Broken Base Cleanup

• Broken Base: Unfortunately, Minecraft is about as good at causing conflict as a harmless Babelfish, despite destroying many barriers of communication between human beings. Almost every update somehow breaks the fan base into smaller and smaller pieces. Jeb even named a law after this phenomenon (whatever change you make someone ''will'' complain), and Mojang seems to have taken this and given up trying to please the player base, seeing it's near impossible.
  • The biggest one came from the enchantment system that uses experience points to power up tools and armor. This caused the fan base to be split up between people who were for the feature and others that were against it by saying how the game was now too much like an RPG.
  • The 1.8 beta "Adventure" update was particularly divisive, since it introduced a hunger bar, experience points, potion-making, the Creative mode, a new method of terrain generation, and more pre-existing structures like strongholds, abandoned mineshafts, and NPC villages, believing that the game was turning into a fantasy RPG instead of a survival sandbox. Many older players (those from beta 1.7 or earlier) either consider this update to be the one that ended Minecraft's "Golden Age" or the one that started it.
  • Some fans believe potions should be made stackable so you could carry around more potions without them taking up too much space in your inventory. Any fans who think otherwise say that this'll make them over-powered.
  • The nerf to bone meal. Some believed having to use bone meal multiple times on a single crop to make it fully grow made growing crops difficult for no reason, while others say the nerf helped cut back on making farming too easy.
  • The 1.6 Horse Update left the fanbase divided, one of the more controversial features being the increase in zombie capabilities. To some, it was a welcome challenge to a game that had gotten too easy. To others, it was either annoying, or an unnecessary change that shouldn't have been applied to Easy and Normal modes. That's not even bringing up the horses themselves; depending on who you ask, they were either a fantastic new mob and a much-needed method of transportation, or a completely unnecessary addition that managed to steal away the last unique trait of the pig.
  • The 1.8 Bountiful Update, despite all the nice additions like slime blocks, was also criticized due to the changes that, directly or indirectly, made farms less practical. Slime farms were ruined because slimes now float, some types of witch farms were ruined because a creeper could appear and blow up against the golem, the village mechanics behind iron farms suffered a complete overhaul... Although new designs to circumvent these changes appeared, they were still many complaints. Besides that, it saw the reintroduction of village sieges, which lead many to claim that villages were now irrevocably doomed, because the zombies had been boosted since last time sieges were seen, making them much more dangerous, while villagers hadn't been given anything to compensate.
  • One of the snapshots showed single player and multiplayer being combined as one. This means that when you play alone, you still connect to a server, namely yours. Fans somehow interpreted the changes as letting anyone, griefers included, getting into your game unannounced and how being on a server will lag the game even more. Others counter that single player and multiplayer coding will be the same so bug fixes can be done faster and how online games will have invites instead of open servers. One change that most agreed was for the worse though was that pausing the game was now not possible even in single player.
  • Notch was going to charge for access to the source code later. 3 guesses what the fan reaction was. Notch reconsidered and changed the price to the outrageous price of free. There are now people complaining about access to the source code being free.
  • The fan base is divided over who is the better developer of the game. Once Jeb took over as head developer after Notch stepped down and started to push out more features, people either say Jeb is awesome and Notch sucks or how Jeb is changing too many things.
  • Every update always brings about a flame war over whether or not Minecraft was better off with Notch or Jeb.
  • So, so much from the 1.9 update:
    • With the announcement that, while dual-wielding weapons will be possible, but the off-hand can't swing, the fanbase argued over the concept. Is dual-wielding a terrible idea that, if implemented, would break PvP entirely, or is it a cool thought that's deliberately being neglected by Dinnerbone? Dinnerbone himself even lampshaded the fact that some of the people complaining about the uselessness of dual-wielding weapons wanted Mojang to remove the ability to "spam click".
    • The features shown to be in 1.9 brought back the "too much RPG" argument. However, the combat changes had people saying Minecraft is becoming an MMORPG... in the ways that have turned them away from those.
    • The expansion of the End. While some were happy that the End was going to be a much more worthwhile experience, others were disappointed that nothing was done to make oceans more than flooded gravel pits populated by squids.
    • The initial lack of snapshots for the update, which was by far one of the more hyped-up updates, had some people accusing Mojang of being "lazy" while others say the lack of snapshots means that they want to release a perfect sample on the first try. Then it was announced that the first snapshot would not be including shields, one of the major things included in the update. Cue people attacking Mojang for withholding features to get the snapshot out even though they had almost a year to develop the update after the release of 1.8.
    • The attack recharge mechanic for 1.9 was very controversial. Basically, if you tried to spam attack, your attacks won't be as effective. Some saw it as the end of spam click tactics, while others said it screwed over both PvP and PvE players by ruining a tactic that was somewhat reliable, and would throw off players used to the old way of attacking. A lot of fans said it also makes combat unbearably slow. Some even pointed out the good and bad sides to it adding a new layer of complexity to combat. Advocates hoped that it would get reworked, while critics mostly wanted it removed completely.
    • The announcement of enchanted golden apples being nerfed in 1.9. Fans in favor of this said that this was a good thing, because the methods of killing a player under its effects (spamming attacks and the Sharpness enchantment) were nerfed, making the enchanted golden apple a true Game-Breaker. Those against it argued that it took far too much effort to either find the 72 gold ore required or set up a Zombie Pigman farm in the Nether and killing more than a thousand Pigmen for the apple to give less than its current effects, as well as the achievement for crafting one being called Overpowered. Some critics of the nerf would've much rather taken a nerf to gold farms, a change that the developers didn't want to make.
    • For a while, tipped arrows couldn't be created in survival. The method introduced for creating tipped arrows was firing them into clouds created by lingering potions. While some felt this was balanced, as lingering potions could only be made after reaching the End, others believe this method was rather obtuse.
    • The Wii U version of Minecraft finally releasing on December 17th, 2015. Some Nintendo fans thought it was too late, while others thought it was better late than never.
    • One of the later 1.9 snapshots partially reverted the nerf to "spam-clicking", so that attacking rapidly would no longer do Scratch Damage. Good news for combat for pros and noobs alike, or a return to brainless flailing around?
    • Some 1.9 snapshots changed some sounds in the game. Some people liked the new sounds while others preferred the old sounds.
  • Some enjoy the game running in Java because Java is compatible with pretty much every modern PC and the accessibility of Java helped contribute to Minecraft's huge modding scene, but others hate it since even dedicated gaming rigs have trouble running Minecraft on Java.
  • The "Minecraft Marketplace". Some like that fan content creators have a new infrastructure to reach a wider audience and can earn money on their work with Mojang's blessing. Others see it as nothing more than the inevitable money-grab that is the inevitable result of the purchase by Microsoft.
  • The "Better Together" update, ironically. Some people are happy to have cross-platform play between Win10, mobile, Xbox One, and Nintendo Switch, while others preferred the old Console edition over the new unified "Bedrock Edition." Not helped is the fact that the initial release was an Obvious Beta.
  • For Minecon 2017, fans were given the option to vote for one of four new mob concepts to be added to the game. Some fans were happy to have input on the game, others were annoyed that Mojang didn't just add all four mobs, calling the developers lazy. Still others have pointed out that the idea of a fan vote will only serve to break the base further by alienating fans who voted for the losing mobs (a vote among four candidates means as many as 74% of the voters will "lose" and as few as 26% will "win"). Not helping is the fact that when the four concepts were first revealed, the announcement said that after the vote the three losing concepts would be "gone forever".
  • The decision to re-label Minecraft Pocket Edition as simply "Minecraft" and the old PC/Mac edition as "Minecraft: Java Edition" raises the question of which release line is the "true" Minecraft. Some were glad the game was reaching a wider audience. Others, particularly longtime PC veterans, were irritated that the version that was around the longest was apparently being sidelined in favor of a "dumbed-down" mobile port.
  • A dev's comment on the inability to ride dolphins caused rather poor reactions. Was the reasoning hypocritical, given how one could commit acts that would give the entirety of PETA conniptions in-game, or a friendly joke?
  • The texture overhaul for Java 1.14 and Bedrock 1.10 was yet another contentious issue. Although most of the changes were subtle, and the original textures would still be available in the settings, fans were split between loving the redesign and thinking it was unacceptably ugly.
  • Even though the Nether Update's new features as a whole are very well liked, the redesign of the Zombie Pigmen is more controversial. Some think that the new model looks great, like it for being consistent with the new Piglins and are glad that the Zombie Pigmen were kept in some form, while others think it's too similar to the Piglin model and loses essential features of the original Zombie Pigmen that were part of their charm. However, both sides generally agree that the new name (Zombified Piglin) is too much of a mouthful.

While the 1.9 combat update is definitely the case, I don't know with the other cases...

And "Breaks the fanbase into smaller pieces" is simply prime Flame Bait.

Edited by ChestReciever on Apr 27th 2020 at 1:42:21 AM

Broken Base is not for cataloging every minor disagreement any two fans have ever had.

None of the above describes a sustained and especially vitriolic split. It's just, "thing happened; some people thought it was good some people thought it was bad." Fandoms Sit On Chairs.

I found this entry on Victorious:

• The Signature Scene where Tori pulls out her wig, revealing she was actually a pretty girl all along, and sings "Freak the Freak out", winning over the audience of "Karaoke Dokie". While many fans enjoyed it, there are also some who believed that it send a Family-Unfriendly Aesop, saying that you become truly famous only when you are beautiful.

I have never heard anyone complain about this scene, but even if there is I don't think it is enough of a debate to be listed. Add to that the tropr who added seems to really hate the episode adding a Family-Unfriendly Aesop entry about it and an Ensemble Dark Horse for one guy who cheered for the disguised Tori ( who by the way I don't think counts as that, but I could be wrong there). And I question if it it's legit.

Edited by Bullman on Apr 27th 2020 at 4:09:09 AM

Ok, but the Minecraft Combat update was quite controversial and I think it still is to this day, meaning I'll either leave it or it should be reworked.

BTW, the link for the YMMV page is this: YMMV.Minecraft

Edited by ChestReciever on Apr 27th 2020 at 2:12:26 AM

As written, the Victorious example is a one-sided complaint, not a two-sided heated, sustained conflict. I think it can be removed.

Edit: Actually, I misread it. It does put in a token "some people enjoyed it".

Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Apr 27th 2020 at 3:22:08 AM

My problem is more that I have never heard it complained about anywhere else. The episode is was mostly well received for the songs and the team up between the three female leads, and the moment it's self is rarely talked about. I don't how many people hate it or how divisive it is because I have not been able to find anywhere where it's debated to the point it's a Broken Base. I could be wrong however. I don't know. Maybe it is highly debated. Which is why I brought it here.

Edited by Bullman on Apr 27th 2020 at 5:42:56 AM

I would be interested in reading a write-up that was written to be comprehensible to someone who doesn't play Minecraft. Broken Base is about the base, not the work per se. Obviously the work is going to come up, but the entry shouldn't need to go into such detail about specific game mechanics and systems that it reads like Greek to a non-player.

Edited by HighCrate on Apr 27th 2020 at 5:42:47 AM

Now that six months have passed, Broken Base examples have been added to YMMV.Pokemon Sword And Shield. We should determine which examples are valid to make sure things don't get out of hand. We previously cleaned up BrokenBase.Pokemon Sun And Moon since several of the examples on that page were either short-lived or minor issues. Here are the current examples reference:

• National Dex Removal: Definite keep. This has been one of the most contentious issues within the fandom since it was announced.
• Mandatory EXP share: Keep. This has also been contentious, but both camps agree that there should have been a way to toggle it off.
• The plot: Keep, but could use some more detail. There are players who enjoyed the plot despite its simplicity.
• Whether the game is a worthy addition: Cut. This falls into the "Is this work good or bad?" misuse and this is already covered by Contested Sequel.

Edited by ADrago on May 15th 2020 at 3:34:43 PM

All of those writeups fall into the general format of "[thing]: good thing or bad thing?"

A Broken Base is a sustained and bitter split among the fanbase. The "sustained" and "bitter" parts are just as important for full context as explaining what caused the split, and right now they are going completely unaddressed.

On YMMV.Legacy Of The Force, there is this entry:

• Broken Base: Less so than New Jedi Order as far as reception goes - the majority of Star Wars fans have expressed distaste with the series, while a minority enjoy it.

Does it really count if the defenders are a much smaller side than the detractors?

Edited by harryhenry on May 16th 2020 at 1:28:17 AM

The sides don't need to be equal, but they need to be significant (not just lone dissenters without the numbers to cohere into a "side"), and the split needs to be sustained and acrimonious.

It might count or it might not, but the entry text as written doesn't make a good case.

Edited by HighCrate on May 15th 2020 at 4:22:24 AM

I found myself over here after wondering what happened to the ketchup-related one after having a discussion about views on ketchup in Chicago. So here are my thoughts, at least on the Pokémon-related ones:

The single biggest dividing issue in the franchise is which generation people prefer. Nearly every fan has one particular generation of Pokémon or games they like over the others (the largest factions being Generation I and whatever is the most recent generation), and there are enough of them who attack people who like other generations that arguments have not subsided since Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire, which was released almost 20 years ago (and, for the record, is Generation III out of 8 so far). I would say this aspect of the franchise has much in common with Ruined Forever.

The second biggest dividing issue is shipping in general. Bulbapedia lists a mind-bogglingly large number of ships involving every major character in the anime and in the game, and Ship-to-Ship Combat happens on a scale I've never seen in any other fandom. I have even been attacked many times for not participating in shipping while discussing Pokémon; these attacks were out of the blue because the discussions had nothing to do with these people's preferred ships. They just have a With Us or Against Us mindset.

The Pokédex cut in Pokémon Sword and Shield is by far the biggest issue with the games. Roughly 60% of all Pokémon had been made unplayable in these games, which meant a LOT of people's favorites couldn't be brought over. This is a mirror of what happened to Pokémon Black and White, which prevented you from using ANY pre-existing Pokémon at all until you completed the game (but allowed you to bring any of them over after that). Even now, Pokémon Black and White is the single most Love It or Hate It entry in the franchise, and we're seeing a History Repeats, of sorts, with Pokémon Sword and Shield. There has been a major Author's Saving Throw in DLC expansions which will add in a large amount of pre-existing Pokémon initially removed from the games, and the first one comes out next month. It was announced back in February 2020, but it has already created a lot of heat in the fandom because 1) this first expansion only brings over about 100 pre-existing species out of about 600 removed, meaning those not satisfied until every Pokémon comes back saw this as an insult, and 2) it costs half as much as the base game, creating complaints that they are now paying over twice as much as they would have for Pokémon Sun and Moon (in US dollars, Sword or Shield would be $90 with the DLC expansions, while Sun or Moon were $40 new).

That latter one appears to be a growing pain of a AAA franchise that was once exclusively handheld moving to a non-handheld system, as most of those fans complaining about the higher price have only ever played handheld systems and are not used to them being above Nintendo 3DS pricing.

Of course, there are also plenty who defend Pokémon Sword and Shield (admittedly, I am one of them) and those who sympathize with Game Freak due to this game's Troubled Production. I'd say at least the majority of people are happy to have another Pokémon game at all, and some even happier that it's finally made the jump to HD. For some, their favorites really did make it in and that really satisfies them. For some others, the new Pokémon are so good that it doesn't matter. And for I think the largest group of defenders of all, they absolutely don't care that some Pokémon didn't make it in, as long as the existing ones make for a fun story experience. Problem is that there is a combination of the Pokédex cut people being incredibly belligerent, constantly verbally attacking Game Freak through their social media accounts, and a group of equally belligerent defenders. They are stoking each other's fires on social media, and them being in the same virtual space is what has kept the conflict ongoing and sometimes spreading to other Pokémon fan spaces.

For the record, there is a major Casual-Competitive Conflict going on with Sword and Shield right now, and I don't see it going away any time soon...though it maybe more accurately described as Casual-and-Competitive Other-Competitive Conflict. By the standards I've read in this thread (and I went through the whole thing today...well, almost, as I began on Page 2), I am iffy if this would count or not, but a new mechanic added into Sword and Shield Dynamax and the closely-related Gigantamax, is considered by some fans a Game-Breaker and an instant Scrappy Mechanic—but only in single battles (1 Pokémon per side at a time) played with full teams. This is the standard on Smogon, where they were banned a month into Sword and Shield's release. Official formats, including all online battling and official tournaments, are single battles with 3 Pokémon selected into the battle or double battles (2 Pokémon per side at a time) with 4 Pokémon selected, with the rest of the team not participating. Dynamax and Gigantamax had proven to be not nearly as overpowered under these rules. As a result, a lot of arguments come up over this game on whether Dynamax and Gigantamax are terrible mechanics and should be excised out of the franchise as soon as possible or is a terrific mechanic that has brought some Pokémon into the spotlight that never did before (most notably Butterfree, who for the first time wound up on a regional tournament champion's team thanks to this mechanic), and they fall neatly into which battling rules these fans prefer. The Max-disliking side does get an ally in fans of Z-Moves and Mega Evolution, however, which are mechanics removed in Sword and Shield, and they're bitter that those were removed in faovr of Dynamax and Gigantamax.

I hope this all makes sense; I'll explain anything that doesn't.

Edited by ZombieAladdin on May 26th 2020 at 8:08:25 AM

Probably a minor nitpick, but the DLC business model for Sword/Shield should really be compared to buying both one of Sun/Moon and Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon, since that’s how additional content was handled previously. In that regard, there’s only a $10 increase in price, which is not significant to the bulk of the fanbase.

Yeah, it's an extension of the Updated Re-release phenomenon in Pokémon games, in which an improved version of the game would come out a year or two later...which has its own split in the fanbase between those who buy them both, which that would apply to; and those who only buy one of the two games, which it wouldn't. In any case, though, the ones who buy just one are quite irked at this practice, since they would need to spend $90 where they previously only spent $40 (especially those who wait for the re-release, because the DLC has essentially replaced it).

That divide itself probably wouldn't qualify under this trope's new rules though, since despite the levels of anger both sides produce, it has a large neutral majority, though said majority's position depends on the country. To my knowledge, the Japanese players are more likely to buy both the original game and the re-release, while buying only the original game and ignoring the re-release is more common everywhere else. (This can be seen in Pokémon Black 2 and White 2, the most pronounced case. It's the only main-series Pokémon game in which Japanese sales outnumber every other country combined.)

Edited by ZombieAladdin on May 27th 2020 at 8:54:33 AM

I have a question about this entry in Fire Emblem Warriors:

Not only do I not see a long bitter conflict about Iago's inclusion in the game, but this entry is giving me some red flags because the troper who added it has a history of wonking about Fire Emblem Fates, particularly about the villains Garon, Iago, and Hans. I don't know if I'm being paranoid, but this entry feels like it's trying to stealth complain.

Found this on YMMV.Whats New Scooby Doo:

• Broken Base: The series as a whole. Is it too similar to the original? Fans of the late 90s, early 2000s direct-to-video films such as Zombie Island and Cyber Chase often complain the reboot is too strict to formula and generally not as fun (or well animated). Fans of the original pre-Scrappy cartoons may complain that it's too "modern" and "realistic" compared to the older shows, along with over-lampshading the old formula and not being as scary.

This entry doesn’t provide any examples of positive views of the series.

Remove since it's a "is this work good or bad?" example, which is misuse of Broken Base since detractors aren't part of the base.

Bringing up this example from YMMV.Godzilla King Of The Monsters 2019:

• Broken Base: Most fans will say that the hate from critics got was completely undeserved. Other fans, however, have said that is really was deserved. Some have said that the human characters being boring and like the post above, base-breaking, the sound effects drowning out the music, terrible use of the Oxygen Destroyer, and Mothra and Rodan not really doing much are all factors for them to call it So Okay, It's Average or just outright bad.

Cut. Typical "[thing]: worst thing or okayest thing?" shoehorning.

Bringing up the following example from YMMV.Bad Movie Beatdown:

• Broken Base: The Sucker Punch review is either a hilarious ripping of a pretentious movie, or one Double Standard joke after another over a decent, if unexceptional film. Many blame JesuOtaku's involvement for this, as he's credited as a primary writer and it's clear through the review that he has a much stronger dislike for the film than Film Brain, especially when Film Brain states that he found a Deleted Scene would have been an improvement for the film (even if only a very slightly one) if left in, while JesuOtaku didn't care about it.

Does not describe a sustained, exceptionally vitriolic split among the fanbase. As a rule, I'm skeptical of any supposed Broken Base that centers on just one episode in a long-running series. "Some people like it, some people don't" isn't a Broken Base, it's called "people having opinions."

Edited by HighCrate on Jun 17th 2020 at 8:32:50 AM

I don't know about that, I think a single episode can be the cause of a broken base.

I didn't say I ruled it out categorically, I said it makes me skeptical. The entry writeup above does nothing to allay my skepticism.

This was added to the YMMV page for the The Rising Of The Shield Hero by Nubian Satyress. This seems very one-sided and so specific of an issue.

A serious point of contention is Naofumi's relationships with his female Love Interests. Raphtalia became one of the most beloved anime girls of 2019, with lots of fans finding her relationship with Naofumi sweet and extremely endearing. However, for others, this was offset with the fact Raphtalia, Melty (and to a lesser extent, Filo) are all introduced as young children. No matter how the plot justifies how aging works for the non-human characters, that makes the explicit and implied romances between them extremely uncomfortable for those fans. For added squick, most of the female characters who fall in love with him are also slaves who cannot disobey his orders in any way; regardless of how gentlemanly Naofumi is, for a lot of people that is just an added level of cringe. Even many fans who like the characters, and like the romantic tension with Naofumi, say that the problematic context makes things rather uncomfortable.

Yeah it's mostly one troper soapboxing their personal Single-Issue Wonk (itself an issue that is contentious within fandom culture as a whole due to its most notable proponents being a Vocal Minority) rather than a proper fandom divide. In my experience the kinds of people who get upset by that specific issue have usually already have written Shield Hero off as an alt-right power fantasy, and thus are not a part of the fanbase to begin with.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 19th 2020 at 7:02:02 AM