During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
No one steals like Gaston
Wheels-and-deals like Gaston
No one induces laughter in peals like Gaston
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
What is the work? Savage Texas is a Western series by J.A. Johnstone, with a focus to the misadventures of some returning war vets from the Confederate army, and a local Union Secret Service agent trying to provide some safety from outlaw bands and Native American war parties despite being hated (with varying degrees of seriousness and intensity) by pretty much the entire population of frontier town Hangtree, Texas.
Who is Clay Stafford? Clay is the middle son of entitled rancher Vince Stafford. Clay is a respected gunman and tactician given more responsibility than his older brother Quent, including on various dirty work done to enhance his fathers ranch holdings. He serves as a side character who initially looks opposed to Confederate veteran and Deuteragonist Johnny Cross (a friend of Damon Bolt)
Magnificent
Shortly before the second book, A Good Day to Die (the Stafford's don't appear in the first book) Clay falls in love with Francine, a Soiled Dove his younger Brother Bliss has become a Stalker with a Crush towards (and she returns his feelings). When Bliss is killed in self-defense by Damon, the owner of Francine's brothel , Clay accompanies his father, Quent and lots of men on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge. Clay carefully hides his real feelings for Francine while constantly urging his father to let go off the vendetta, saying Bliss got what was coming to him and isn't worth what they're risking, and expressing hope that Damon will just leave town while knowing him well enough to understand that won't happen. When Vince vows to disfigure Francine's face as part f his revenge, Clay again tries to talk him out of it without revealing his true reasons and showing hints that he won't go through with that order when the time comes. When the town is attacked by a Comanche war party, Clay helps get his father agree to a temporary Enemy Mine situation. During the ensuring battle he snarks about how screwed up his side is and shows a bit of bravery and combat skill. After the Comanches are repulsed, and Damon challenges Vince to a one on one duel, Clay helps goad hsi father into accepting it by pointing out the loss of face, then tricks Quent into intervening (getting himself killed) by making Quent think that Clay has his back. Clay then openly reveals his relationship with Francine, and rides off with her at his side, while owning the family ranch with his father and brother dead. In a subsequent book he's again willing to assist in defending the town against raiding outlaws.
Bastard
He does set up his father and brother to be killed without batting an eye and is mentioned as threatening to get into a range war with his neighbor in a subsequent book. He also handles dirty work for a ranch that's ben built up on violence.
Edited by Melinda on Feb 12th 2021 at 10:30:41 AM
Okay, now for the extra tricky part. The actual write-up for the approved nominee... Wish me luck.
Trouble in Paradise: Gaston Monescu is one half of an Outlaw Couple and easily the smarter and more manipulative member of the duo. Starting off slow by pickpocketing a French man's pocketbook, posing as a doctor, he would then meet and develop a fondness over fellow Con Artist Lily Vautier as they become an international Outlaw Couple committing burglaries and thefts all over Europe over the course of a year. After secretly stealing the wealthy Mariette Colet's expensive purse in France, Gaston returns it upon hearing about the reward under the fake identity "Monsieur LaValle". Encouraging Colet to keep a large amount of cash on hand, and convincing her to make him her new secretary, he conspires to steal Colet's 850,000 francs. Along the way, Monescu begins to develop genuine feelings for Colet and winds up outsmarting several French men who get suspicious of him or try to have him arrested. After Lily steals the money herself, He ends up revealing himself as a "self-made crook" and leaves her for good, but not before getting one final laugh on her by stealing back her purse.
There we go. 183 words. And yes, I used a word counter for real this time.
And now for a bonus dessert. Here's a brief from our little affable thief:
- Waiter: Yes, Baron. What should we start with, Baron? Hmm?Gaston Monescu: Oh yes. That's not so easy. Beginnings are always difficult.Waiter: Yes, Baron.Gaston Monescu: If Casanova suddenly turned out to be Romeo having supper with Juliet, who might become Cleopatra, how would you start?Waiter: I would start with cocktails.
Edited by SpaceProtagonist on Feb 12th 2021 at 2:09:06 PM
Hello, I'm the American Cinema Critic, I remember because the majors don't.
Gaston, Clay. I don't view that quote as embodying this trope unless you're just showing it off.
Yes to Gaston and Clay.
Goku Black
Clay
Thompson, Alessa, Blackbeard, Gaston, and Clay.
Gotta love Jaws!
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Gaston and Clay
- Reign of Fire: Denton Van Zan is a self-proclaimed dragon slayer, mobilizing his military group the Kentucky Irregulars in hunting and killing the beasts in an attempt to retake the Earth. Using creative technology and strategies to fight the powerful dragons, Van Zan even adapts to losing conditions with ease, appropriating Quinn Abercromby as a new tool when one of his men dies in combat. Van Zan, having deduced that if the sole male dragon, "the Bull", is killed it will lead to the dragons dying out, ends up devising a scheme to kill it after analyzing the Bull's flight patterns. Though Van Zan is killed, he goes out Defiant to the End trying to kill the Bull with an axe, and his tactical advice proves to save the day when Quinn continues Van Zan's plan, securing humanity's future free from dragons.
- Uncharted:
- Uncharted: Drake's Fortune: Atoq Navarro is the true mastermind behind the hunt for El Dorado. Allying himself with Gabriel Roman and feigning his status as a put-upon lackey, Navarro guides the Roman and Nathan Drake's individual hunts on the hidden island towards his own goals, unknown to all. Upon finding the casket of El Dorado, Navarro betrays and tricks Roman into getting himself killed before revealing how he has played everyone to his tune, all in the hopes of selling off the virus-laden El Dorado casket as a weapon of war to the highest bidder.
- Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception: Talbot is Katherine Marlowe's right-hand man, doing the majority of the heavy lifting and thinking for his boss in outpacing Nathan Drake. Deducing a traitor in Marlowe's organization with ease after an operation goes wrong, Talbot later drugs and hypnotizes the traitor, Charlie Cutter, into helping thwart Drake at several turns. With mysterious abilities to survive gun shot wounds and disappear down dead end alleys with ease, Talbot routinely outwits Drake and his friends to swipe artifacts from them as they are collected, even hypnotizing Drake into giving Marlowe the final piece of the puzzle to find the lost city of Iram. Genuinely loyal to Marlowe to the end, Talbot loses his calm, cool demeanor for the first time in the game when she dies, and nearly murders Drake and Sully for their hand in her death.
- Uncharted 4: A Thief's End & the Lost Legacy: Nadine Ross is a badass, snarky Private Military Contractor who hires her company Shoreline out to Rafe Adler in the hunt for Henry Avery's treasure. Capable of beating Nathan and Sam Drake in hand-to-hand combat while engaging in banter and functioning as a no-nonsense Only Sane Man to Rafe's egocentric instability, regularly keeping him in check as she assumes the lead. When Rafe's treatment of her grows abusive and he costs her a fortune in treasure for his own ego, Nadine stabs him in the back at the first opportune moment, simply cutting her losses and escaping with her life while leaving him to die. Returning later as a treasure hunter in her own right, Nadine teams up with Chloe Frazer to hunt the Tusk of Ganesh and thwart Asav's warmongering, saving the day and establishing herself as a morally flexible hero and villain alike, depending on what pays best and what standards her foes cross.
- Inspector Gadget 2: Dr. Claw is a hammy, mysterious supervillain who schemes to rob Riverton's Federal Reserve with style and flourish. Escaping prison following his capture in the first film, Claw has reinvented himself to be a cool, threatening presence, devising a plan to create his "time displacement laser" and freeze all of Riverton in time. Claw disguises himself and his gang as a band to stealthily steal a priceless ruby and hacks Inspector Gadget's robotics to throw a science convention into chaos while he steals a protoid laser, gathering all the parts needed for his superweapon. Successfully freezing Riverton and its citizens, Claw robs the Federal Reserve before taking Gadget's niece Penny as a hostage, using threats to her life and weapons built into his escape vehicle to fight off Gadget. Even when Gadget has him dead-to-rights, Claw uses an backup emergency rocket to flee justice, promising that he'll be back to defeat Gadget next time.
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
Woagh
Right, finished the walkthrough. Lets see if he makes it.
What's The Work?
Crash Boom Bang is a DS party game in the Crash Bandicoot series, originally made as a Japan exclusive game before they decided to port it to America, hence some weird choices such as Pure and Polar being Anthropomorphic animals instead of Nearly Normal Animals.
Yeah, it's not very... good. That said, I might've found a candidate, mostly because he's one of the few really manipulative characters in the series.
With that out of the way, meet The Viscount.
Who's The Viscount?
Named Viscount Devil in the Japanese version, he's the wealthy host of the games tournament who has bigger plans for himself.
What's he do?
Right, so Viscount, for most of his life, had been searching for a powerful Power Crystal called the SUPER BIG POWER CRYSTAL (Creative, I know), a crystal that can grant one wish for anyone who finds it. Unfortunately, solving the puzzles requires multiple people, something Viscount doesn't have. So, he simply whips up a tournament and hides its true purpose from everyone, invites our heroes, who he notes are more than capable of solving the puzzles, into joining, and makes the prize his fortune of $100,000,000, something that easily convinces everyone to join in.
Throughout the tournament, he keeps up the charade by framing the tasks as objectives in Mario Party styled mini games and boards, with Viscount himself participating in some mini games to keep it up. Eventually, Dr. Cortex manages to realize the charade, and attempts to steal the map Viscount was using to find it himself, despite Vissy telling him that the map by itself is useless, with Cortex accidentally ripping the map apart and scattering the pieces. After our heroes get the map pieces before Cortex does, Viscount, though at first annoyed about the basically destroyed map, brushes it off, having memorized the map in advance, and calmly explains the truth behind why he made the tournament in the first place, as well as admitting why he needed help. Nonetheless, he manages to convince everyone to help him by still promising the prize money, and he and the gang head off to the next location.
When they arrive, he reveals that the reason why he's aware of the SUPER BIG POWER CRYSTAL is because that his grandpa tried finding it, managing to locate the key to the tower it's in, but never being able to decipher the map leading to it before his ship was hit by an iceberg and sunk, taking his beloved grandpa with it. He then casually mentions that the key is still down there In the ship, and the gang must go into the freezing waters and fetch it before freezing to death. They object at first, but he eventually manages to persuade them into going in, with the gang managing to get it before they freeze.
Eventually, they manage to find the tower, and its revealed at the end of the final level that Viscount beat them to the SUPER BIG POWER CRYSTAL, making sure to finally get his wish before anyone else does, but just as he's about to make a wish, Crash comes running in out of literally nowhere and wish for a Crap-Ton of Wumpa Fruit, foiling his chances at whatever he was gonna wish for, to his presumed dismay.
And that's the end. Invigorating, I know.
Is he Smart? Thinks on his feet?
Well, he's certainly written like he is, managing to effortlessly fool everyone into doing his dirty work, and his dialogue being written in a hammy and charismatic way. He also has no problem admitting his true goals while leaving out the whole "con" thing, still managing to trick everyone into helping him via the prize money. He does run into a road bump with the whole cortex thing, but he was smart enough to memorize the map beforehand, and during the final level, manages to beat everyone to the Crystal just to secure his wish.
The wiki describes him as taking people ignoring his demands poorly, but this detail is only shown, like, once and is never brought up again.
Sure, he does get foiled in the end by Crash stealing his wish, but he literally comes outta nowhere, and he was seconds away from victory, so it could be chalked up to luck on Crash's side. We don't really get any details on his reaction other than a typical "This Cannot Be", but considering his grandpa died trying to get the thing and he spent his whole life trying to get it, can you really blame him for getting a bit upset?
Is he a Bastard?
Now, compared to other Crash villains, you really can't call him "Evil", maybe greedy and manipulative at worst. Most of his own mini games where he tries to stop them are just part of his ruse. We're also never directly told just what he wants to wish for, either. That being said, conning everyone out of $100,000,000, putting everyone in constant danger in the process, as well as not giving a shit if everyone freezes to death probably pushes him into "Bastard" territory.
That said, it's implied he genuinely cared for his Grandfather, and his reasons for pursuing the '''SUPER BIG POWER CRYSTAL''' is also implied to mostly be settling loose ends, so he has his reasons for his goals.
Overall?
How's he sounding?
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
Goku Black
Viscount
Gotta love Jaws!
The wifi here sucks
yes to the Viscount (I completely forgot that game existed)
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Woagh
BTW, I gotta go to work, so I can't answer any questions for a few hours. Be back in a bit.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Goku Black
From Kiss Me Deadly
- Magnificent Bastard: Dr. Soberin
Would it kill people to mention what a character actually does. Lol.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
Hey folks, I'll catch up on voting later but @ mir, I think almost anything written prior to the real ZCE crackdown is guaranteed to be written for people who've already seen the work. Made worse by the fact that this trope having so much misuse makes it difficult to even tell what constituted MB in the troper's mind when they made the entry.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Viscount.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to the Viscount.
Rawr.
the Viscount.
Viscount
Yes to Gaston.
Also, I have an example in mind from a work which doesn't have a page (and which I don't feel like creating a page for at this time). Would it still be fine to post an EP for that character and then just put the example on the main magnificent bastard literature page but nowhere else?