" (Dakota Fanning). Creasy has a hard time fitting in, initally distancing himself from Pita, frequently Drowning His Sorrows before attempting to shoot himself. The pistol jams, which causes him to reevaluate his behavior. He starts growing closer to Pita, mentoring her, helping her with her swimming contest and becoming something of a surrogate father to her.
Then things goes go south. When Creasy drives Pita to school one morning, they are attacked by several armed assailants, including some off-duty Mexican police. Creasy takes out several men but is wounded and hospitalized. Pita is taken away. The kidnappers are led by a man known only as "The Voice", who arranges the ransoming with the families. Samuel brings in the police to help them, but a fuck-up causes one of the kidnappers to get shot and the money stolen. Pita is killed as a warning.
Creasy recovers from his wounds weeks later, protected by Rayburn and his people. He also draws the attention of Manzano, a Mexican Federal Detective who has been tracking down the Voice for years and knows that corrupt city cops were involved. Creasy is furious, but he can't undo what's already done. With nothing else to live for, he decides to take out everyone who had anything to do with the kidnapping so he can "arrange a meeting between them and God". Eventually tracking down one of the men who grabbed Pita, Creasy knocks him out, strips him, tapes his hands to a steering wheel, then proceeds to cut off his fingers one by one while interrogating him before setting him on fire. This leads him to rave club where the kidnapped children are taken before being transported elsewhere. Creasy shoots two of the men, but spares a woman after she promises to give him "the girl". This turns out to be a different girl, whom Creasy takes to safety. To cover up evidence of his crimes, he blows up the night club after leading everybody outside.
Creasy later targets the leader of the corrupt police, breaking into an elderly couple's home and destroying his motorcade with an RPG and killing his bodyguards. Creasy shoves a homemade explosive up the chief's rectum, interrogating him for information before letting him die. His next clue leads him to Ramos's lawyer, who turns out to have stolen most of the money. Ramos himself also had a part in the kidnapping, having orchestrated it because of financial worries, though he never intended his daughter to come to any harm. Creasy hands him a pistol, since "a bullet always tells the truth", and walks away while a gunshot can be heard behind him. Coming closer to the Voice himself, named Daniel Sanchez, Creasy captures his brother and takes his pregnant wife and children hostage. The Voice offers him anything to make him stop, so Creasy blows off his brother's hand and promises he'll do even worse to the rest of Daniel's family to make it clear he doesn't give a shit about any money. He wants Daniel.
Daniel agrees to meet with Creasy, demanding his life in exchange for Pita's life. Since Pita is believed to be dead, Creasy demands proof of life. When Daniel provides it, Creasy enlists Lisa as back-up, giving himself and Daniel's brother for Pita. Meeting again with her for the final time, he promises that he's going home too. Creasy allows himself to be captured by Daniel's men and driven to Daniel's base, knowing he had already sustained fatal wounds in the previous shoot-out. As a final "fuck you" to Daniel, Creasy dies in the backseat of the car. Detective Manzano, who has been following Creasy's progress and allowed his rampage to take place, kills Daniel himself during the subsequent arrest.
How do his actions and personality demonstrate him to be a Magnificent Bastard?
Creasy starts the film as a Shell-Shocked Veteran. An alcoholic, a has-been, but as his old friend Rayburn notes, even at half-speed he's deadlier than most men. He outwits his enemies repeatedly and goes about his mission in a methodical and clinical manner, even taking out an armored convoy by luring them into an ambush. As Rayburn explains to Detective Manzano in his most famous quote when Creasy starts carving a bloody path through Mexico City:
A man can be an artist... in anything, food, whatever. It depends on how good he is at it. Creasy's art is death. He's about to paint his masterpiece.
Creasy's past is shady as all hell. While we never discover what exactly he's done, it's bad enough that he's haunted by it, and he asks Rayburn if God will ever forgive them. As for his actions in the film? He kills and tortures tons of people who played a role in Pita's kidnapping as a Vigilante Man, from mutilating them to setting them on fire. Now it could be said that many of Creasy's victims definitely deserved it, but he goes about it in such a brutal way that it's clear he's crossing some lines that push him well out of the purely heroic. He gives a suicidal man a loaded weapon instead of turning him over to the police, breaks into an old couple's house and holds them hostage (although he does not physically harm them) and he makes it very clear to Daniel that he's going to "take your family apart piece by piece!" in revenge for Pita's murder. He's rather like Bryan Mills from Taken in that regard; while most of the people he's targeting are abhorrent, he's unscrupulous enough in his own right to meet the 'Bastard' criterium for this handily.
On the other hand, his father-daughter relation with Pita also demonstrates a softer side to him, and he does have some standards. For instance, that woman at the club who cooperates with him? He does hand her over to the police.
Mitigating traits?
Creasy does not get to kill Daniel personally, but he already accomplished what he wanted to do. While his initial goal is to avenge Pita's death, when he learns that she is still alive returning her to her mother obviously takes priority. There's a deleted, alternate scene wherein Creasy does meet with the mastermind and blows them both up with a bomb, but even his canonical death ends up being a huge middle finger to the kidnappers.
Conclusion?
Blue Bayou.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Sep 26th 2021 at 3:19:59 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"