Is this an example?

Ok, I gotta ask: does Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans truly qualify for Too Bleak, Stopped Caring? TBSC is normally defined as either "both sides are either equally unlikeable (pedophiliac serial killer vs genocidal slave trader" or "the heroes' efforts ultimately amount to nothing and the universe still sucks." A story only averts the trope when it features clearly defined heroes and villains and the ending delivers a positive outcome.

TBSC was orignally listed in the show's YMMV page by its original name, "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy", under the following argument: "By far the worst offender in the entire Gundam franchise, which was already fairly dark to begin with. Detractors point out that it's hard to sympathize with the protagonists, especially Mikazuki, as their actions push them further off the slipper slope. This isn't helped in season 2 where you're required to be ruthless in this society to get ahead. In the final episodes, major characters get killed left and right to the point it stops being dramatic and starts becoming tedious. Not helping matters is that people are comparing it to Zeta and the director's insistence that the entire show is basically a mafia story, NOT a war story.". It was deleted because the trope required proof of audience apathy.

The YMMV page previously included:

• Eight Deadly Words: Detractors of the series frequently point this out as a problem. With a bleak setting, extremely morally shady characters (especially the main character), even worse villains, and an underdeveloped Big Bad who not only manages to succeed but ends on a high note, it's pretty easy to stop caring about what happens to the characters., but it was deleted because Eight Deadly Words became a DefinitionOnlyPage.
• Ending Aversion: The outcome of the final episode is extremely divisive, with a pretty vocal segment of the fandom decrying it for feeling that Tekkadan didn't get the payoff they deserved while Rustal, Julietta, Nobliss, and Gjallarhorn in general successfully destroyed Tekkadan and ended on a high note, with only Iok and Nobliss receiving any form of comeuppance that ultimately rings hollow because of the other villains still winning- the way they won also gets accused of being a complete Shoot the Shaggy Dog for the sake of a Gray-and-Grey Morality message. Many who want a sequel for the series tend to request for Rustal and Julieta to get killed and for Gjallarhorn to be destroyed, assuming they don't write a Fix Fic to fulfill the same purpose by having Tekkadan win the Final Battle. The trope was deleted because, supposedly, "the trope is for people avoiding a work because they hear the ending is disappointing, not about people not liking the ending."

It still includes Esoteric Happy Ending with: "While the series portrays the finale as a bittersweet but overall happy ending with Rustal reforming Gjallarhorn and recognizing Martian independence, while Iok and Nobliss Gordon are killed, detractors of the series finale point out that as a member of the previous Gjallarhorn regime, Rustal is at best complicit in or at worst actively responsible for much of the corruption that plagued the organization. Onscreen, he doesn't bat an eye at starting proxy wars, formenting violent rebellions as false flags, and making use of outlawed weapons to achieve his ends. Even with the Seven Stars disbanded, he's managed to hold on to his power by making himself the best possible candidate to be elected to lead Gjallarhorn, and both he and Julietta were willing to side with Nobliss Gordon, of all people. As a result, the detractors see him as carrying on old Gjallarhorn's corrupt practices while propping up a public facade of being a reformer."

The show's anime page includes tropes like:

• The Bad Guy Wins: Although Gjallarhorn is heavily reformed by the end of the series, there is little doubt that throughout the series they are the villains, and were fighting to remain the authority in the world. Tekkaden was simply trying to find a place to belong in the world, which put them in direct opposition to Gjallarhorn by necessity rather than any actual enmity at first. It's made clear that there are still elements of resentment on both sides by the series end though, particularly in light of the look of anger and distrust that Eugene sends Julietta's way. This makes sense when you remember Julietta, a devoted, borderline fanatical follower of Rustal Elion, is the one who murdered Mikazuki on the battlefield. Julietta doesn't miss it, or its implications, either.
• Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism: Very cynical. For starters, the protagonist is a Sociopathic Hero who kills without remorse. The main characters are a group of Child Soldiers who see nothing wrong with their profession, fighting an all-powerful army that oppresses the masses through bureaucracy and military intervention. Both sides kill each other in the most brutal and painful ways, with no hope for peace or reconcilation. The ending implies things will be much better, but by that point, so much blood has been shed.

So, what do you think?

BTW, I also asked this question in Ask The Tropers to get a proper consensus.

Edited by MasterHero on May 10th 2022 at 11:19:42 AM

Killer Rabbit requires the creature to be small and adorable, but also extremely lethal. If the character in question fits both of those, then I would say it is an example.

Edited by laserviking42 on May 10th 2022 at 2:19:53 PM

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me

Too Bleak, Stopped Caring is YMMV, meaning it isn't something that can be "objectively" found in the work, but rather exists as an audience reaction to the work in question. As we all know, audiences and fans can be fickle bastards and sometimes have opinions and reactions that are contrary and even illogical given the facts on screen.

I'm not very familiar with the Gundam franchise, so I would not be able to confirm or deny any of the facts here. The real question is, were audiences actually turned off by the perceived "bleakness" of the work?

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me

So am I good to cut the Never Live It Down entry I brought up here?

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Yea.

Okay removed with a link to this discussion.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Long time ago I was reading some examples from Berserk and I find it uncomfortable with some description and reactions related to Casca's rape in hands of Griffin. Just a trigger warning: some examples contains some details of rape, read it at your own risks: In Nightmare Fuel page:

• For lack of a better word, volume 13 can catch you off-guard: it makes you want to throw up, cry, throw up again, guzzle down five gallons of Brain Bleach, and eat an adorable puppy for good measure just to get over it because you will feel as if you're getting raped yourself. It is truly a nightmare in itself to have to read volume 13. We understand if you don't want to - and we aren't forcing ya.

In character page of Casca:

• Rape as Drama: Seriously, her rape at the hands of Femto right in front of Guts just keeps going and going for almost two episodes...in brutal detail...you will feel like you got raped yourself.

The first example is just word cruft and natter all at once for me and the whole "it makes you feel like you're in *someone's situation*" is just make me feel icky. The second one is just a bit nattery but like the first one, they said the same thing at the end. What do you think about this examples and what should we do about it? And do we allow details like this?

Edited by Bubblepig on May 11th 2022 at 7:40:48 AM

“What is that? It's The Unknown!”

Is this a correct use of averted? On Hotline 024:

• Interface Spoiler: Averted; the character healthbar would give away the twist that you're actually playing as Nikku during "Astral Projection", so it is the only song in the mod where it's absent.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

The thing is, neither of those entries is really detailed. They state that the work has a lot of detail, but don't really describe it.

We don't block tropes just because they are about horrific subjects, but the entry on the character page should probably be a little more neutral. Maybe:

• Rape as Drama: Casca's rape at the hands of Femto right in front of Guts goes on for almost two episodes of brutal detail.

(maybe "gratuitous detail"? It sounds like this sequence is a standout even by the standards of the work)

I'm also not sure that it belongs on the Character page (perhaps on the main work page)? Does it help define her character going forward?

The nightmare fuel entry is an audience reaction, so it is allowed to be more subjective. There is a cleanup thread, which may have more experience in cleaning up phrasing, etc. if necessary. (The pothole to Adult Fear, at least, needs work - it's now a disambiguation page.)

I'll rewrite the Rape as Drama on a character page. My problem isn't rape itself but rather than how the troper want us to feel like that we are in some horrific situation. And should I cut some examples from Nightmare Fuel page for Potholing and Audience Reactions?

Edited by Bubblepig on May 11th 2022 at 11:47:22 AM

“What is that? It's The Unknown!”

Take that part to the NF cleanup thread. They're a lot more experienced at cleaning up without removing actual audience reactions. (We're not supposed to cut AR just because we didn't react that way ourselves.)

Does Lomax, The Hound of Music have any examples of Canine Confusion? Watch the episodes here and found out.

That’s not how this works. Nobody is going to watch something on request just to find out if a trope happens

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Alright, will do. Thank you.

Edited by Bubblepig on May 11th 2022 at 1:12:07 AM

“What is that? It's The Unknown!”

On ArtifactTitle.Real Life

• "America" is most commonly used to refer to the United States, although it originally meant all of the Americas (North and South). Many Latin Americans dislike this usage for obvious reasons.

Is this Artifact Title, or just Non-Indicative Name?

Everywhere on this wiki is this idea that South Americans are angry about using "American" for the USA. But I digress ...

I don't think it's a valid example, because it's not exactly an artifact title, "The Americas" is still the term for the new world, we still use North America and South America, and of course there is Latin America. The name is both in use and indicative (even though the boundaries can be quite fuzzy).

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me

re: Interface Spoiler, i think that's a valid example. the interface goes out of its way to prevent a spoiler in a unique scenario

I've definitely seen people argue about it IRL and online, so we didn't invent it, but the example is definitely misuse and even if it wasn't, that "Latin America is upset" part is irrelevant anyway.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Okay, I gotta ask: is Superman (Brian Michael Bendis) truly an Audience-Alienating Era? The entry reads:

"While not universally hated, Superman (Brian Michael Bendis) is widely disliked by many Superman fans for a variety of reasons, with many seeing it as the biggest example of DC's poor creative direction around the end of The New '10s. The run was already met with immense scepticism before it debuted, owing to forcibly ending the beloved Peter J. Tomasi run on the book, and Bendis' extremely controversial reception, and this only compounded as the run progressed and Bendis' run became infamous for making widely divisive decisions which alienated long-time fans, most infamous among them being his decision to give Jon Kent a Plot-Relevant Age-Up (the backlash to Bendis would infamously mock fans for in both the book itself and on twitter) and have Clark publicly reveal himself as Superman, both of which were derided as spitting in the face of fans. Bendis' run also became known for its weak villains, with a large amount of time spent on Generic Doomsday Villain Rogal Zaar and the overlong, directionless "Leviathan" storyline which eventually petered out into an Aborted Arc despite continual promotion, as well as his well-known quirks such as meandering dialogue and scattershot approach to continuity and established mythology. All in all, despite the substantial push, Bendis' run would end unceremoniously after a little over two years and leaving Phillip Kennedy Johnson to pick up the pieces."

First of, the entry kinda shoots itself in the foot several times by stating that the Bendis era isn't as hated as much as it is divisive.

Secondly, websites and reviewers like Superman Homepage, Comic-Watch, Fortress of Solitude and DC Comics News have positive reviews for the issues directly written by Bendis so there's support for Bendis' comics.

Third, the general consensus for the Bendis era is that "good concepts with bad execution, Superman as a character has a pretty good portrayal but the villains are mediocre", so I sincerely don't know whether the people who hate this run are either a vocal minority or a very sizeable crowd.

Fourth, last time I checked, Audience-Alienating Era applies when

1. the run is a critical and financial disappointment

2. any changes caused by this run are reverted by later stories

3. any time this story is referenced to, it's done in a negative and mocking manner.

So, what do you say?

By the way, I already asked this in Ask The Tropers to get a proper consensus.

That kind of says it all, unless it was universally hated to the point that the universe tries to erase all mention of it, it's not an example.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me

I saw someone put Wham Episode on a movie page for Drive 2011 despite it being a flick. The example was the middle act changes the tone of drive. Is that an example?

No, that's probably a different Wham trope.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Genre Shift or Tone Shift?

If I recall the movie correctly, it's a Tone Shift

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me

Does Cute Is Evil have to involve multiple characters, or can it involve just one? I ask because I have had two Cute Is Evil entries deleted because the troper said it cannot apply to a single character.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.