Broken Base Cleanup

I have another entry for the YMMV page of The Last Jedi, although it might overlap with an entry that already discusses Luke's characterization:

• Luke's brief impulse to kill Kylo Ren. Was it a chilling message showing that even Luke is still not safe from the temptations of The Dark Side. Or a move that is contradictory to his motivations from the original trilogy.

I say merge it with the other entry. While it's not the only contentious issue with Luke, it's easily the biggest.

Reposting from the previous page, so it doesn't get lost:

Bringing up these examples from The Peanuts Movie:

• Broken Base:
  • Showing the Little Red-Haired Girl on screen. Should the audience finally get to see how she looks after decades as The Unseen? Or should the audience continue to see her exclusively through Charlie Brown's eyes and his infatuation with her? This actually isn't the first time she's been shown on-camera^†  (It's Your First Kiss and the New Year's special both prominently featured her, the latter even having her speak – however, despite Schulz writing both, he insisted they "did not count"), but she's much more prominent here than ever before. Though it's worth noting that the movie, to its credit, actively avoids showing her face^note  (kind of… early on there are some shots where her face is fully visible, but they're usually out of focus and very brief, as well as framed such that obscuring her face would ironically draw more attention to it) until the last five minutes.
  • Opinions are split about the movie's ending. With a race against time to talk to the Little Red-Haired Girl, the universe as always conspires against Charlie Brown to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen. After one obstacle too many, Charlie Brown very nearly gives up hope and pleads for things to work out just this once. Sure enough, the universe decides to cut him a break and he makes it in time, and the movie ends with him receiving affirmation from the LRHG and his friends that he is indeed a good person. Some reviewers felt this totally violates Schulz's original comic, as Charlie Brown never wins. Others felt that having Chuck not lose is a nice change of pace, making the LRHG Charlie Brown's pen pal is a good compromise, and that some traditions are meant to be broken; there's also the opinion that the ending balances out the excessively cruel endings to some of the earlier specials. Plus, giving Charlie Brown a happy ending makes sense since Fox only had the rights to make one movie.

Edited by Anddrix on Jul 14th 2018 at 2:03:23 PM

Quick question. The current rule is it has to have a six month wait for an entry to be valid correct? I'm seeing entries that are coming out for things with a week passing for some.

Feel free to bring them up here.

First one is from Critical Role.

• After Episode 26, there's been a fairly large split on whether Mollymauk should stay dead or not. On the one hand, it would make this the first case of a permanent party death in the series (and the first party departure since Scanlan took off in Campaign One) and could open up interesting narrative options for the survivors, while on the other it would give a good reason to use Matt's Lingering Soul class that he created for just such circumstances (and Mollymauk being a Ghostslayer Blood Hunter would give him a more justified reason for sticking around since he has some knowledge of the nature of the spirit). The latter camp also thinks that Molly has a lot of backstory and potential as a character that they don't want to see wasted.

Second one is from Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

• The fact that Broly will be in it divided few fans. There are those who hate him and are tired of Broly for simply existing, fans of Broly who are glad to see him finally canonized in the mainline Dragon Ball universe as opposed to being a Non-Serial Movie character, the fans who do like Broly but not his character (i.e hating Goku because "he cried. A lot. For like, three hours"), and the camp looking forward to his revamped character rather than the infamous pitiful excuse he was given in the 8th movie.

These both are recent, barely a week old.

If six months haven't passed yet, take them out.

So it's been 3 days, any chance I could get a response regarding the examples I brought up here ?

Haven't seen the movie but:

• The part about showing the Red-Haired girl sounds like a fringe issue, not to mentioned shoehorned in since this apparently isn't the first time we've seen her.
• The second point seems valid, but I'd suggest unspoiling "the movie's ending" so people can have at least some idea about what's being hidden.

Edited by mrbits on Jul 18th 2018 at 2:02:09 AM

So a while ago, Spider-Man: Homecoming used to have its own Broken Base page, but it was cut because it was made before the movie even came out. It seems like there's still a side effect of this, as the YMMV page has a lot of entries listed for a film that was generally well-received among the fanbase. I'd appreciate some feedback on these points, but here are my thoughts on each entry:

Ehh, this was kind of a big deal when the film was first announced. Now, I think most people are onboard with a new Spider-Man and are relieved the MCU didn't have to carry the baggage of the Amazing Spider-Man films. I could go either way on this, but I'm leaning on Cut.

Again, a bigger deal when it was first announced. I think making Aunt May younger still gets occasionally mocked, but not to particularly heated lengths. Again, I'm leaning on Cut for this.

I haven't seen anyone really complain about the Vulture's suit. I've seen people thinking it looks badass, but not a lot of people wishing it was more comic accurate. Cut.

Do we really need to list people complaining about a diverse cast? If they white, they'd still be different from their comic counterparts. Cut.

Ah, here's something a bit more reasonable. I think this could be merged with the next entry, but the film downplaying Peter's Teen Genius aspects has been a divisive aspect about the film and the MCU's depiction of Peter. Keep.

Tony's relationship with Peter is probably the most divisive aspect of the film. It's pretty dang obvious this entry was before the film was out, as it mentions how fans were worried that Iron Man would overshadow Spider-Man when he only appears for a handful of scenes. But whether Tony being a mentor to Peter is a good way to depict Spidey in the MCU is still an argument I see happen from time to time. Keep, but Rewrite.

Almost everyone who's watched the film thinks the reveal is one of the best scenes of the movie, as it leads to showing just how intimidating Toomes can be even outside of the suit. I've read many people describe how this was one of the most tension-inducing scenes in the MCU at that point, and very little describe as a cliched. Cut.

Yeah, this can stay. Uncle Ben is usually one of the most defining people in Peter's life, but he's hardly mentioned in the MCU films. Some are okay with this, others aren't. Keep.

Eh. I haven't seen many people argue about this scene. I think people generally liked it though. I want see other people weigh in on how prevalent this argument is amongst the fandom, but I'm leaning towards 'Cut.

Again, the movie was generally well-received from what I can tell. There are certainly people who don't consider it the best Spider-Man movie or the best MCU movie, but I think there's only a small fraction of people who'd call it a bad film. Maybe this would fit under Contested Sequel. I also don't think we're supposed to list entire entries here, since detractors aren't considered a part of the fanbase.

Those are my thoughts. I think some entries do need to be cut though. Anyone else want to weigh in here?

I agree with the cuts and keeps. Though I don't think Spider-Man: Homecoming has enough detractors to be considered a Contested Sequel since it was generally well-received, and I haven't really seen anyone call it a bad movie.

His review of Octopath Traveler has been quite contentious. Many feel like Dunkey intentionally misrepresented the game's combat system in the random counter he showed off by only bringing one character into battle and not trying to use any of the game's main mechanics to speed up the fight. Some also feel iffy about the fact that he didn't play any of the story beyond chapter 1, feeling it hypocritical after he took the time to complain about a reviewer not completing Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy before reviewing it in his game critics video.

Someone added this to the YMMV for Let's Play/Videogamedunkey. The video has been out for only like, two weeks at most. I've removed it already and it was readded. I removed it already, but want to verify if it has no basis right now.

That example would fit better under He Panned It Now He Sucks.

I'm also inclined to agree that most of that should be cut. I'll defer on the details, since all I really know about the movie's reception is that it was distinctly better received than Amazing Spider-Man 2 and Tony Stark's role was controversial, but the way those entries are written tends to smack of being done more by a troper grinding an axe than anything.

Edited by nrjxll on Jul 29th 2018 at 5:31:03 AM

@chasemaddigan

I actually have seen a lot of people criticize this scene, so I'd actually argue towards a Keep.

Whilst I have seen only a very small minority of people who consider this to be a bad movie, I have also seen an equal amount of people who think Homecoming was both a good movie and a good Spider-Man adaptation, and people who think Homecoming was a good movie in it's own right but doesn't really work as an adaption of the Spider-Man comics. But I'm not sure whether that's enough to justify keeping it or not.

I just removed those from the upcoming season of The Flash (2014)

• Broken Base: The decision to make Ralph a series regular has left many fans either unhappy and pessimistic that he will continue to constantly go back on his character development, or hoping that the writers will listen to everyones complaints and make sure his character development sticks and he could be Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.
  • Some people aren't glad about the likelihood of another Wells, thinking that similar to HR, he will be a Replacement Scrappy for the much more popular Harry who was the main Wells last season which fans were happy about. Others think that he could turn out to be a good character, especially with Tom Cavanagh's acting potentially being able to make him as popular as Harry or Thawne.

Uh the second one is speculation and Ralph is defiently controversial in the fandom but this is just speculating as nothing has come up yet. So cutting both isfine.

I made my cuts to the Spider-Man: Homecoming examples. It went from ten entries to four, which I think is a more reasonable amount for a single film. I may rewrite some of the entries if there's any issue with them, but the more petty arguments are no longer listed.

Ok this was recenlty added on YMMV.Duck Tales 2017

• Broken Base: Quite a few things about the show are divisive.
  • The show has a bit more of a cynical streak due to the increased angst the characters go through. There are those who think the show is going a bit too far in copying some other shows and making things a slog to sit through, or those who praise the show for going in a bold direction.
  • Frank Agones mentioned in a tumblr post from July 2018 that the focus of the series is more on the kids than the adults. There are those who don't like how characters such as Scrooge and Donald get sidelined, while there are those who are fine with it, or at least not bothered by it.
  • The beginning of "Beware The Buddy System" has divided fans, but not in the way you think. It's actually well received. It shows Dark Wing Duck , but as an in-universe television series rather than the real thing. There are those who find it a missed opportunity to have a proper crossover, or those who accept it for what it is. . For what it's worth, Frank Angones did say they would follow up on this, and he was a fan of the original series.
  • A smaller example of this is the fact that Scrooge's parents being alive and immortal meant that the famous steamboat destruction event, one of Scrooge's most iconic feats in his life didn't and cannot happen in this canon.^note One of the requirements for it to happen is his mother's death. Without it, there wouldn't be any letter for the Soapy Slick in here to rub in Scrooge's face when he abducts him. Considering that this series was meant to be more faithful to the Carl Barks comics, this decision didn't go well with some fans.

The first one seems to be more about "general reception" than Broken Base, I don't think fans of the show would say that it's a slog to sit through.

The second is about a tumblr post posted last month, I suppose it fails the sustained criterion. That being said the fact that Donald gets sidelined is something that do get criticism.

The third is about an episode that aired on May 11 a bit more than three months ago. I suppose it too fails the sustained criterion.

The last is a one-sided complain. And the episode with said revelation came out two weeks ago.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 15th 2018 at 2:50:30 PM

I don't think any of those are valid examples as written. If the second point is a common point of criticism and disagreement, it could use a rewrite.

I also believe these examples on YMMV.Chuggaaconroy could use a look:

* Broken Base:

** Fan response to his Sonic Colors LP was rather mixed, which he mentioned in one of the last episodes of that LP. Complaints ranged from how Chuggaaconroy is wasting time on a non-Nintendo game, Chugga's lack of skill regarding the game, to Chugga choosing to do Colors when other Sonic games deserved an LP from him first. Then again, it is a Sonic game.

** A similar response was held for his Let's Play of Ōkami, since it was a non-Nintendo game and (at the time) a sort of obscure franchise in general. However, Chugga actually pointed this out several times during his playthrough, and continued to say he was playing the game specifically because it was one of his favorite games of all times and he wanted more people to know about it.

** Either Xenoblade Chronicles was Chugga's best LP, on account of the sheer amount of dedication, passion, and love went into it, or his worst LP, due to how long it was originally, coupled with the hiatuses, making it take a full year to get through.

** Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga was a rather quick LP because of how powerful Chugga has made the Mario Bros. Some wish he'd try impair himself to drag it out a bit more, while others (particularly those who lost interest in Xenoblade) are grateful for the pacing.

** Emile's insistence on not showing off any special events in his Pokémon LPs. While one camp agrees that it would be unfair for him to showcase parts of the game that are no longer legally accessible and that trying to hack in the events would put his save data at too great of a risk, many others desperately want him to play through them on-camera rather than just talk about or allude to them. The latter opinion has become more prominent as a result of many other popular Let's-Players taking the risk and successfully showing off these events in their videos, and after Emile demonstrated the Southern Island event in a bonus video of his Pokémon Emerald playthrough.^Note This event is a notable exception to his "no parts of the game that can't be legally accessed anymore" rule, as it is activated through the use of a special e-Reader card rather than through Mystery Gift or distribution cartridges (which are legally purchasable, but are ludicrously expensive and have the possibility of being defunct). Despite the fact that Emile needed to spend over $100 to get the card's associated event item into his copy of Emerald as a result of the game's lack of e-Reader support (he needed to scan the card into a copy of Ruby & Sapphire whose save file had mixed records with another Third-Gen Pokémon game less than five times, then mix records between the RS cartridge and the Emerald cartridge to transfer the event item into the latter), said process is entirely doable by anyone with the necessary supplies and does not run the risk of running into any legal gray areas or harming any save files, hence why he chose to show off Southern Island.

• Sonic Colors LP: This is entry is just one-sided complaining as it doesn't explain the positive side of the reception. Cut.
• Okami LP: I'd say this is a Zero-Context Example since it doesn't explain what is divisive about the LP. Cut.
• Xenoblade LP: This fails to meet the "no middle ground" requirement as there are plenty of fans who feel that it is neither his best nor worst LP. Cut.
• Mario And Luigi LP: Fails to meet the "sustained conflict" requirement as no one is arguing about it a few years after the LP was finished. Cut.
• Not showing off special events in Pokemon LPs: I'm leaning keep since this has been a point of contention.

Edited by ADrago on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:40:40 AM

My bad, wrong thread, please ignore

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 17th 2018 at 1:28:07 PM

Agreed on cutting everything but the Pokemon one.

I'm not familiar Chuggaaconroy but those don't look like good examples.

This was also added on Ducktales

• The art style of the show also divides the audience. Some like the modern, sketchy, angular designs and the comic book-like visual style, while others consider it outright ugly and would prefer something closer to the Classic Disney Shorts or the 1987 series. The latter group sometimes brings up Legend of the Three Caballeros as comparison, as that show managed to pull off a "classic Disney" visual style in modern animation.
• The fanbase seems to be split on the storytelling approach of the show. Half of the fans want the show to have more adventure arcs, fun oneshot episodes and rotating protagonists. The other half want more serialized stories, a more grounded tone, and a select focus on lasting character development.

Like the above, it seems to fall under broad reception or minor disagreements. Do I have permission to cut?

EDIT: I took the initiative to remove those YMMV.Duck Tales 2017 S 1 E 24 The Shadow War Part II The Day Of The Ducks from because 1) They're all one sided complains 2) the episode aired last weekend.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 21st 2018 at 7:08:20 PM

I can't say I'm too invested in the Ducktales fandom, but I've seen parts of it, and all I can say is that the fanbase is so huge that I doubt it's split into two factions for those issues. There's a huge number of fans who like either. I'd only allow them if there's a strong argument for why there isn't a huge middle ground.

Bringing up this example from Web Warriors:

• Broken Base: Spider-Gwen's inclusion in the series has been a matter of contention since it was first announced. Unlike the other members, Gwen actually has a solo-ongoing, so many detractors feared that Gwen would end up being the Spotlight-Stealing Squad here at the expense of less focused characters. On the other end, fans argued that her inclusion would only benefit the series given how hard of a sale it would have otherwise been.