Condemned by History cleanup thread

Is his music still good, but hard to talk about it without bringing up the controversy?

Last I checked, his older songs are still in pretty constant rotation on '80s stations. Anything from Bobby and beyond seems to be forgotten; I haven't heard "Humpin' Around" on the radio in years.

I'd delete that Bobby Brown entry. Not only because it's inaccurate (both The New Edition Story and The Bobby Brown Story have renewed interest in him and his music, something that in reading the entry, the troper probably isn't even aware that either film exists), but other factors in his personal life has made him more sympathetic, particularly the deaths of two of his adult children and the arising issues within Whitney's own family (namely in the public learning that it was her brother, not him, who got her addicted to drugs long before they even met).

Edited by Erin582 on Apr 2nd 2021 at 9:05:06 AM

Nevermind: I deleted it myself.

If a work or creator has to go from mostly loved to mostly hated to be here, why is Rob Liefield here? His entry outright says that he was never a critical favorite, despite being successful.

Someone probably just wrote misuse? It happens.

I understand Liefeld actually was pretty popular in the 90s, because he was the first artist not to try and copy Jack Kirby. His style is very dynamic, and at the time was unique, which made him stand out.

But then everybody copied him, which made his work not unique. People also came to realise the problems with his art, which is why he's now the go-to example of bad comic art.

This was in the page history for YMMV.Cool Cat Saves The Kids:

• Vindicated by History: Inverted to hell and back. When the film came out, it developed a semi-ironic fanbase due to its So Bad, It's Good status and the fact people were touched by Savage's misguided but good intentions about bully awareness. However when Savage began to attack those who criticized the film such as Bobsheaux and Alex of IHE, the film's reputation went from a silly but charming and well-intended indie movie to a Vanity Project run by a man with a Small Name, Big Ego.

Would it work as a Condemned by History example, or does it fail to meet the criteria?

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Apr 4th 2021 at 6:52:12 AM

Now that the trope has been broadened, can I re-add this, along with the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory 2005 film discussed here?

• Motion controls. When Nintendo launched the Wii with motion control as its controller gimmick, it was a huge hit, as it attracted a massive swath of casual and non-gamers brought in by the idea of being able to feel like they're actually in the game controlling their actions and not being limited by their finger dexterity, while even hardcore gamers were intrigued by this new innovative way of playing games and found some fun with Wii Sports. This boon would lead to the Wii becoming Nintendo's most succesful home console and at the time the second best-selling home console after the Play Station 2, and Sony and Microsoft would get in on the craze with the PlayStation Move and Kinect, offering more advanced motion control, particularly with the latter even ditching the need for any sort of controller and being able to sense your actual movements to control the game. Over time though motion control would become associated with shovelware as a deluge of shovelware games swamped the Wii and later the Kinect, Waggle as the vast majority of the time the "motion control" in a game came down to just lightly shaking your arm in a vague direction rather than having to do the actual motion being replicated ingame, and notorious unresponsiveness when games actually required more precise motion control. Sales for the Wii slowed dramatically in its later life as the fad died down and Nintendo would mostly abandon the concept with their followup console the Wii U, but the Wii branding was tarnished by then and reusing the branding is part of what made the Wii U fail. Then Microsoft decided to keep going with the Kinect on their next console, the Xbox One, but faced massive backlash when Microsoft initially announced that the Kinect would be required to use the console, with most gamers wanting nothing to do with motion controls at that point, and when combined with Microsoft's initially planed always-online DRM, people were concerned that Microsoft could use the Kinect to spy on them. Microsoft would backtrack from the Kinect and DRM requirement, but still bundle the Kinect with the launch Xbox Ones to inflate its price, which when combined with the reputation-damaging announcement, made the Xbox One stumble hard out of the gate and be left in the dust by Sony's much more successful Play Station 4, while support for the Kinect would be discontinued a few years later. Nintendo would bring back motion control capability with the Switch's Joy-Cons, but this feature only gets required in a scant few party games like 1-2-Switch and few other games optionally utilize it at all, while most gamers would have preferred if Nintendo just didn't bother with it. Nowadays when people think of the motion control era in video games they think of people flailing around like idiots and all the shovelware it brought, while only very few motion controlled games like the aforementioned Wii Sports are remembered fondly.

Why add Charlie back? The entire thread agreed it didn't fit, and it was a massive wall of text, as is that one.

The trope got broader, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean these examples suddenly count. Charlie for one thing isn't unanimously hated. People love the music for one, and it seems to have a decent cult following that actually prefer it to Willy Wonka.

RE: Charlie, this is just anecdotal but there's at least a following and appreciation for the film especially among younger fans like, well, me. It'll never supplant Willy Wonka in terms of pop culture impact, but its held its own place. For that reason I very much agree with not readding it.

Edited by harryhenry on Apr 6th 2021 at 5:12:22 AM

What about motion controls? I think the fact that the remaster of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, a game designed around motion controls, advertises that motion controls will now be optional indicates that public opinion has shifted against them.

Motion Control example is a wall of text

That entry for motion controls is a bit of a Wall of Text tho...

Hey that's what I said lol

Edited by PlasmaPower on Apr 6th 2021 at 9:23:49 AM

I know I always disliked motion controls and avoided using them whenever it was an option. Was public opinion ever really in favor of them?

I remember them being popular in the late 2000's / early 2010's (especially the Wii). Then again, I was just a kid then, so I wouldn't be aware of any backlash then if there was any. I do remember it being a hot commodity though.

Edited by magnumtropus on Apr 6th 2021 at 7:31:25 AM

I remember being all excited along with my parents for the Wii because of motion controls. Nowadays I mostly use it for either Smash Bros or light gun games.

Motion Controls still exists as gyroscope. And believe me, it's a lot easier to aim than manually moving the R-Stick around (Splatoon 2 and Monster Hunter Rise comes to mind).

Additionally, Skyward Sword still advertises Motion Controls via Joy-Cons but also note that as a handheld console, the Switch version requires an alternate means to play Skyward Sword on the go.

What is accurate to say is that while overt motion-controls are not so fondly remembered, it did lay the foundation of an integral part of modern controllers like the Playstation and of course, Nintendo (Microsoft, evidentially did not jump on the bandwagon yet).

Also Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is more of a King Kong situation rather than anything that would condemn it as a terrible movie. As in, it can never escape the original's shadow no matter how faithful or new it tries to be. Just like how King Kong 1976 and King Kong 2005 still live in the shadow of the 1933 classic. And honestly, I think Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory is overrated, with the exception of Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka. It's not helping the franchise if none of the new installments can escape the original's shadow. Kong was lucky he gets to do a crossover with Godzilla to make him more than just a giant ape that climbs a building and gets killed by aircrafts because he fell in love in with a blonde woman.

Let me see what I can do with that motion controls entry:

• Motion controls were the central gimmick of the Nintendo Wii, and between that and a strong selection of games that used the "Wiimote" well, the Wii was a huge hit, especially among casual gamers. However, it was poorly implemented by Microsoft and Sony, as well as by a number of third-party developers, which tarnished its reputation by the time The New '10s rolled in. The introduction of smartphones renewed interest in motion controls, and all modern consoles still use them, but the two-handed grip most controllers and phones use (as well as safety concerns caused by people accidentally throwing their Wiimotes across the room) meant that the Wiimote's one-handed grip was obsolete.

I'll say that entry is concise and is not a thinly vein excuse to bash motion controls, rather a fair analysis that acknowledges the benefits of motion controls even if the most well-known form has become an obsolete gimmick. In other words, well done.

I mentioned it in the discussion page, but I think that the emo and scene subculture and fashion example in the "Other" section should be removed. I still see plenty of people rock the look, along with people having general nostalgia for it and some even desiring to see it return, so I don't think it's truly condemned by history just yet.

Considering both scenes are having a nostalgic revival, I think its fair they are cut.

This was recently added:

• In Ice Hockey, there is a specific style of play called the "Neutral Zone Trap", where instead of attempting to attack the opponent's forecheck individually or take the puck in the defensive zone, all five players on a team will sit in the middle of the ice (The Neutral Zone) and attempt to force turnovers, prevent the other team from getting into their end without performing a "Dump-In" (where you shoot the puck behind the net and attempt to get it from there, often in a board battle), and in general prevent offense from occurring. While it had been around since the 30s and was occasionally used off and on by many coaches, it really came into prominence under Coach Lemaire of the New Jersey Devils, who won the 1995 Stanley Cup with it, and everyone began to Follow the Leader into making it an almost default style of coaching, creating the "Dead Puck Era". After the 2004 lockout however, both the league and the player's association began to have serious concerns about the lack of offense seen throughout the league as well as safety concerns^note  The Trap notoriously often exploited loose enforcement of interference, hooking, and holding penalties, which often meant guys could be almost piledrived into the boards without danger of being sent to the box for it, as well as a major rule change regarding 2-line passing all but creating both a hard counter to the Trap and effectively ending it by the 2010's, as rule changes and advances in player talent had all but ensured that the traditional version of the trap is pretty much dead, and anybody who uses even a modified version of it, such as coach Guy Boucher, is often derided harshly as being boring.

Legit or no?

Bumping for help with the above

• Dark Empire was incredibly popular when it came out, and the success of it and The Thrawn Trilogy convinced George Lucas to make the prequel trilogy. As time went on, Dark Empire became one of the most hated Star Wars Legends stories for bringing Palpatine Back from the Dead.

As is, the entry fails to explain why bringing them back was not seen as bad at the time but is now. If backlash over it happening in Rise of Skywalker the hate I've seen is directed at that movie while DE is seems forgotten, plus it makes it sound topical as opposed to this trope. From YMMV.Dark Empire:

• Popularity Polynomial: At the time it came out it was extremely popular. A decade later, it was widely regarded as absolute garbage, and admitting to liking it was seen as pretty much akin to saying that Greedo shooting first was a great idea. Nowadays, while it hasn't exactly swung back to being universally beloved, it tends to be regarded as, if nothing else, a decently entertaining story that at least doesn't suffer the various issues that the later Star Wars Legends works tended to suffer from.

Thoughts on it?