Total posts: [30,717] 1 ... 204 205 206 207 208 210 211 212 213 214 ... 1229
Think of the mooks!First, sorry I've been so slow in hammering at the Monster.Web Original page. Life is way too busy at the moment, and things I thought would be done are not being done as quickly as I'd like. Such is life. @5179 To be honest, I'm not sure just how much forum RP should be troped here, to be honest. It's a bit more fast and loose than even regular fanfic. But as they say, There Is no Such Thing as Notability. @5183 Unless they point out just how deadly destroying technology would be and he makes a conscious decision to do so anyway, that's just Inferred Holocaust - that's not enough for this trope. Nothing to do with Fridge Logic or Fridge Horror can be considered. Everything has to be explicit, especially as it's quite possible that he didn't think it all through (there's a reason that My God, What Have I Done? is a trope - because people don't always think through the Fridge Horror until it's too late and it comes to pass). @5184 To be fair, this isn't the place to point out the flaws in School Days; the fact that the characters in question don't do anything that would qualify as heinous in the setting, let alone heinous as the general bar for this trope, is enough to DQ them. That said, there's a reason I haven't bothered watching it, despite having access to it for free on Crunchyroll. @5185 To hit on the ones that aren't mere echoing: If you've got possible arguments for the Broken Saints examples, I'm ready to consider them. For Walter Smith, it's been a long while since I read Survival of the Fittest. I'll try to put together a good entry for him in a few days. If I can't, a cut may be in order. I somehow missed Marrissa of Dark Marrissa before. Agreed, expand or cut. Emil Hammond of Whateley Universe is basically an Expy of various anti-mutant officials (most prominently, Robert Kelly) from X-Men - and to be fair, they do get cited for Strawman Has a Point at various times for a reason. He's dancing on the line between Well-Intentioned Extremist and Knight Templar, which has me reticent to keep him. I think Alastor might need more detail to settle whether he's a Generic Doomsday Villain or if he counts. Oh, right, Tragic Monster... was trying to think of that trope to describe Swarm and it escaped me. Thanks for reminding me. @5186 I think the pre-Slendy murders count as Offscreen Villainy, since those all happened before the story begins. I think, due to the strict standards of what we hold to qualify for the course of the story, that he falls short. @5187 It's like a This Very Wiki-specific variant of Murphy's Law - given the opportunity to insert a villain from child-centered media into Complete Monster, someone is guaranteed to do so. As for the issue of females being judged more harsly (in general, really)... I was reading a piece earlier today about how that's true in the world of sports. Clearly, the example here is prime proof of that. I agree with the suggestion. @5190 Eh... evil, but I'm not sure he reaches the levels of depravity I'd expect. I'm inclined to vote no. @5192 and subsequent: I personally would only like potholes to Complete Monster if they're restricted solely to YMMV pages for works, and somewhere on said YMMV pages it gave reasons as to why they qualify. @5195 I am remarkably consistent. Though it did present some issues when I first started, and there's a reason that I can never bluelink my forum name to my troper page. For your example, I would change the first sentence to "Emperor Caligula is presented as this in I, Claudius." Or maybe call him Emperor Gaius Caesar if they don't use his nickname in the series. Beyond that, looks good. @5197 If nobody has offered objections after this long, feel free. @5198, @5200 Sounds like a cut to me, then. Now, to finally finish what was started in @5146 and @5177, Monster.Web Original: Red Dawn +20: Khvostov can stay, but I'd want that consolidated into one bullet point. Bratchenko should be cut; that isn't as heinous as Khvostov. The People's Autonomous Collective is a group; cut. Carl of Llamas with Hats: Previously discussed in @4723; I agreed with the cut proposal in @4725. The Master of Darkness of The Questport Chronicles: Expand or cut; the stub is absurdly vague. The Irate Gamer: Same as Carl. Parody Janeway of Sci Fi Debris: Same as Carl. Red of NES Godzilla Creepypasta: I'm inclined to vote cut, because much of the qualifying material was either Offscreen Villainy or simply sadism towards the main character For the Evulz. If more had been shown, I would have given it a keep. Iron Rose of Cold Blood: Cut the last sentence, but otherwise keep. Sweet Tooth of Holy Musical B@tman: Wait, someone made a Captain Ersatz of The Joker... to fight Batman? Did I miss something here? I'm wracking my brain as to why the author didn't just use The Joker in the first place... I must be missing something. Anyhow, given that I'm imagining The Joker doing the exact same thing, then me using that as an argument as to why The Joker qualifies, he can stay. Alex Kralie of Marble Hornets: I'm going to invoke the "let's wait for it to end" protocol, because there has been so much that's been suggested versus explicitly shown (which makes sense, since it is a horror series), plus questions about whether Alex has any redeeming features at all, that I follow this series and I still couldn't say for certain whether or not he qualifies. He might, depending on just which WMG turns out to be right... but I won't put something in based purely on WMG. So cut for now and come back to it later. Red vs. Blue: Huh. This used to be a comedy... and yet, I don't see Cerebus Syndrome cited anywhere. Anyhow, for Sigma, based on the note under Gamma, I think seeking "metastability" is a Well-Intentioned Extremist act to ensure survival, so I'm inclined to cut. For O'Malley/Omega... given that he's just literally the split-off anger of an AI, I'm inclined to say that he's forced by programming to be that way and vote no. South Dakota is given multiple examples on the page for reasons to cut - care for her brother, a Freudian Excuse... easy cut. Finally, Gamma, who is also a split-off portion of an AI. Plus, the entry notes that he has a Pet the Dog moment. I'm inclined to thus cut the whole lot. Also, Shaoken proposed the same action in @4368.
Wasn't criticizing School Days. Was criticizing Iaculus for suggesting that Makoto is "romantically insensitive" to the point where his murder was "halfway justified, " which is what people were using to prove that "worse than Makoto" somehow equals CM.
@5198: Oh boy, someone finally brought up Umineko, so I guess I gotta do this now. I have very intimate knowledge of this series, but its plot is such a giant mess that I don't know how to perfectly phrase why some characters should or should not be cut to those without prior experience with the series. If something makes no sense, please tell me so I can think of a different way to phrase my argument. First, you've mistaken Beatrice for Eva-Beatrice (entirely different character); Beatrice is not listed here at all, and for good reason. By the way, that Love Redeems thing is actually a fake spoiler from before the final episode was translated, but it's not too far off I guess. Anyway... —- Bernkastel: Only one who qualifies. Her main goal is literally to screw everyone over for her personal amusement, be that through torturing and slaughtering the cast, or through condemning all of them to a Fate Worse than Death. This extends to pretty much everyone, even those who express genuine loyalty to her like Erika, or those who consider her to be a friend, like Lambda. Every single thing Erika does, from everyone she murders and torments to her attempts to rape Battler after having trapped his mind in a hellish dimension, are done at Bernkastel's command. She has a nasty backstory (having her subconcious trapped in a closed dimension for countless eons until she managed to pull off an unspecified feat that is described as borderline impossible), but she loses any kind of sympathy when she tries to put the hero through that very same hellish fate for her personal amusement. Her supposed Pet The Dog-ish relationship with Lambdadelta amounts to nothing more than "I won't kill you as long as you amuse me"; when Lambda turns on her, she expresses absolutely no grief over her betrayal and seems perfectly fine with brutally killing her, describing how she would do so with tons of brutal rape imagery. All in all, a fine chap. Lambdadelta: I don't think he ever qualified in any way, but as the series progresses, she becomes more and more unambiguously heroic; by the end of the series, she's so firmly entrenched as an ally of the protagonists (saving Beatrice in the nick of time as she confronts Erika and helping the heroes stop Bernkastel, willingly giving up her life in the process especially) that I have no idea how anyone could consider her this. Cut. Eva: Listed as a subversion, and she is. Cut. Eva-Beatrice: In essence, her existence is a parallel to Eva's. She exists to make everyone hate her and think Eva was behind the Rokkenjima massacre, thus protecting her niece, Ange, from a harsher, unspecified reality. She's sort of a narration device that scapegoats for someone else when they are committing a murder; essentially, she doesn't do anything to anyone. By the final episode, she reveals herself as an unambiguously kindly figure who assists Ange in making the right decisions, expressing pride and adoration for how Ange has grown. Short version: Subversion, cut. Kyrie and Rudolf: These characters are only featured as being evil in fake scenes that were generated by Bernkastel, which were designed to make Ange, their daughter, suffer. Outside of these scenes, neither Kyrie nor Rudolf are shown committing any kind of atrocity like the ones Bernkastel attributes to them, so it's pretty much just Bern being a dick to Ange rather than these two being evil. Aside from that, I'll discount Rudolf right now; he's shown as feeling guilty about the whole ordeal, and explicitly puts his foot down against killing his son out of familial love. I'd say Kyrie acts like a Complete Monster in the scenes we see, but she's only that way in Bernkastel's warped story. Dunno if she should be cut entirely, or if this fake Kyrie should be isolated and given her own entry, rather than assigning it to Kyrie as a whole. It's such a minor footnote in the story with no bearing on Kyrie's character that I'm poised to just cut everything related to her altogether. Erika: Does tons of cruel things with a smile, from mass murder to attempted rape, but she does genuinely show loyalty to Bernkastel (ultimately dying for her, even after Bernkastel had completely abandoned her) and is capable of showing appreciation for the support of her right-hand woman, Dlanor. I'd say 99% monster, which is a cut. Black Battler: I only played the original release of the fighting game (one that didn't feature this character), but I'll say that this entry screams of the typical problem most Complete Monster candidates from fighting games have. They might have characters who are supposed to be incredibly evil, but we never see them do anything because the plot exclusively occurs through pre/post-battle dialogue, and maybe an ending cutscene. This is that kind of game; were you to play as Black Battler, you'd run into randomly-generated enemies, and he'd say some very nasty, albeit pre-generated statement, but we'd never see him act upon these lines because the game just doesn't work like that. Maybe he has a really nasty ending cutscene, but I don't think that's even translated, so who knows what happens in it. As is, I'm gonna lean towards cut without being too familiar with the context; I just don't think this game can really facilitate a Complete Monster by itself.
edited 29th Nov '12 3:42:39 PM by AquaRegia
I have to say I agree specifically with your last two comments, mostly because the latter one is agreeing with me. Yay! I'll go cut the Red vs. Blue examples since we had already gotten a conceness on that. I would cut Alex Kralie as well but I'm going to be a bit cautious here and wait for some more input on the matter (but even if the work ended now there wouldn't be enough for him to be a Complete Monster; he's being driven insane by the Operator/Slender Man, he kills a man in a fit of insanity, and threatens to kill Jay. Bad actions, but they still fall way short of a Complete Monster).
Are you ready for Freddy?With Malachite, I am aware about the comedic moments with him. However, he then goes back into serious mode in a Mood Whiplash. I still say keep.
Keep calm, and let it go.
Having watched the movie, I would vote keep. He has a few Played for Laughs moments, but so does The Joker. In that continuity he racks up a decent body count, is utterly unrependent, and is needlessly sadistic.
I still say to keep Malachite, given that his actions are still heinous compared to other TGWTG villains, but should he get cut, I'll avoid complaining. Anyways, a few Zelda examples I found at some points. Majora is a-okay (And should be re-added, though with an entry that better details what it does), but the main ones that should be addressed are Ghirahim and Ganondorf.
edited 29th Nov '12 5:33:38 PM by DocSharp
@5201 - I was wondering why your name is redlinked from the forums. Well, that's the price you pay for being such a fan of that song. ;) To address your comments, I've changed the first sentence accordingly in preparation for a post to the "Edit request for locked page" thread; Caligula is quite consistently referred to as such in I, Claudius (even if the real Gaius Caesar grew to hate the name "Caligula"), and certainly John Hurt is credited as "Caligula" in the end credits of the episodes in which he appears, so I've kept that as it was in the draft. I'll hopefully get around to re-watching The Caesars and attempting to watch The Cleopatras over the weekend, so I can draft a proper entry for Caligula in The Caesars and see if anyone is worthy of the title "Complete Monster" in The Cleopatras.
edited 30th Nov '12 5:19:46 PM by mlsmithca
I cut the Adventure Time examples and replaced the Lich’s entry. @5201: As for Web Original entries:
edited 29th Nov '12 7:25:15 PM by OccasionalExister
Pronounced YAK-you-lussWasn't criticizing School Days. Was criticizing Iaculus for suggesting that Makoto is "romantically insensitive" to the point where his murder was "halfway justified, " which is what people were using to prove that "worse than Makoto" somehow equals CM. It's worth noting that this is not real life, but fiction, and so Makoto's insensitivity is exaggerated beyond what is humanly possible until he ends up as a sort of remorseless, life-ruining wrecking ball trundling gently through the school. Ordinary human romantic insensitivity is, of course, not grounds for murder, but in this case, it's more like getting rid of an Obliviously Evil walking disaster area before he condemns anyone else to insanity, permanent exile from society, or death. Yeah, School Days is that sort of show.
edited 30th Nov '12 4:27:01 AM by Iaculus
Freedom of speech includes the freedom for other people to call you out on your bullshit.
@5187: About the American Horror Story examples: You're right about Constance. She may be failing the 'heinous' criteria compared to Tate. But even without that, she's clearly sad when her daughter dies, so she fails the '100% monster' criteria too. Also from the same page:
I have a major problem with a Fan Works entry—the Prophecies Of The Morphing Grid entries to be exact:
edited 30th Nov '12 8:32:54 AM by xie323
love lockdown, you lose.In terms of the fan-work, I agree with your assessments. The first entry definitely has to be rewritten.
Think of the mooks!@5205 Mood Whiplash alone is not reason enough to consider keeping. To be honest, I still don't feel like it was sufficiently shown that Malachite was sufficiently heinous. Too much of it seems dependant on assumptions about what he knew about the consequences of his actions. @5207 For Ghirahim, it sounds like the attribution of heinous deeds is a bit questionable, considering that we don't have a discussion of what those deeds are. As is, I'd be inclined to cut. As for Ganondorf... wait, when did he become a Well-Intentioned Extremist? I must have missed that. That said, I question whether he's heinous enough regardless. Yes, kidnapping, out for ultimate power, all of that. But he doesn't even strike me as genocidal. He's interested in becoming a tyrant, but I don't think he's even interested in becoming as heinous as would be required. @5208 Well, more of a fan of a consistent web identity, really. @5209 No, because we're not treated to a flashback or the like showing what actually happened. Show, Don't Tell is strongly in force here. Even with that, I still think the deeds fall just short. Red of NES Godzilla Creepypasta qualifies as The Sociopath, assuredly, but I don't think there's enough to put him here. @5211 I agree - let's cut Constance and Sister Jude since we already know they don't qualify; we'll hold off on the rest. @5212 Whoa. You found a heck of a bad entry there. I agree with the proposals - given the depth and breadth of the actions, I think only a rewritten Dark Specter entry should stay. It especially should have the Nazi part rewritten (it's pure WMG - the entry could also be interpreted as the story explaining how the Nazis were able to do the acts that they did in our universe, which has its own Unfortunate Implications). This also reminds me, I'd have to pluck examples from Monster.Web Original - some fanfic is on there instead of Monster.Fan Works.
The WandererIn WW it turns out that Ganondorf's original reason for trying to take over Hyrule was because he was jealous that the Hylians had so much while the Gerudo had basically nothing.
Isn't that very much a different....continuity, though? Ganondorf might have started that way, but in Ocarina of Time, any good intentions are long gone. He'd condemn Gerudo in a heartbeat for more power
The WandererWW!Ganondorf is the same as OoT!Ganondorf, so I'd say it still counts.
Is it real or a convenient excuse? In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf would quite clearly annihilate every gerudo with his bare hands if it meant personal power
A Wizard boyDidn't we say that Ganon fails the heinous standard for The Legend of Zelda? Then, why would it matter if he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist?
edited 30th Nov '12 3:46:42 PM by SeptimusHeap
Ganondorf, like Link is reincarnated across time. What that says about his different incarnations I'm not sure. One could argue that each incarnaton should be judged differently. One could just as easily argue that if there's a speck of good in one incarnation, then none of them count. Honestly not sure which way I'd vote on that.
Actually, if I recall correctly the Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker Ganondorfs are literally the same guy, not different incarnations.
The WandererGanondorf is the same Ganondorf in every Zelda game.
Wind Waker's Ganondorf is the same as Ocarina of Time's Ganondorf, but yeah, I don't think he's a good example either way. I don't think heinousness is that much of an issue; there is a psuedo-genocidal bent to what he does to the Zoras (who are all frozen) and the Gorons (who are all being fed to a monster as an example). I'd say he does revel in being as evil as possible through actions like these. My main problem is that we never see him do any of this; we see the results, but we never see Ganondorf personally step out from his castle and subjugate or destroy any of the villages and cultures that inhabit the world. He just lords from up high and never acts until the very end of the game, which is just a kidnapping. Too much off-screen influence for him to be a good Complete Monster. I'll throw this in regarding the Well-Intentioned Extremist thing, even if I've stated my case on why I don't think he's this: Ganondorf speaks of his motives in retrospect during Wind Waker, yet it's clear that when he rose to power, he stopped giving a damn about the Gerudo. They're still locked in their craphole of a region, and it's implied that he's brainwashing them to some extent. Then we arrive at the point where he's stating his motives, but he's talking recursively and proceeds to act in a way that doesn't befit said motive. At the end of the day, I have no idea what he's trying to do and if Well-Intentioned Extremist is applicable to him in the long run; he clearly goes through Motive Decay after he rises to power, and then he becomes more introspective about it in Wind Waker, but doesn't really seem to give a damn when you judge him by his actions.
edited 30th Nov '12 5:25:06 PM by AquaRegia
Azor AhaiI think I'll start deleting some of the bad examples I've brought up and others have commented were indeed bad (thinking of Breaking Bad, American Horror Story, and Breakfast Club ones).
I've got no problem with you axing those.
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