Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

Just leaving this here so people don't get the wrong idea about me

tl;dr Original version tried to be respectful of Steven's issues and was only reporting feelings of part of the fans, but then two other tropers added stuff that made it veer towards Unfortunate Implications.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 22nd 2020 at 7:01:50 AM

"As such, some find it hard to sympathize with Steven since he's ultimately the cause of his own issues, and refuses to accept help when people offer it.

That phrase seems to indicate that the trauma he suffered was his own fault. Also the fact that his powers are going haywire and proceeding any stress as a threat.

Okay then, poor phrasing. The intent behind the phrasing is that he keeps bottling things up to the point he has an emotional explosion, then just thinks he needs to bottle them up even more. Perfect example is with Cactus Steven. He starts venting to Cactus Steven about all his issues he's been bottling up, but then that sends Cactus Steven on a rampage who then proceeds to parrot what he's been saying. So after he apologizes to Cactus Steven and it runs off, when Pearl tries to ask if he's okay, his only response is "I think I've said enough" and just goes right back to bottling them up. It's a cycle at that point. He refuses to acknowledge any of his issues and they just build up, until they eventually cause a problem, he has to fix the problem, and then he goes back to bottling up again.

Hell, this isn't something unique to Future. He's had these issues since the original series. In Mindful Education he was taught that its okay to think about and feel sad about things after his regret over Jasper, Bismuth, and Eyeball reached the boiling point, but even after that he just right back to bottling it up.

So by "Causes his own issues", the intent was to say: "He bottles up his emotions until he has a breakdown, which then causes him to bottle up further. Rinse and repeat".

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 22nd 2020 at 12:18:58 PM

And the show portrayals that bottling up as a bad thing. So there's no Unintentionally from the creators part.

The show also portrays Steven's entire situation as tragic and presents Steven's actions as unhealthy, but still wants it to be seen as Steven deserving sympathy because of the situation he's in. As someone who has lived what he is going through, by that I mean a mental breakdown, I can see where he's coming from. But having talked to the people who tried to help me, watching Steven is like seeing things from the outside looking in.

Really, from what I've seen, the straw that broke the camels back was his treatment of Greg. While Greg isn't and hasn't been the perfect parent, a lot of people started losing sympathy for Steven after seeing him basically ignore the context behind Greg's decisions and instead decide to berate him for how he raised Steven, or envy the life Greg once had but clearly wasn't happy in. Add on how he just starts tuning Greg out and deletes his image from his phone, it reminded a lot of people about how he became disillusioned with Rose. The difference, with Rose, a lot of people were more accepting cause they were just as in the dark about her as Steven was. With Greg however, the aren't in the dark and as such aren't as understanding of Steven's issues.

So they find it hard to sympathize with Steven after seeing that not only is his behavior self-destructive, but also hurting the people around him whether through his attitude or his actions like with Jasper. But since the narrative still wants Steven to be sympathized with, the trope Unintentionally Unsympathetic appears to be in effect.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 22nd 2020 at 1:11:35 PM

Currently on the Steven Universe Future page multiple tropers that vandalized this trope are now doing the same thing but with Darkness Induced Audience Apathy, with the same shock value bad arguments.

Which is just more evidence for me that this page needs a timeout before the finale.

7-4 when you re-write the entry, you have to remember that Leonie does have a father who helped her get into the academy (along with her entire village) to achieve her dreams to be a mercenary like Jeralt, yet the player only find this up in her A support with Raphael which is where the entitlement comment comes up. She's criticizing the main character for not appreciating their father when he was alive but she can't even bother to thank her own father (who is still alive) for giving her this chance in the first place.

That still doesn't really address the fact that nothing in the example is saying it's meant to be sympathetic. I've seen playthroughs/other videos of FE3H, and Leonie's jealousy issues did not strike me as portrayed positively.

At most it sounds like one of those "the work portrays this as bad BUT NOT BAD ENOUGH" examples that we've been trying to get rid of.

Edited by nrjxll on Mar 25th 2020 at 5:22:24 AM

The support chain is here for those that want a refresher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY2JgXxYTpw

The B support can only trigger after Jeralt's death, and for most players that's usually the very day after his death.

I think the crux is that for most other character support conversations are supposed to be bonding moments that reveal a character's hidden depths but for Leonie they just show her dark side (her rudeness and rivalry). That and while she apologizes twice, the player themselves never get to call her out themselves (literally the only two dialogue options are "it's all right" and "I wasn't offended/I don't mind", which for many players they were very offended). Which felt to me like the game was downplaying how offensive this is by justifying it as Leonie being a really hard worker that had to earn everything she has in life.

Edited by Stage7-4 on Mar 25th 2020 at 8:56:52 AM

Unintentionally Sympathetic:

• The Powerpuff Girls:
  • Rainbow the Clown. While he did suck the color out of Townsville, his transformation into Mr. Mime was clearly not in his control, so the beatdown he received from the heroes after he was turned back to normal was a bit harsh. Justified, as this ending was made by the writers in protest specifically to make the audience feel sympathy for Rainbow and cry foul. Originally, Rainbow was supposed to join in an ending musical number singing happily with the Powerpuff Girls thanking them for rescuing him, but the network refused to air an episode that supposedly showed such a destructive villain going unpunished. His cameo appearance in a later episode suggests he was eventually released from jail.

So what this entry is saying, is that Rainbow was intended to be sympathetic. Cut.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 25th 2020 at 4:22:17 PM

Now that the finale for Steven Universe: Future is out, Steven's issues cause him to transform into a monster that's the Final Boss of the series, afterward he's seeing a therapist for his issues. At this point his not talking about his his issues it absolutely not an unintentional issue, in fact the whole series was built on showing that it was intentional.

I say cut as that complaining about a sympathetic character having intentionally unsympathetic traits as opposed to anything unintentional.

I cut it.

UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Live Action Films

• The Last Jedi: Luke considered murdering his nephew Ben in his sleep because he sensed darkness within him, and despite regretting and not going through with it, it still pushed Kylo Ren to the dark side, killing most of his Jedi pupils and several others defecting to his side. But rather than helping to stop Ren or trying to turn him back like he succeeded with Vader, Luke exiles himself for six years, leaving the galaxy to fend for itself without The Hero to help them, causing countless innocents to die. Leia's been through a much worse Trauma Conga Line (seeing her entire planet destroyed at 19, breaking up with her husband, watching her own son become a monster, etc), but she never deviates from her duty.

This isn't unintentional as Rey is very displeased with his inaction and Luke is only sympathetic once he acts and redeems himself at the cost of his life. The whole point of the movie, who's Central Theme is failure, is Luke was intentionally in the wrong for not acting out of fear and disillusionment of his failure. I realized Fan-Disliked Explanation is the intended trope as the issue is fans finding the explanation for Luke's actions unsatisfactory for those reasons. Move?

Go ahead.

Cut it.

As someone who despises the sequel trilogy, cut it. Fan-Disliked Explanation is a better fit.

YMMV.Steven Universe Future:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Garnet, Pearl, and Amethyst, even with the fact that Steven is growing up, continue to treat him like they did at the start of Steven Universe. At several different points, they are seen glossing over his emotions, such as during "Together Forever" when Garnet doesn't give Steven help when he asks (and claims that "there was no future where he didn't propose despite Ruby and Sapphire directly egging Steven on to propose to Connie), and Amethyst glossing over Steven's concerns in "Guidance" when he pointed out they were treating the newly-immigrated gems like they did on Homeworld (though she turned out to be mostly right, Both Sides Have a Point). And "Snow Day", when they repeatedly ignored the many signs that Steven did not want to play with them, as well as the fact that they never directly apologized to Steven while he was himself onscreen (like he did to Cactus Steven in "Prickly Pair") in "I Am My Monster" or "The Future" over their Parental Neglect or how he was their Living Emotional Crutch, instead just acknowledging it while he was in his Kaiju form. Or acting "tough" in "The Future", without considering how acting like they didn't care their child was leaving may have affected Steven emotionally. Steven may have not brought it up most of the time, but is it any wonder he's angry with them?

1. It fails to explain why they were supposed to be sympathetic despite the circumstances. 2. It outright states they realized they were in the wrong in "I Am My Monster", the point of the series was showing how they treated Steven hurt him. The "never directly apologized to Steven while he was himself onscreen" seems too minor and nitpicky to count when at least 90% of this was intentional.

Update: cutting as the only unintentional part is not apologizing onscreen which prior cleanup decided is too minor to count if they are otherwise intended as in the wrong. (As if x 90% intentionally unsympathetic, the 10% unintentionally is too minor to overshadow the intentional stuff as this UU implies.)

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Apr 5th 2020 at 10:55:22 AM

Found this on YMMV.The Garbage Pail Kids Movie; is Tangerine just too morally complex for this movie? Also, it's worth noting her actress was only a year older than Dodger's, and they were dating in real life.

• Tangerine is either this or Unintentionally Sympathetic. If we were not supposed to feel sorry for her, then this somewhat fails due to the hints of how Juice abuses her, the investment she has in her dream, and the way the actress plays her remorse in the end as genuine. But if we were supposed to feel sorry for her, it's a bit difficult to get past the statutory rapist vibes she gives off with her entire manipulative, abusive relationship with Dodger.

Edited by rjd1922 on Apr 11th 2020 at 8:41:35 AM

It's reverse Dawson Casting though. A young teen playing an older teen. It might be because I saw the film first in the Nostalgia Critic review, but I feel it's a legit example in terms of we're not meant to feel sorry for her, but due to the fact the GPK ruin her business for simply using their talent, when all she had to do was pay them and until Juice butted in, she did.

If anything, Juice is the Unsympathetic one.

Edited by Klavice on Apr 12th 2020 at 6:24:46 AM

Juice isn't supposed to be sympathetic, and Tangerine's actor was 16.

From YMMV.Star Trek Picard, I zapped this UU example:

• The fourteen species that convinced the to Federation abandon their rescue mission for Romulus could come off as this. While they probably had justifiable reasons considering the Romulans' history, it still ended up having massive consequences throughout time and space thanks to Nero's Start of Darkness, which led to the creation of the Kelvin timeline where his crew claim the USS Kelvin and the planet Vulcan as part of their many, many victims.

They are never given any sympathy for it, or even a justifiable reason like the rest of the Federation. And the alternate timeline sounds too unforeseeable a consequence to hold against them.

This leads me to question the other UU examples on the page (which has attracted issues before:

• Soji, an ostensible protagonist, deliberately attempts to instigate a galaxy-wide xenocide in the finale. While it's true that the Romulans are out to kill her, and that synths are indeed subject to discrimination, the sheer disproportionate scale of the act is difficult to comprehend, let alone justify as self-defense. Not helping is that she's Easily Forgiven in the end, and doesn't appear to face any kind of justice for what she did.
• Jurati, who is a core member of the crew, murders Dr. Maddox, who was the primary reason Picard went back into space for in the first place. However, despite being caught, she is Easily Forgiven and never faces any sort of legal or personal consequences for murdering an innocent man. In addition, almost immediately after murdering Maddox, who she had romantic ties with, she immediately starts a new relationship with Rios with no apparent regrets.

That it starts by listing their wrongs as opposed to why they were supposed to be sympathetic despite them is a red flag. For all I can tell from them, they are intentionally morally flawed characters. Any thoughts on them?

And is it possible to be a Designated Hero without being Unintentionally Unsympathetic? This might be the better trope for the above.

On YMMV.Pokemon Anime;

• We're supposed to feel bad for Koharu due to her not knowing what she wants to do in life and being constantly pressured by others to have a career in Pokemon like her father. Even with her mother assuring her that she doesn't need to rush into things, this is ignoring the fact that she not only refuses to speak up about how she truly feels or what she wants, essentially allowing people to bother her with their assumptions, but she doesn't even make an effort to step out of her comfort zone and at least try to find something she does like.

This entry disturbs me a bit.

Okay, maybe not disturbing, but I do feel that there is a tiny bit of victim blaming (someone is being pressured by those around her, and the entry blames her for not speaking against them).

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Apr 23rd 2020 at 6:23:54 AM

Why?

From RWBY YMMV

"Robyn Hill gets this a lot from fans. She's supposed to be portrayed as the voice of Mantle and a sympathetic non-elitist politician, however she instead comes off as obnoxious and arrogant, pointlessly antagonizing Ironwood for no real reason other than because he's hiding his plans, plans that he can't risk falling into enemy hands. Even when Yang and Blake do tell her the truth, she still opposes Ironwood and only lays off him when Jacques' own foul play is revealed. She then attacks Clover when he tries to arrest Qrow despite not being under arrest herself and does so while in a moving plane onboard with a captured Tyrian, which leads to the plane crashing, Tyrian breaking free and killing Clover."

.....well this leaves out some Minor things. And seems to either misrepresent or leave context out of the shows Events.

For one, it dosent bring up the fact her issues with Ironwood stemmed from him taking recourses from her city she was dedicated to fighting for, said recourses being the thing keeping them from being slaughtered by Monsters, for a purpose be never shared. And he wasn't exactly looking trustworthy, its made clear virtually everyone outside of the Military views Ironwood as a Despot thanks to his many decisions, namely closing off Atlas from the world and policing it heavily, and Salems forces were framing him for the deaths of his critics Wich his only response too was that he didn't care what other people thought of him.

She attacked Clover(who to give Context is one of Ironwoods soldiers) After Ironwood backstabbed her And was trying to abandon her town after she grew to trust him. And had sent out arrest Warrants for anyone who opposed him, including the 2 girls who convinced her Ironwood meant well to begin with.

Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 24th 2020 at 1:05:24 AM

This entry could use a trim for being a bit complainy.

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 5 E 10 Princess Spike

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: Spike gets the Butt-Monkey treatment even harder than from "Just For Sidekicks", this time as "punishment" for genuinely trying to help Twilight Sparkle^note While he does do some self-serving stuff, this goes completely without consequence. Between taking all the blame for merely trying to do a job that was given to him (with none falling on those who gave him said job), as well as some blows he takes from a plant called Dragonsneeze that does exactly what you think and was inexplicably planted all over the place, most felt it went too far and saw it as a Sadist Show: it's been panned as the worst episode of Season 5, one of the worst episodes overall (and often cited as the worst), and even Jim Miller agreed that perhaps they hit Spike too hard this time. When you put together how the Disaster Dominoes happened, all it took for the disaster to not happen was for the shot ball to not hit the Dragonsneeze trees and/or have somepony to turn off the water main when as it was supposed to undergo maintenance in the first place, meaning that Spike really is the universe's punching bag in this episode.