HoYay clean up

Yes but the problem is the pinpointing on when exactly Korvo and Terry became a couple. The show itself did not reveal the exact point but the writers said in an interview with inverse magazine said that Korvo and Terry became a couple somewhere around the first two seasons. I might have been season 2 since the subtext is more frequent and blatant especially with the kiss scene in the earth eraser episode.

Edited by Troperr2016 on Apr 6th 2021 at 7:45:03 AM

Inverse interview, dated March 2021

The way it's phrased ("never meant to be a couple", "I think we didn't know when we started writing it"), it sounds like there was a time when they weren't intentionally being written as a couple, which means at least some of the moments between them might actually fit under Ho Yay.

My impression from this interview is that the transition was from "not intentionally writing them as a couple" to "intentionally writing them as an established couple", rather than that the characters actually got together during the series. Like there may have been some level of retroactivity in their couple-ness.

If they're being written as an established couple, then Ship Tease wouldn't fit. However, Homoerotic Subtext may apply to moments where they're written as being like a couple without them just flat-out being a couple.

The Decider interview, dated May 2020

Okay, so tl;dr, based on these interviews, checking episode air dates, and looking through HoYay.Solar Opposites, I'd say most of these moments would better fit under Homoerotic Subtext.

• During “The Lake House Effect”,Yumulack, after getting fed up with being bullied at school due to his genitalia, decides to implant a large penis into himself to impress people. This has a huge effect on all the student in the school including the boys.

This one looks like it would go under Even the Guys Want Him instead.

I'm not sure about the moments from “The Lavatic Reactor” or “The Earth Eraser”, or about this one:

• The pet name of “Korvy” was also used by the grown-up red goobler in “The Rad Awesome Terrific Ray” in an affectionate way towards Korvo and they were both in a short lived gay relationship in that episode. This draws a lot of parallels with how Terry uses the word “Korvy” in many ways.

But the rest I'd say are Homoerotic Subtext.

ETA: I have moved the "Lake House" example to the episode Recap page as Even the Guys Want Him and requested a history move of the rest of the page to Homoerotic Subtext. Now to wait and see.

Edited by Twiddler on Apr 6th 2021 at 8:58:35 AM

Thank you so much for the cleanup with solar opposites. I did read both of the interviews and judging from how they were dated, I interpreted them as Flip-Flop of God and Word of Gay respectively. That is just my interpretation and I do believe that the inverse interview outright confirmed Korvo and Terry became a couple judging from what Roiland said. No need to respond.

Bringing up HoYay.A3 again, because I have revieved very little input.

To explain everything, A3 is a video game aimed at a female demographic. It features a Cast Full of Pretty Boys, and has gained a lengthy Ho Yay page. However, a lot of things are listed that would fit better under Homoerotic Subtext, or just any one of the romantic tropes out there. I'm tempted to move the whole thing, but the lack of input is making things hard. Here are a few obvious stand-outs:

• Itaru and Misumi: In hAve A greAt trip!, when the two are together on their free day off, Itaru remarks that hanging out with Misumi makes him feel like "all's right in the world". Later, when they encounter Tenma and Kazunari, the two say they're on a date together.
  Itaru: I was in the middle of a date with Misumi.
  Misumi: We're on a triangle date!
• The play Romeo and Julius. At the end of the play, Romeo and Julius left their family and town and went on a journey together, after faking their deaths.
  • It also doesn't help that the play is based on Romeo and Juliet.
• In The Great Sardine Search, Yuki and Kazunari were mistaken for a couple due to them doing couple-like things such as taking selfies together and getting matching mugs.

If anyone wants to give feedback on what to do with these specific examples, or the page as a whole, that would be appreciated. I'm temped to just cut the first two and move the third to Mistaken for Romance, if it's not already there.

Edited by GoldenCityBird on Apr 7th 2021 at 8:17:11 PM

I found a ho yay page for Paradise PD and dear lord it is an awful mess. We have examples of characters being Camp Gay, sexual acts, and people banging objects as examples. We should look it over to see what counts and what does not

Taking a look at the page It doesn't look like anything on it is an example.

The page should likely be cut.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 1:44:12 AM

Accidental Innuendo can overlap with Ho Yay and I don't see how "throwing stuff at a guy's penis as a gang" can't have some homoerotic undertones. The rest seems like a valid assessment though. Discomforting how many animal and object entries are here. Can Ho Yay apply if the animal or object is set up like another man though?

The reason why it's not an example is that it is something taken out of context so fitting more under the trope. And the other one is Not an Example since it seems to be intentional, though I probably should have lasted it like that. Even if animals and inanimate objects are allowed these examples are of literal sex so definitely not unintentional.

Either way, I doubt this page can be salvaged, sent it to the Cut List.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 10:31:35 AM

Not enough time to build consensus. Please resubmit after more consensus/time.

I've been obliviously moving some Ho Yay anime pages with deliberate lampshade and implications to Ship Tease while recording it in the wrong area, so I'm sorry for any "forever hold your peace" situation -

• The Ho Yay pages for Sailor Moon, Bang Dream, Gankutsuou and Sarazanmai are now in Ship Tease: Sailor Moon, BanG Dream!, Gankutsuou and Sarazanmai.
  • While the Sailor Moon examples read like deliberate lamp-shade or teasing, the rest have overt crushes and the latter is a Ikuhara anime, and even has a gay couple in it.

• Partially moved official couples and some overt ship-tease in Ho Yay page for CLAMP to a Ship Tease page, and included some of what was in the Anime & Manga Ship Tease page.
• Moved parts of Yokai Apartment Ho Yay page to a Ship Tease page.
  • I mainly went by "couple-like lampshading" or "crushing."
• Moved parts of Kyo Kara Maoh Ho Yay page to a Ship Tease page.
  • I mainly went by "couple-like lampshading" or "crushing," though I don't want to encourage in-fighting over ships so I can move them back if needed, or other people can move more over or write more. The demon characters are canonically LGB though.
• Moved Kawoshin from Ho Yay and what was in Anime & Manga Ship Tease page to a new Evangelion Ship Tease page.

This one definitely seems like it should be moved:

• Psycho-Pass - The majority of this page is talking about canon lesbian character and her relationship with another woman, or about another woman flustered around her. The less obvious Ho Yay could move back to YMMV.
  • Edit 5/9: Moved to a Ship Tease page.

I'm wondering about these:

• Yuki Yuna is a Hero - The entirety of the page reads like Ship Tease. I haven't gotten around to finishing the series though.
• Nabari no Ou - The series seems pretty teasy versus fan reaction, and the manga artist wrote an LGBT manga series, Shimanami Tasogare.

Really wondering about these:

• Puella Magi Madoka Magica - I read the movies made it so the Ship Tease was more obvious as Ship Tease. Have not watched the movies.
  • Even though it's high in subtext, I'm wondering what people think.
• Sk8 the Infinity - One of the main male protags, Langa, is highly implied to have a crush on the other, Reki. If done, I was thinking a partial move for Langa/Reki and Adam/Tadashi, since those seem the most deliberately teased in a couple-y way, with a mention of dubbed Cherry and Joe.
  • Strong subtext, but wondering what people think. It's a new series so it might be best to leave it alone; I've just been thinking about it because I've been focused on the series recently.
• Little Witch Academia (2017) - Although the series is No Hugging No Kissing, all its examples seem to fit better with Ship Tease ... but it is No Hugging No Kissing, so I don't know. Inbounds 85.
  • Edit 5/9: Moved portions of it to a Ship Tease page.
• El Cazador de la Bruja - the page reads like Ship Tease more than fan reaction, but when I watched it as a kid, it seemed more ambiguous versus a lot of series. I don't know.

Edited by perona on May 9th 2021 at 7:12:27 AM

I'm not sure moving entire pages should be the first resort, because it's possible that they might share unintentional and intentional examples even for the same individual pairing. It'd probably be better to approach examples on a case-by-case basis.

I unfortunately only realized that when thinking about CLAMP - for some of them I mainly moved the "more blatant ship-tease" portions.

The main move I'd regret regarding that is the Bang Dream page - the series isn't shy about "couple-like lampshading" and has crushes and implied or ambiguously sapphic characters (at least 4 when I last played the game), and seems to purposefully work off of fan interest on the former, but I realized a bunch of the examples properly listed might fall under Ho Yay after all.

I'm thinking about only moving the Psycho Pass examples with the sapphic characters in the immediate future.

I don't mind going example by example for the rest of the unmoved series! (Edit: And for moving some examples back for Bandori, and maybe Sarazanmai, if it doesn't cause trouble to recreate Ho Yay pages.)

Edited by perona on Apr 20th 2021 at 4:14:19 AM

Fiddled with moving some examples back onto Bang Dream's YMMV, but I'm just going to commit to being messy and leave Bang Dream and Sarazanmai in Ship Tease, unless people have huge objections.

I feel like it could get hard to differentiate what fits in "Les Yay" versus "Ship Tease" for Bang Dream, since there is a huge amount of ship tease.

For Sarazanmai I think the majority fits in Ship Tease - Enta has a canonical crush on Kazuki, and Tooi does get ship-teasy blushing moments around Kazuki, and there's an official gay couple.

But definitely won't leap to move anything non-canon without consulting here first from now on.

Edited by perona on Apr 20th 2021 at 10:26:57 AM

Re: Psycho Pass - I moved the sapphic couple into a Ship Tease page, but I can't remember much about this character. For anyone who watched the series - is this implying that Mika is sapphic, or is it more ambiguous because the best friend is male?

• Yayoi is the only Enforcer Mika will respect and listen to. Indeed, when Yayoi speaks, Mika is reduced to blushing and stuttering.
  • This is probably because Yayoi comforted Mika back in Season 1 when her best friend and potential lover was killed.

These examples are on YMMV.Wandering Witch The Journey Of Elaina

• Les Yay: Due to the premise of powerful witches and Elaina attracting admirers along with her journey, there are a lot of yuri vibes in the series:
  • Episode 2 introduces the novice witch Saya, who is all but confirmed to have a crush on Elaina. She even goes out of her way to secretly steal her brooch in order to get close to her, tells her that she wants her to stay by her side, and even sleeps in the same bed with her. Saya is even more upfront about it in Episode 6, much to Elaina's exasperation.
  • Episode 11 introduces Mina, Saya's sister, whose attraction to the latter is more than an ordinary sisterly love.
  • Volume 4 of the light novel introduces Amnesia, who also likes Elaina the same way Saya does.

I know they're not Ho Yay, but I'm trying to decide which, if any, trope they fall under. For context:

Saya is so in love with Elaina that in episode 11, she tries to quit the United Magic Association so she can marry Elaina (who never agreed to marriage). Also, in the eponymous episode 6, she says that her heart belongs to another, obviously referring to Elaina, after a guard calls her cute (Elaina responds, without looking at Saya, with "please don't look at me when you say that") so it's obvious that Saya's love for Elaina is well beyond unintentional subtext, and I'm not even sure it counts as intentional Homoerotic Subtext. Elaina's sexuality is unknown because she intentionally doesn't have a love interest, so I'm not sure if Incompatible Orientation qualifies either.

Mina is a bit more unusual. She was under the effect of a love gas at the time, and tried to kiss Saya (well, Elaina in Saya's body but Mina didn't know that). The love gas, though just amplifies people's feelings for each other, which does imply that Mina does have feelings for her big sister, but whether they're romantic is questionable.

Amnesia, meanwhile, does fall in love with Elaina (even using the words "I love you") multiple times, due to her curse ( she forgets everything that happened that day when she falls asleep). When said curse is lifted, she still loves Elaina, to Elaina's surprise. Again, we don't know if Elaina swings that way, but it's obvious that she doesn't feel the same way.

That the latter two are ZC Es can be fixed if I know which trope they fall under.

That's definitely not Homoerotic Subtext, it's just a character being in love with another character. It's probably Unrequited Love, and that's it. It's not Incompatible Orientation unless it is made explicit that the reason for the lack of reciprocation is orientation, which from your description, it isn't.

Edited by TheMountainKing on May 3rd 2021 at 1:17:52 PM

I don't think we have any specific tropes just for being gay, but it sounds like Saya fits the bill for Unrequited Love Tropes somewhere down the line. And Mina could go under a more specific form of Brother–Sister Incest.

From the Danganronpa Ho Yay page... I think Tenko and Himiko are Star-Crossed Lovers as one obsesses over the other, and the fact Himiko wants Tenko back more than anything when Korekiyo kills her, even threatening him with a death curse, I think that might fall under Homoerotic Subtext. That, and Tenko is pretty much the only character besides Himiko who is openly bisexual, YMMV on the "bisexual" part for Tenko as she generally hates men, crushes on every girl including ones not from her game, with the sole exception of Shuichi in her Love Hotel Suite who she treats as her master but wants him to get a sex change so she can feel comfortable having feelings for him, even in her Free Time Events. Though she isn't opposed to letting him "do anything he wants to her".

Mondo Owada and Kiyotaka Ishimaru also show little if no interest in the opposite gender especially Taka who basically died inside when Mondo was executed and even voted for himself as the blackened so Mondo wouldn't die. And when asked what they are doing in the afterlife after dying, Kodaka said.

"Probably being a wholesome gay couple"

So yeah... Those two ships can probably be moved to Homoerotic Subtext.

Plus the Mondo/Taka steam room scene, IIRC, is full of Double Entendre. So it's probably intentional there yes.

Are we sure about Himiko specifically? To my knowledge, while she clearly cared for Tenko a lot, there wasn't a whole lot to it that made it feel intentionally romantic like Tenko's feelings towards her. I agree about moving Mondo and Taka, though.

Keep in mind Himiko is hesitant to show her emotions and leads the rest of the cast in what appears to be an hour long cry lamenting the fallen students. And after that chapter, Himiko is frequently shown next to Tenko's Ultimate Research Lab and cannot be talked to for Free Time Events during Chapter 4 at least for a while, due to her loss of Tenko. I'd say it's pretty blatant, she even mentions Tenko who snaps her out of her Heroic BSoD when the mastermind corners the survivors.

Edited by Klavice on May 5th 2021 at 9:57:08 AM

I read the page properly, and still think some of it Little Witch Academia (2017) could be placed in Ship Tease — just ships that will never manifest since it's No Hugging No Kissing.

Particularly:

• While Akko and Diana started off antagonistic towards each other, they slowly developed a close and caring friendship with each other over the course of the series, which has resulted in several moments of slight teasing between the two.
  • Of course, there's Episode 10, in which Diana downright confesses her love to Akko under the Cupid Bee's influence, as shown in the image above.
  • After walking towards each other, Akko and Diana are shown to briefly hold hands in the second opening. <- This can read as friendship or ho yay too, of course, but feeds into another bullet below.
  • Official artwork posted on the series' Twitter account following the airing of episode 20 has Diana blushing while Akko is hugging her from behind as they ride the broom back to Luna Nova.
  • In a meta manner, Megumi Han says that if Akko needs romantic development, "she already has Diana and Ursula anyway". Han said this after Yoh Yoshinari remarked that that the current relationship between Akko and Andrew is a "sort of a playful guy-guy relationship" by the end of the series after the initial plan of having them end up together was scrapped by Yoshinari.
  • In the final episode. The two briefly smile at each other, and then hold hands again shortly before destroying the Noir Rod. Chroncles also states that their hearts were in total sync at that moment. Make of that what you will.
• Episode 8 indicates that Sucy might have a crush on Akko since she considers her meeting Akko to be her most treasured memory.
  • At the climax, Akko (almost) resorts to mouth-to-mouth to wake Sucy. Not to mention Dragon-Sucy reacts to this with heart-eyes.
• One promotional artwork for episode 17 by key animator Takafumi Hori, has Amanda and Akko in a bit of an intimate pose.

From the Ship Tease page:

• Little Witch Academia (2017) parodies this trope in an episode with a bee that causes anyone it stings to fall in love with whomever they see immediately afterward. The bee stings two characters (Andrew Hanbridge and Diana Cavendish), causing them to fall for protagonist Akko until the bee's spell is broken. It also stings Andrew's friend Frank, who falls for Akko's friend Lotte, and for added hilarity stings Diana again so that she ends up falling in love with her own reflection. In keeping with the true spirit of the trope, though, both Andrew and Frank have some lingering affection for their respective love target after the spell is broken.

Andrew has more interactions with Akko that could easily read as Ship Tease, and both his and Diana's interactions with Akko read similarly, iirc - but Diana definitely gets more focus with Akko, and they get a world-saving gig with them as the last shot of the series.

I'll admit here I don't ship either, though they both read cute. Just think it'd all make for a nice Ship Tease folder or page.

Also, Chariot and Crux's relationship sometimes act as a dramatic contrast to Diana and Akko's, but iirc they'd read more as "painful breakup" (of any kind).

Thoughts? If no one objects, I don't mind moving them all into a folder or page (not sure which though).

Unrelated questions and thoughts on a separate post:

x Do JD and Turk from Scrubs belong in Homoerotic Subtext? The series was constantly pointing it out between them.

x I remembered a few implied pairings for Nabari no Ou alongside Miharu/Yoite teasing and Raikou/Gau teasing — there was also Kouichi/Raimei teasing and Tobari and... his crush on a lady? I believe. (Unless that was his wife.) I might tackle a Ship Tease page for them later, after all.

[Edit: Deleted unnecessary blather.]

Edited by perona on May 9th 2021 at 8:24:41 AM

• Les Yay: Mara and the other gunslinger woman who travels with El Topo in the first half.

I cut this from YMMV.El Topo given that the woman explicitly seduces the other.

Edited by randomtroper89 on May 9th 2021 at 1:34:29 PM

Good call.