During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Sadly, SpongeBob for a reason.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Darkblade, Albus, Shego, Señor Senior Sr., Hank Perkins, Falsetto Jones, Jack Hench and Kirari.
Out of curiosity could Zorplox count? Sure he's just Ron turned evil, but despite starting out hammy I remember he ended up seriously hypercompetent and dangerous, to the point he's pretty much the only one in the entire series to scare Shego.
Woagh
No to Spongebob.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Based on the EPs, to Falsetto and to Hench.
Based on the EP, to SpongeBob.
Big to all five of the Kim Possible candidates.
Lies and Violence!
Hench and Momobami.
So, got the go-ahead for this. Hear we go.
A Practical Guide to Evil is an ongoing web serial novel, set in a world where standard fantasy archetypes are actual mantles that can be held by people. One of these mantles is that of the "Dread Emperor", your standard Evil Overlord who rules the empire of Praes.
The chapters in the series always start with quotes from historical figures or literature, and as the series has a Villain Protagonist the Dread Emperors pop up the most. Now, seeing as how they're long dead they can't really interact with the present-day storyline, but the quotes we get pretty accurately sum up their personalities, and have made them pretty popular in their own right.
The candidate
The first of my two candidates is Dread Emperor Irritant, the Oddly Successful. Since, if you haven't noticed by now, I'm not confident in my summarizing abilities, Imma just copy and paste the actual quotes.
Actual summary
Dread Emperor Irritant (the first, apparently, though they've never mentioned a successor elsewhere) is a long dead emperor of Praes. While many other emperors try plans with varying levels of competence (the current pragmatic administration's focus on solidifying a consistent food supply versus the sentient tiger army, or the invisible army, or trying to take control of the weather - okay, there are a lot of stupid plans), Irritant fit in... somewhere in the middle.
His schemes seemed to center around tricking heroes into doing the dirty work for him - having them destroy buildings in order to pull Praes out of an economic slump, defeat his armies he hadn't bothered paying and who were about to turn on him, destroy magical artifacts belonging to political rivals while he attempts to "stop" them, etcetera.
He also made effective use of what what was later coined "Irritant's Law", where inevitable doom is a finite resource. Multiple groups of heroes went after him, but he managed to escape as said doom was divided into "mere" doom. Also, and this is my personal favorite story about him, he managed to escape being killed by other heroes by abdicating the throne to become a humble shoemaker. A tactic he repeated two more times. God, I love this book.
Irritant, since he's dead, is mostly just quoted once in a while for the excerpts that start each chapter. Still, I always get a laugh whenever one of his Noodle Incidents is brought up.
He's certainly nowhere near the level of death and destruction other Emperors where on, but no matter what he still managed to come out victorious, earning the epithet "the Oddly Successful''.
Magnificence and Bastardness
Most of the Dread Emperors are either terrifying nightmares or laughably incompetent. I wouldn't put Irritant in the "nightmare" category, but I wouldn't call him incompetent either.
His shtick is basically being the Not-So-Harmless Villain - his name is a bit stupid and he doesn't have nearly as large or varied a rap sheet as other Dread Emperors, but he always manages to succeed through some unbelievably stupid strategy, often by getting the heroes to do the dirty work for him. "The Oddly Successful" indeed.
Also, he seems to be okay with betraying and tricking his own High Lords, which... well, they're kind of pricks, so that's forgivable. He's certainly my favorite Dread Emperor, though my next candidate is a bit more popular.
Thoughts?
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 26th 2021 at 11:52:49 AM
Tentative to Irritant.
On the Kim Possible front, did anyone consider Professor Dementor? I only saw one episode with him, and only remember one scene with particular clarity, but he seemed to have the Affably Evil part down and is more successful than Draken (although whether successful enough to qualify for this, I don't know).
I generally like far more context to plans. These quotes seem very funny, but I don't have an overarching idea of what happened. That and some of the quotes indicate he's fighting morons. Irritant. No to Spongebob as well.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 26th 2021 at 10:28:30 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Spongebob's CM writeup says that he mind-raped Patrick with memories of Krabby Patties being made out of tortured clones of him. That's a kind of personal cruelty off-putting for an MB. I think I will give a no.
Goku Black
Not sure on irritant. Would like to know what hes done exactly
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lies and Violence!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The quotes are pretty much all the context we get. Cat, the main character, compares herself to him and Traitorous after she starts getting a Crazy Awesome reputation of a Memetic Badass who always wins, someone who seeks out victory for victory's sake instead of actually caring about what they win. Not really that specific, but eh.
Might not have thought this through all the way. The next guy has a bit more context, but still not that much, so not sure if I should try.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Gotta love Jaws!
to Jones, Hench and Momobami.
Abstain on Irritant.
An unfortunate to SpongeBob which I feel Ravok will back up. While the plan being meant to only kill Mr. Krabs and Plankton at first is a good argument, the fact that the deaths are so utterly graphic and he that he feels no remorse for the "collateral damage" is too much for me. If Rav backs up that since he only targeted Krabs and Plankton at first he's not too viles, I might reconsider.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on May 26th 2021 at 8:27:58 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
The Moron
Abstain on Irritant.
No to SpongeBob, because to be a bit blunt, he makes Patrick cannibalize a clone of himself without realizing to Mind Rape him into an insane mess. It's way too brutal.
Gotta love Jaws!
... riiiiight I forgot about that part. .
Goku Black
Btw I feel Ill so won't be here for a few days til I recuperate. Bye for now.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Draftsman of Doom
Showtime!
to Irritant. He's not present enough
Spongebob. Blatantly too much of a bastard.
- Manga/Kakeguri
- Yumeko Jabami, the compulsive gambling addicted lead of the series arrives at Hyakkakou Academy at the series start, befriending the hapless Ryota Suzui after her first brilliant gambit defeats skilled gambler Mary Saotome. Allowing herself to be placed upon the lowest rung of the academy's hierarchy, Yumeko is gleeful to challenge whoeever she wishes with a constant bevvy of luck and skill in her games. Yumeko has no compunction with resorting to blackmail, either, having secretly recorded idol singer Yumemi saying how much she hates her fanclub to force her into another match, while simply relying on her instincts, friends and luck at other times to make sure she can take a match with the President herself. Yumeko simply revels in the chaos her gambling creates as it gives her the chance to rise to greater heights and thrills even as she takes the time to look out for her friends.
- Kirari Momobami is the head of the academy and the ruthless founder of its oppressive Housepet system, designed so she can always be in control while giving her a chance to dictate the lives of graduates. In Kirari's quest for power, she outplayed and defeated the previous President to take control, while deciding Yumeko is too intriguing to expel. Kirari makes sure to use her subordinates to challenge Yumeko so she might see her worth, eventually opting to play Yumeko herself in a game of chance. Never cheating to give herself an advantage, Kirari even handles rebellions with a trademark flair, undermining them by using her "shadow" and twin sister Ririka as a decoy, even testing the loyalty of her beloved secretary Sayaka in a game against Yumeko which ends in Sayaka's loss and attempted suicide only for Kirari to leap out the tower after her and reveal she had placed a mattress below them all for the thrill of being able to leap such a height together.
Just here to note for posterity that I wasn't feeling my original Fitchner entry, so I reworded some of it and cut a sentence. This is the new version:
- Red Rising: Fitchner au Barca is secretly the mysterious Ares, leader of the Sons of Ares. Once the runt of his family, Fitchner becomes a military leader among high-class Gold society. Having fallen in love with a Red who was murdered by Golds, and left with only his half-blooded son, Fitchner declares war on the the Society, founding the Sons of Ares, trying to help the lower classes, and being entirely willing to cut moral losses and commit terrorist acts. Taking up numerous apprentices and choosing Darrow of Lykos to be his successor, Fitchner continues to deceive and manipulate his way through the Society, ruthless and brutal yet nonetheless helping his charges make their own ways through. Making his way into being the bodyguard of the Sovereign, Octavia au Lune, Fitchner only reveals his deception to save Darrow's life at the last moment, before being killed due to one of the Sons betraying him to the Golds. While a ruthless individual, Fitchner's machinations eventually allow for the destruction of the Society and the liberation of the lower classes.
Yep to Kirari, Falsetto Jones and Jack Hench. Abstain on Irritant; sounds promising but would like an actual summary.
Edited by HamburgerTime on May 26th 2021 at 12:44:47 PM
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Kirari
Feel better, Mir!
Zorplox nor Dementor count, I don't think. Zorplox/Evil Ron is a smart cookie, but he's...also very childishly annoying in a way that I don't think makes him "magnificent." It's a case where it might differ for others, but I personally feel that him doing things like ruining a family event to one up his snot-nosed prankster cousin is a bit too petty, and him being very obnoxious in personality would disqualify him for me. Dementor himself is very much in the category of Drakken in "his failures and irritable personality are played for laughs and he's rarely treated as a genuine threat."
And yeah, 'No' to SpongeBob. When I first finished the comic, I admit I almost did a crossover post for him on here and CM....but when you reread the whole comic and see all the horrid stuff that happened because of him, yeah, the dude is horrible. Nothing really implies Krabs and Plankton were his "only" targets either—he mentions it's good that they're out of the way, but he's also obviously enjoying his status as the "savior" of Bikini Bottom, which would require the Tortured One to have a massive bodycount—so we've got a pure evil iteration of the character whose machinations bring about allowing the Tortured One's torture, Mind Rape of Patrick, endangering or killing all of his friends, and getting literal hundreds or thousands of men, women and children devoured in horrifying ways by an Eldritch Abomination. Too vile by a lot.
Edited by Ravok on May 26th 2021 at 10:58:52 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Feel better indeed there bro and yeah, having talked this one over with Ravok I get why Bob L'Éponge looks like a crossover on paper but he's still too involved in letting a series of Bikini Bottom horrors occur just to line his profits. His angry threatening of Sandy to secure his position doesn't help either and I don't think it's quite a Dudley Smith case where he's just so cool and hands off enough in his CM-dom that he makes it here.
Lies and Violence!
Yeah, shouldn't be so lazy, sorry about that.
Hope you're better soon Mir.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 26th 2021 at 11:16:49 AM
