During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Everyone okay with X Files Monsters?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I've submitted the rewrites from the most recent batch I presented.
Here are new write-ups for the two keeps from Prison Break.
- Prison Break:
- Wyatt Mathewson is a professional hitman working for the Company under its leader General Jonathan Krantz. He's the worst and most chilling Psycho for Hire the Company has to offer, with nearly every scene involving him killing someone or torturing people to death while talking to them in a calm, soothing tone. He kills James Whistler and captures Gretchen Morgan, both Company agents who were working against Krantz. He was going to kill Gretchen, but at Krantz's behest Wyatt instead locks her up in a small room and tortures Gretchen for days until she escapes. He's given clearance to kill Mahone, Michael, Lincoln and everyone else who was connected to James Whistler. He takes Mahone's ex-wife Pam and his son Cameron hostage, murdering Cameron and blowing the child's head off post-mortem to mutilate the corpse just to spite Mahone further. He takes a female correction officer's girlfriend hostage and threatens to kill them both if she doesn't give him the information he wants. He takes Bruce Bennet (a friend of Sara Tancredi) hostage to torture him for information and kills him after getting the info he wants on Sara. He tries to murder Mahone during a court hearing. When he's given intel on Scofield and his crew by the Sixth Ranger Traitor Roland, he promises to give Roland $1 million and to let him go in exchange for the others. Once there, Wyatt progressively shoots Roland in the knee cap, then his thigh, and then in his stomach to watch him bleed out.
- Christina Rose Scofield is a high-ranking leader of the Company and along with General Krantz is revealed to have been behind most of the events in the show. She's a sociopathic Insufferable Genius who only cares about her own advancement. She sacrifices her whole family; she abandoned both her sons Lincoln and Michael while they were kids without saying a word, rejected her husband after he turned on the Company and had him hunted down, and arranged for her adopted son Lincoln (whom she despised for his relative lack of intelligence) to be framed and executed for a staged political assassination of Terence Steadman. She tries to kill General Krantz to steal a device called "Scylla" and sell it for its profitable military use, then kills her conspirator when he botches the hit. She pretends to sell the technology to a renowned Indian scientist/politician, but instead has him assassinated in public and frames Lincoln again, along with Michael, Mahone and Don Self. Christina intends to unleash a decades-long war between India and China so she can sell the tech to both sides for a quick profit, knowing that it would quickly escalate into a global conflict. When Michael steals Scylla back from her, she kidnaps Lincoln and gives Michael an ultimatum for its return by shooting Lincoln in the lung to watch him die slowly. She later tries to kill Michael when he's ruined her plans one too many times.
Any other thoughts on Skynet? We seemed to be leaning towards keep due to the A.I. operating on human-type morality.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Done.
edited 13th Jul '14 3:09:15 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
A few minor edits:
- Wyatt: Wyatt Mathewson...; also, we could probably use $1 million.
- For Christina: Christina Rose Scofield; try It's All About Me instead of lack of empathy; try profitable applications in military weaponry.
With regards to Koba from Dawn Of The Planet Of The Apes, it should be noted that he does get one small moment which could possibly be construed as Pet the Dog: When Caesar confronts him at the top of the tower during the climax, Koba is initially holding an assault rifle. He has the potential to instantly kill the unarmed Caesar right then and there. However, Koba throws it away when the battle actually begins, preferring Good Ol Fisticuffs. This would suggest that he may prefer to fight fairly rather than to use underhanded tactics. He does eventually pick up an iron bar to use, however (although it's certainly not as deadly as an assault rifle), and after the tower explodes he does retrieve his assault rifle and fires indiscriminately, but this initial act of setting down his weapon could still be seen as a Pet the Dog moment.
Thoughts?
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The apes believe in being led by their strongest. I'd say he's not showing respect for Caesar as much as he is engaging in a dominance display to cement his leadership. Gunning down the old boss might not get him the result he's looking for.
edited 13th Jul '14 9:18:02 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Without having seen the movie, it seems like it could also be construed as arrogance and wanting to make Caesar suffer instead of a quick kill.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Or that.
edited 13th Jul '14 9:17:59 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Given that his opponent is badly injured going into the fight, every ape is watching them, and the subject had shown no hesitation in using that gun clandestinely, and has no issue using it when the fight doesn't go his way...,not pet the dog at all
there's also the fact Caesar showing up alive is kind of shocking to the apes who view him as the messiah. Koba flat out murdering him would be counterproductive to keeping control. As I said above, Koba can see Caesar is badly injured and believes he can win the old fashioned way
edited 13th Jul '14 10:11:52 AM by Lightysnake
So I was looking at the remaining entries on the TV sandbox, and thought I'd bring up this one:
- Homicide: Life on the Street: Due to its morally ambiguous nature and realistic tendencies, Homicide didn't have many of these, preferring to keep their villains as pathetic figures. However, a few do stand out. The most prominent is Luther Mahoney, a Drug kingpin who has complete control over the Heroin deals in Baltimore. He escapes justice repeatedly and just loves rubbing his wealth and Karma Houdini status in the face of the Detectives. He's also very smart, making himself a pillar of his community that no one wants to think anything bad about. His crimes include murdering rival dealers and anyone who stands in his way, intimidating witnesses, and ordering murders. It's mentioned at one point that he is responsible for dozens of murders.
This guy sounds like a potential example but needs work. However, the troper who originally added this is currently suspended. What should we do with the example as is?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Anyone here familiar with the show? BTW, there are also a few other remaining examples that need work.
- Dick Reed, the Serial Killer/rapist in "Re-Do", is a thoroughly misogynist Smug Snake ("She lies. They all lie," regarding the victim who escaped and got him caught) who gets his conviction overturned because a lab tech screwed up the protocols. He shows zero remorse and no redeemable qualities and finally attempts to perform his usual MO on Erin Reagan, the ADA who convicted him. This backfires fatally. Toby Leonard Moore's performance is so good that it's also the show's first major dose of Nightmare Fuel.
- Yuri Denko, an arms dealer whom Erin prosecutes in "Working Girls", is a cold-blooded sadist who has no problem executing a man's wife in front of him in their living room over a business dispute. He then threatens the man's children in a courtroom outburst to scare him into not testifying, and then has him killed after the threats scare him into running. He puts out a hit on the surviving witness, hounding her mercilessly, and he went after her grandma back in Russia, too (the FSB got there first and protected her).
- City Homicide:
- Dr Sean Macready, a psychiatrist who kills over a dozen children by starting fires, each time making them look like electrical accidents. His motive each time is to punish his adulterous female patients, five of which later killed themselves, something he probably caused through his sessions with them. The one point of sympathy he gets is that his own children were killed in a fire when his wife was away with her own lover, but then it's implied that he started that fire as well. He dies at the end of the episode when he unsuccessfully attempts to pull one of his victims into the fire, after the other two had escaped.
- Brett Semple, the teenage illegitimate son of an armed robber who gets involved with his father's gang after he goes missing, and then proves himself far worse. He kills a bank teller in cold blood during a heist, and later shoots at the police when they come for him, with his own mother in the room. The ironic part is that Brett's father kept out of his life specifically to avoid tainting him and bringing him down that path.
- Frances Deerborne, who murders her husband's rich family, down to his younger siblings and the housekeeper, to ensure that he receives his inheritance. It is suggested that she intends to kill him later and Make It Look Like an Accident.
- Daniel Worthington, a misogynistic Serial Rapist who specifically targets strong women who he can't dominate in any other way. Worse, he drugs his wife and daughter during a movie night so that he can leave to commit his rapes, while ensuring that they'll provide an alibi for him. The only reason he fails to get away with it is because Claudia baits him during her interrogation of him, and he forgoes his overseas trip to target her.
- The Closer:
- Philip Stroh is a truly Amoral Attorney who defends sex offenders, but who also happens to be a Serial Rapist who used one of his clients as a stalking horse. He is one of the few criminals that Major Crimes hasn't nailed, managing to beat Brenda at her own game. For Brenda, he's That One Case.
- Roger Stimple, a child molester who loves to rape and kill prepubescent black girls. You feel NO sympathy when Sgt. Gabriel beats the everlasting shit out of him.
- The manager of the Summerview rest home, Mr. Wayley, had been killing old people without loved ones just so he can get a bonus. He not only expressed nothing but contempt for his victims (his "Who cares" speech), he even has the gall to try to bribe the police to drop the charges and let the witness investigating him stay at Summerview free of charge.
- Desperate Housewives generally has Sympathetic Murderers and Anti Villains, but not always:
- By the end of season 3, Gloria Hodge, has really come across as this. Here's a woman so insanely determined that her son will marry Alma, a woman he doesn't love, that she's completely willing to kill any other woman who gets close to him. She’s also quite ready to frame other, innocent people for the crimes and emotionally blackmail her vulnerable son into becoming an accomplice in the murder of a woman he loved. She continues her mad efforts to force her son back into this miserable marriage for so long, even after Alma herself has told him to give it up, that you have to wonder just who she's trying to please. This is all before you find out that she infiltrated Bree's house and gained her trust solely for the sake of polishing her off too. That's before you find out that, when Orson was a teenager, she murdered her husband, set it up to look like a suicide, and allowed the young Orson to blame himself for this.
- Patrick Logan from season 6, an environmental terrorist who probably has devolved into Terrorist Without A Cause and is bent on destroying Angie and Nick's lives. He kills in cold blood the neighbor who tells him where Angie is hiding, and later threatens Angie into making a bomb that he plans to blow up into her house to kill her son Danny.
- Homicide: Life on the Street: Due to its morally ambiguous nature and realistic tendencies, Homicide didn't have many of these, preferring to keep their villains as pathetic figures. However, a few do stand out. The most prominent is Luther Mahoney, a Drug kingpin who has complete control over the Heroin deals in Baltimore. He escapes justice repeatedly and just loves rubbing his wealth and Karma Houdini status in the face of the Detectives. He's also very smart, making himself a pillar of his community that no one wants to think anything bad about. His crimes include murdering rival dealers and anyone who stands in his way, intimidating witnesses, and ordering murders. It's mentioned at one point that he is responsible for dozens of murders.
- Nikita: Percy, the head of Division, at first seemed like an Affably Evil character who was Only in It for the Money, working for Corrupt Corporate Executives and criminal organizations just as easily as for the government. However, as the series progressed, we've seen just how far he'll sink to achieve his goals, including murdering the loved ones of his own agents to keep them loyal. Perhaps the most shocking example of this was the revelation that the terrorist who killed Michael's family was, in fact, a Division agent who did so on Percy's orders so that Kazim Tariq could be Percy's mole in al-Qa'ida. When Kazim accidentally killed Michael's family instead, Percy recruited Michael with the promise of getting even.
Also, the quote at Tabletop Games needs to be replaced (Ebon Dragon was cut). I like this one from Fabius Bile:
Or Abaddon:
edited 13th Jul '14 12:25:01 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
For Desperate Housewives, I vote to cut Patrick Logan. I looked through recaps of his episodes on Television Without Pity, and while he's a horrible person, he does seem to care about the environment.
Definitely the Bile quote, its much better then the old one. Which is this: "I don't use music to write the Ebon Dragon. I use evil."
edited 13th Jul '14 12:31:45 PM by randomtroper89
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
What about Hodge? ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
That old quote wouldn't've been TOO bad, if not for the fact that we cut Ebon for lack of moral agency.
So it'd be thus (more or less; formatting's acting up):
->"If a man dedicates his life to good deeds and the welfare of others, he will die unthanked and unremembered. If he exercises his genius bringing misery and death to billions, his name will echo down through the millennia for a hundred lifetimes. Infamy is always more preferable to ignominy."
—>— Fabius Bile at the Desecration of Kanzuz IX , Codex: Chaos Space Marines (4th Edition)
edited 14th Jul '14 12:38:42 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Don't know about Hodge yet.
Doesn't even like this username
Bile quote is great.
But again, I still favour The Clairvoyant. What's the issue—that he doesn't meet the heinous standard? I would recommend reading these articles, and seeing what you think:
http://marvel.wikia.com/John_Garrett_(Earth-199999)
http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/John_Garrett
http://wiki.shieldtv.net/index.php?title=John_Garrett
http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Centipede_Project
http://wiki.shieldtv.net/index.php?title=Centipede
http://marvel.wikia.com/Project_Centipede_(Earth-199999)
edited 13th Jul '14 2:03:36 PM by speyeker
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So 2 (plus myself) for the Bile quote...
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Having just seen Apes... on Koba. He doesn't come off as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but a Fantastic Racist who is bent on killing humanity off. Even his Freudian Excuse is weak, most of the Ape Colony are survivors from testing too but don't turn out like Koba and not only that, I think some of the scars he received were from other apes. His murder of Ash shows he doesn't value Ape life as well.
Came back from Apes, and Koba wins my vote. All and any redeeming qualities he has are snuffed out the instant he betrays Caeser. If he gets enough votes, I'll be happy to make a writeup for him.
I think he's gotten a unanimous at this point.
I'm in favor of Garrett, but Weblinks Are Not Examples. You should summarize the info there for us.
A for Bile's quote.
I've also got a writeup on Koba. It might be too early to fully tell, and apologies for being rather hasty on this, but there's been a decent number of upvotes and not a single downvote. If there's any flaws in it, I'll tweak it or have someone else do it.
Major spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie yet.
- Dawn of the Planet of the Apes: Koba is a xenophobic ape of the highest order. Initially loyal to Caesar, Koba is disgusted with the fact that Caesar would bring humans into their territory. After being told off by Caesar for the last time, Koba decides to betray his leader and take matters into his own hands. Displaying his callousness by murdering two helpless guards, Koba raids the armory of the human city, returning to shoot Caesar and burn down his former home. Pinning the blame on the humans, Koba rallies the misguided apes into attacking San Francisco, slaughtering dozens of innocents. He doesn't tolerate being compared to Caesar: he demonstrates this by cruelly tossing the young Ash to his death when he refuses to kill defenseless people in Caesar's name. Upon taking over the city, Koba imposes his rule on both humans and apes alike, trapping the humans in cages, imprisoning the apes still loyal to Caesar in chains, and turning the rest into fanatically loyal soldiers who are still under the impression Caesar is dead. When finally confronted by Caesar, Koba tries to savagely beat him to death with a metal bar, proclaiming that he is the stronger ape. When defeated, Koba snaps and starts gunning down his former comrades, even as Caesar is trying to help them. Even though Koba had an excuse in the form of science-related torture, Koba was far from the only ape to have been tortured, and yet none of the others turned out evil. Caesar ultimately decides it's perfectly reasonable to drop the traitorous bonobo to his death, stating that he is "no ape." Selfish and brutal, Koba perfectly represented the savagery found in both humans and apes alike.
edited 23rd Jul '14 2:36:16 PM by Scraggle
"In distress", my ass.
I'm still not that certain about Garret counting as a CM, but won't contest it.
Bile quote works for me, as well, on the TG/CM page.
Regarding Dawn, from what's been said of him Koba sounds like he counts (no real interest in watching the movie), but I thought CM discussion policy was to wait a little bit after release before making CM entries for a work.
All your safe space are belong to Trump
Isn't the protagonist's name Caesar?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
5 for the quote. Think I'll request it soon 
As for Renkotsu, he seems genuinely saddened by Ginkotsu's death, and his betrayal of the Band is motivated by a paranoid notion that Bankotsu is out to kill him and take his jewel shards. He's acting in fear for his own life, and while he's wrong, that doesn't make him a CM.
The whole point of the Band of 7 was to demonstrate camaraderie among killers, in the form of a group that was an explicit contrast to Naraku and others like him. Putting any of them up would defeat the whole point.