During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Neftin.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Neftin Proggers.
Neftin.
The Simpsons I feel is a bit greyer than your making it out to be 43. It runs on negative continuity. And the writers from the most recent seasons are not the same as the writers from season 1. Having said that they're is I feel a continuity between the writers that probably doesn't exist for the mario/sonic games. That and a time investment for making big budget games is much much greater than it is for a single episode... I think I've just convinced myself that you're right.
As for that simpsons episode looking it up online the wikipedia entry says it ends as a dream of ralphs which is further said to be a another dream they're in...
I know on the CM thread a character from Archer's dream season was rejected, do we hold to that on this thread? Or is the fact that it's an AU in Victorian London which makes it even less canon than usual treehouse fair somewhat acceptable?
Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 15th 2021 at 11:39:34 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
for Neftin Proggers.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Robert, Vicky and Marcy
Yeah that’s basically how the course of the discussion went. I’m not claiming the show has intense continuity so much as taking umbrage with the idea that we can be slapping down MB on a character as credit for their performance in one episode. Likewise, we elected that if there is a keep argument, it’ll be thanks to the setting being an AU.
I cut this entry from Kenny vs. Spenny
- Magnificent Bastard: Kenny. He's underhanded, devious, and often ruthless.... and he rarely gets caught. AND he's the more popular of the two. For example, in the episode "Who can take the most torture" Kenny went out of his way to make sure he lost, because that would mean Spenny ends up being tortured the whole time and all Kenny has to do is one little humiliation.
I think we discussed this before, but reality show candidates is a territory I'm not comfortable with.
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Neftin.
I've seen episodes of that long, long ago AK and... cut!
I actually started watching it today, and yeah, even without the reality show thing, from what I've seen, Kenny is way too petty and immature.
I used to binge Kenny vs Spenny. Kenny is too much of a dick. He makes sexist jokes, racist jokes, treats his "friend" horribly.
Woagh
And now, the second candidate, and the one I've been kinda hyping up as weird. He's no Mouse or Goose, but hey, who is?
What's the Work?
Tools Of Destruction is the first game in the acclaimed Future Trilogy, which brought the franchise into Darker and Edgier roots while still maintaining the humor and gameplay. Here, Ratchet has to contend with the evil Emperor Tachyon while Clank discovers his origins in the form of the enigmatic Zoni. Obviously Tachyon is far from this trope, but there is a B-plot where the duo have to contend with the robotic Space Pirate Captain Slag.
Slag is given more screen time in the expansion followup, Quest for Booty, where Ratchet and his friend Talwyn investigate the mystery of Slag's former master, Darkwater, who had connections with the Zoni. So who's the candidate? Is it Darkwater and his soul binding scheme? Maybe Slag has some clever moments to justify him?
Nope.
Who is Rusty Pete?
The best mate of Captain Slag who turns out to be quite the schemer, all things considered.
What's he Do?
In Tools, he's depicted as the right hand man of Captain Slag, as well as his best friend. Ratchet encounters them while trying to steal an artifact from them that'll help with the whole "Banished Lombax" issue, with the crew later tracking them down and steals the Dimensionator from them. Notably, it's Pete who holds Clank hostage, which manages to convince Ratchet to listen to them. Afterwards, R&C track Slag down and destroys him in a fight, leaving him as a head that dies shorty after falling into Pete's hands. Pete, naturally, is devastated... for 5 seconds, before tossing the head aside and declaring Ratchet the new captain. After Quark steals the Dimensionator and flees in an escape pod, Pete helpfully points out that it always heads to the nearest planet, and the duo set off to find him.
He later returns in Quest for Booty, and this is where he reveals his more clever side. Ratchet and Talwyn coming back to Slag's old crew for answers on Darkwater, they're captured by the crew and are about to blast the two to kingdom come, when suddenly Pete, disguised as Slag by putting his head on his body, tricks the crew into blasting them to Hoolefar island, where the dead Darkwater is, claiming that it's karmic irony. He later meets up with the duo there, stating that he's perfectly willing to help, an act that takes surprisingly little convincing for Ratchet and Talwyn to accept him. Throughout his partnership, he aids them via his "Slag on a Stick", AKA Slags head rewired to retell certain memories, using this to help find the shipwreck of Darkwater.
Eventually, the gang manage to locate the ship and Darkwater's body, but before Ratchet can go looking for the Fulcrum Star, which was used to communicate with the Zoni, Pete quickly slaps Slag's head onto Darkwater's body, reviving the decapitated sea captain at last. Unfortunately for him, Darkwater had tethered his soul to his corpse, and as a result has to share a body with Slag, who's the reason he's dead in the first place via mutiny. After the two bicker for a bit, Pete, who's content with the outcome, suggests that they blow off some steam by raiding the Island with Darkwater's ghost crew, something they all agree to. He then quickly talks to Ratchet, who was knocked off the ship, admitting that there's no hard feelings, even throwing him a pair of guns before leaving.
From then on, he gladly helps the fused pirates with their goals, even helping them set up a trap for Ratchet, with Pete himself capturing Talwyn. Eventually, Ratchet manages to best the ghost pirate, blowing up his body and launching Slag's living head into the ocean, with Pete diving in after him to save him. As the story comes to a close, Pete, who I should mention was narrating the whole story to Slag, happily obeys Slag's orders to row them to shore, the two being stuck on some shipwreck. They've made sporadic cameos ever since, Pete in particular not only hosting a podcast with Slag during A Crack in Time, but also opening up his own restaurant.
Is he Magnificent?
Honestly, on the surface, he seems like a decent keep, as he plays Ratchet and Talwyn for chums, manages to convince his crew to send them where they need to go, and even participates in a few ambushes here and there, both of which get pretty good results. The game also implies that his scheming started back when Slag first died, considering his suspiciously out-of-character dismissal of him when it's later shown that he still misses him, immediately trying to get on Ratchets good side. He also isn't too bumbling to offset his manipulations, being quirky at worst, and is actually treated rather well by Slag, with him only being miffed at him while he's a head floating out in sea. Otherwise, they get along great. He also shows some Hidden Depths during his podcast, so there's proof that he's not just a dimwit.
The main obstacle is proving wether his Affably Evil act was either him actually manipulating Ratchet or just Pete being Pete. Ultimately, the game seems to be leaning towards a bit of both, with Pete being genuinely Affably Evil, he just uses it to his advantage to manipulate Ratchet. Remember, he's still gung ho about invading a populated island, and he never shows much remorse for his actions. It's also shown that he can think on his feet, being caught off guard by Ratchet and Talwyn's sudden arrival on the ship, only to quickly use it to get to where he wants them to be using only Slag's lifeless head. And lets not forget managing to hold Ratchets friends hostage twice by sneaking up on them. TD;LR, there's evidence that this wasn't a simple stroke of genius, and that Pete can be crafty when he wants. Helps that he's affable enough so that you could actually buy his claim of wanting to help Ratchet.
One last thing? He basically gets away with everything he wanted. Granted, it was mostly just his best friend back, the whole ghost pirate thing was a bonus, but not only do they get out of the stranded at sea situation, they even manage to find careers later on. This actually make Rusty Pete of all people the series only real Karma Houdini.
Is he a Bastard?
As affable as he is, he still gladly aids a group of murderous space pirates, is completely willing to manipulate others to get what he wants, and is even the one to suggest pillaging the island once he revives both captains, so he's still a bastard in that sense. Not much problem here, even if the pirates are small fries compared to other villains.
Overall?
I ask nervously: Is he good?
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
The wifi here sucks
to Neftin and Pete.
Okay, so I got a candidate from a movie that I saw on the plane on my way to Florida. The movie in question is called Outside the Wire so let’s talk about it.
What’s The Work?
Outside the Wire is a Military Science Fiction set in the year 2036 taking place in during a civil war between pro-Russian insurgents and local resistances in Ukraine led by the US to deploy peacekeeping forces.
The movie stars Anthony Mackie as an Android officer named Captain Leo as he teams up with drone pilot, Lt. Thomas Harp as they travel to the Ukraine to stop a global catastrophe about to ignited by my candidate, Victor Koval. Of course there is another individual whose been manipulating people within the conflict for his own plans and that person is surprise Captain Leo.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Captain Leo is a combat android created by the US Military and sent to war-torn countries, such as Ukraine, to handle conflicts there. However Leo would grow dissolution with his role seeing so much bloodshed and destruction and decides to turn against the United State believing them to be prolonging and worsening conflicts for their own benefits.
With that Leo decides to exploit the civil war in Ukraine collaborating with both pro-Russian insurgents led by Koval and the local resistance led by Sofiya in efforts to retrieve the nuclear codes so he can use the nuclear missile silos to launch nuclear missile onto America so that they would no longer be able to interfere with future conflicts any longer.
When he learns of Lt. Thomas Harp’s actions to cause a drone strike that killed 2 marines to save 38 people, Leo chooses Harp to partner with him where they are assigned to give refugees vaccines and track down Koval, where Leo manipulates Harp into helping him evade the eye of military command eventually getting him to remove the tracking device that was installed into him.
When Koval’s men tries to kill him Leo captures one of them to interrogate where he learns of Koval’s intent to kill him and retrieve the codes for himself, before Koval lets the Ukraine locals beat Koval’s soldier to death and works with the resistance to retrieve the codes before Koval’s men.
After retrieving the nuclear codes from a bank, Leo knocks out Harp and leaves him at the resistance mercy once Harp realizes the truth and Leo would meet with Koval at the nuclear silo where Leo effortlessly kills off Koval and his soldiers when Koval attempts to betray him.
Gaining access to the Nuclear Silo, Leo prepares to launch a nuclear missile onto America only to be stopped by Harp. Trying to stop Harp from interfering with his plans, Harp was able to shoot Leo who then proceeds to order a drone strike on the silo, destroying the silo and taking Leo with it, while Harp was able to successfully escape.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As an android create by the military, Leo proves to be very intelligent knowing a great about warfare and using his knowledge to play both sides of the war to get what he wants. As for Charisma, Leo was able to manipulate Harp into doing what he wants throughout the film, eventually getting him to remove the tracking device inside him.
The fact that Leo is unable lie due to his programing really highlights on how adapt at manipulating people using this fact to get people to trust him while Exact Words with great precision so that no one knows of his true agenda, all while Leo never looses his cool and charm.
What’s The Competition Like?
Leo is the most intelligent and charismatic antagonist in the film. Koval obvious doesn’t count due to being a sadistic warlord who commits countless atrocities in his efforts to take over Ukraine and trying to nuke America just so that they won’t interfere with his conquest, while Harp although pragmatic as he may be was Unwitting Pawn for Leo to use. So yeah Leo clears the competition here by far
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Okay, Leo has manipulated an ongoing conflict for his own ends, goes behind behind the US military’s back to plot their destruction eventually tricking Harp into becoming his accomplice, subjects one of Koval’s men into suffering a brutal death, tries to have America nuked, and is basically the true Big Bad of the movie, so yeah he’s a bastard.
That said Leo never delves into any personally sadistic nor deplorable villainy, doesn’t take any joy in trying to nuke the US, being a genuine Well-Intentioned Extremist that they have caused too much bloodshed and deaths with their interference in foreign conflicts and that by doing so the US would no longer have the power to do so, with Leo even saying that he’s willing to kill a million people to save a hundred million more, and does grow to genuinely care for Harp to the point where he is unable to kill Harp and tells Harp that he should leave before the drone strike kills him, so yeah not too much of a bastard.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave the decision to you guys.
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 15th 2021 at 12:32:43 PM
Gotta love Jaws!
to Prog, Pete and Leo.
to Marcy.
Goku Black
Pete and leo (Hey just because you Aren't able to lie doesn't Mean you can't use the power of exact words and double meanings to get what you want)
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Leo.
Goku Black
First for Anthony Mackie aka MCU Falcon btw.
I hope to add Once upon a time Mad hatter soon so that the winter soldier can have one too.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Pete and Leo.
Speaking of which. I still need to do my two for Once Upon a Time, that mir suggested to me.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 15th 2021 at 11:47:45 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Pete and Leo
Also hi I'm back from spring break, Hope everybody in the midwest is staying safe with the weather.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Woagh
to Leo.
Anyways, that's all the R&C candidates I can think of. I was actually going to do Nefarious's butler Lawrence, as it's regularly implied that he's the only reason the formers schemes work as well as they do, but his clever moments were less consistent than Rusty Pete's manipulations. Everyone else is either a Smug Snake or an Omnicidal Maniac.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Oh. My bad. Make that fourth for Wally Wingert.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 15th 2021 at 10:06:29 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Goku Black
Nah wally has a couple already including Rufus Shinra.
You can see M Bs By Actor
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Pete and Leo.
The Moron
Hey guys, I'm here with a cut proposal - specifically I want to talk about Lady Arkham from Batman: The Telltale Series. I went through the thread and found Ravok's original EP, and I feel like there's two crucial details missing in it.
To briefly re-summarize her, she's a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds who was tortured by her "parents" as a child thanks to Thomas Wayne's actions - in response, she forms the Children of Arkham, a terrorist organization designed to help the ordinary citizens of Gotham get revenge for what the upper class did to them. To that end, she has Cobblepot working for her, drives Harvey Dent mad with a hate drug, kills the corrupt mayor, drives Bruce Wayne temporarily insane and has him thrown in Arkham, and plans a terrorist attack against the city. In episodes 2-4, she is genuinely Magnificent and a Bitch without crossing a line - but in episode 5, to me, she loses both of those categories.
In terms of Magnificence, episode 5 creates two issues. The first, and for me the most damning, is if Bruce takes off his mask in the final confrontation. When he does, she completely loses her shit, as she can't piece together her image of Bruce Wayne with the Batman and ultimately uses some Insane Troll Logic to decide he must do it to prey on the weak. In the following fight, she becomes a Laughing Mad maniac attacking out of pure rage, suffering a Villainous Breakdown of quite epic proportions. Plus, at the end, Bruce offers to help her out of the cavern that she is collapsing, and she refuses his help and tries to run - meaning that when she's inevitably crushed to death, it's because of her own stupidity and spiteful rage. If there is such a thing as a textbook "unrecoverable Villainous Breakdown", this is a very big contender for the title.
Plus, her unleashing all of Arkham's prisoners isn't any sort of long-term master plan - it's a petty attempt to cause any form of chaos she can now that she's lost all of her resources and plans, and it gets put down by the GCPD and John Doe of all people with minimal interference from Batman. It's not shown as the logical conclusion of a master plan - it's a woman on her last legs trying to do literally anything she can just to cause some chaos for the city and distract Batman, and it's so ineffective that it gets handled almost entirely offscreen.
As for the Bitch criteria? Her plan catapults her over the Moral Event Horizon. Her master plan is to release her Hate Plague on the citizens of Gotham in what is practically a shot-for-shot redo of Nolan!Scarecrow's plan, meaning she's taking her anger at her parents and Thomas Wayne out on pretty much everyone she can get her hands on. Yes, she has reasons to be angry and lash out, but that's exactly what it is - she's lashing out at everyone in the world for her misfortune. Plus, in episode 5, she captures Alfred just because of his association with Bruce, and he finds out later that she tortured him in very similar - if not identical - ways to how she was tortured as a child, meaning she willingly and deliberately puts another innocent through exactly what she went through as a child. The story makes it clear that even if Bruce understands her reasons and rage, it does not justify the lengths she goes to and how many people would die in her plans.
All in all, she's a great and well-rounded character, but episode five kinda kills her for me, if not for one reason than for two others. Any other thoughts?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Mar 15th 2021 at 2:17:12 PM
Yea for Pete and Leo
Yes to Prog.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread