The Ask A Slash Writer Thread - On Writing Better M/M Fic

Nah, this isn't a Reddit-style Ask Me Anything.

This is a thread for new and existing slash writers (of all sexualities and genders) to get input on their stories, to ask questions of other writers opinions, and to hopefully write better work, that helps elevate slash and gay fiction in general from "horrible thing that is a red flag of bad writing and horrible characterization" to "just as good and intelligent as het."

What is welcome here:

• Questions about writing slash - anything from how to write two men in a relationship (with some given details about the men in question) to how homosexuality was/is perceived in the setting of your work (if anyone here knows about that!) to whether that item you think should be included should be or should not be, to... whatever.
• Requests for beta readers/posting short snippets of a story that are under an R rating for review
• Occasionally snarking on awful Slash Fic or Yaoi Genre works for the purpose of explaining why you don't want to do what that fic/story did.
• Providing relevant technical information, writing advice, education, details, and anything else to improve the general quality and readability and intelligence in Slash Fic/yaoi/bara/original gay fiction.

What is NOT welcome here:

• Homophobia and transphobia in general. Post that shit in here, get hollered.
• Arguments over whether slash is okay or bad or good or whatever (Including Real-Person Fic arguments). If you want to argue that go elsewhere (and don't import or export drama to this thread). This thread is NOT for "your thoughts on yaoi" unless you're interested in writing some. Please keep that in mind.
• Anti-slash/anti-yaoi postings in general. This thread is FOR slash writers. If you want to "educate us" as a het or gen only writer, please keep in mind most of us have already heard why het and gen are better. And we're here to try to fix those internal problems, not to abandon writing what we like (and in some cases what we know) for stuff that doesn't appeal to us personally.
• Outright bashing of even bad writers and bad stories - the point in any snark should be using small samples of badly written fic to explain how to do it right, not to import drama or spread hatred.
• Het Is Ew: That makes us look like stupid fangirls or the like. If it's your opinion, that's fine, just keep it out of the thread because it's not all our opinion. The only place Het Is Ew type opinions are allowed is in regard to deconstructing the application of traditional heterosexual Romance Tropes to a specific relationship where they don't apply.
• Drama in general: Just no. We're here to grow and learn as writers - not start drama.
• NC-17 material - it's fine if you're writing it, don't post it on here though, so we don't run afoul of the rules. Bowdlerize a bit if you want us to review an NC-17 passage - replace the sex act with some mundane, boring, totally inane activity. Points for creativity.
• Seeking relationships/roleplaying: Take it elsewhere.
• Minors: Please, no. Don't participate in this thread with your age openly listed in your profile as underage. While I and others will do our best to make sure sex stays bowdlerized to doing stuff like putting together puzzles and doing the dishes, and any actual sex ed stuff will be no worse than what you might run into in a Sex Ed college course or workshop or see in an anatomy/human sexuality text (and only in reply to actual questions not covered by the introductory links), open participation of under 18s is still not cool in this thread.

INTRODUCTORY LINKS:

• Attraction Tropes
• Bisexuality Tropes
• Boys Love Tropes
• Dating Tropes
• Love Tropes
• Queer as Tropes
• Marriage Tropes
• Wedding and Engagement Tropes
• Gender Dynamics Index
• Flirting and Courtship
• Family Tropes
• The Ex Index
• Romance Novel Tropes
• Sexual Harassment and Rape Tropes (as much as I hate the topic of rape and think these are overused in the genre, they exist there, so I can't just not include them - but if you use them PLEASE do the research!)
• Yaoi Genre
• Bara Genre
• Slash Fic
• Real-Person Fic
• Anatomically Impossible Sex (Got this going on? Probably time for a rewrite, unless you have a very good reason for it In-Universe)
• Write a Good Yaoi
• Write a Sex Scene

- - - -

edited 26th Sep '14 4:57:37 AM by RevolutionStone

I volunteer me as an existing slash-writer for advice.

This is a fantastic idea. I'm a little bit pissed that I didn't come up with it myself.

edited 26th Sep '14 10:08:29 AM by Sharysa

This is pretty much the perfect thread for me. I never write sex scenes, but I have written many slashfics already and I still haven't quite nailed it.

Thanks for the good replies! I'm really hoping we can make this thread very helpful and useful. (And I'd post more, but I can't really think of anything right now - though I'm thinking of a post for later on how to avoid the crying uke stereotype/Wimpification and/or write it well if you do choose to write it, if we don't get any asks in here before that :) )

Oh yes, Wimpification}... i hate that with a burning passion, even though I've actually written that in in my early fanfic writing days. *shudder*

I'll be watching this thread for reasons.

Oh, I know! (to Ichigo) And it's actually one of the easiest mistakes to make, because it's a shortcut for angst, especially if you're writing Hurt Comfort or Dark Fic.

So, here's my angle on avoiding it to some extent (and/or, making it a Justified Trope if using it is actually not screamingly Out of Character because Tropes Are Not Bad).

The very first thing is to consider the character, especially in fanfic or RPF where you already have an established character, or in an original piece where the character is established. Would he act in such a way? Think of how he's handled traumatic or disturbing occurrences in the past, as that usually provides a fairly good guide to how he believably would in the future. Think of how he's reacted to discovering he has feelings for other people and/or acting on it - that informs future conduct as well. This isn't a solid rule (people do act in ways they haven't before in Real Life and in fiction both) but it provides some sort of guide to at least get that if you are having The Stoic break down in tears, for example, that THIS IS IMPORTANT. That it's something you need to get into the why of and provide some context for, to make it O.O.C. Is Serious Business and a serious punch of angst rather than "okay, WHY is he acting like this?"

The second thing to keep in mind is that angst, mental instability, and simply choosing to be radically different is not exclusive to bottoms or submissive men. That carries horrible sexist implications of suggesting those things are uniquely feminine/teenage feminine attributes (and therefore giving credit to the Hysterical Woman trope and all the other bullshit that all women are weak and overemotional and more prone to angst, attention-seeking, drama, and outright mental illness OR suggesting Men Are Generic, Women Are Special with "only the 'woman' can be pretty" or the like.). There's plenty of Straight Gay and Armored Closet Gay bottoms/submissives in Real Life, and there's even a corresponding trope of powerful men seeking to take time off from being in control. In short - don't pile all the angst and nontraditional responses and the like onto a character solely because of what he likes to do in bed.

(There's also the concept of the "power bottom," a person taking a receptive role in sex/sexual activity who is absolutely, 100 percent not a submissive or masochist or similar. Again what one does in bed/likes in bed =/= what applies universally to that person.)

Next, you need to keep in mind that culturally in most Western cultures and Japanese culture both (and to a very slight degree biologically due to the lack of pronounced hormonal cycling in men from around 20 to mid-50s) the way men express angst and sorrow is different. It's not healthy at all, but it's Truth in Television that men often tend to express sorrow and angst in far more destructive ways than crying or talking about it. This is beginning to change with the increasing knowledge of society, and some men don't respond in "traditional" ways - but it's something to keep in mind.

If you've chosen to write a character who doesn't respond in those ways, that's AWESOME! That said, you have to still show why he doesn't. Is he from a different culture or an Aspie and therefore just never really cared about it? Is he genderqueer/bigender? Is he healthy and in touch with his emotions, or alternately, is he suffering from something like PTSD or Bipolar Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder AND choosing to confront his disorder rather than run from it/live in denial? Is it none of the above? Either way, you need to get into that. You also need to research, obviously, how what you've chosen to explain his different approach actually expresses in people.

(on a sliding scale, it's actually best to consider "traditional masculinity for culture" and "totally, radically different" much like one would the Kinsey Scale - where there are relatively few "absolutes" for either side and a whole lot of people hanging around the "one tick from the absolutes" on both sides and then relatively few people at the absolute middle with a "perfect 50/50")

So let's say... instead, though, your character is closer to the "traditionally masculine responses for Western or Japanese culture" end, either in canon/Real Life for Fan Fic where we're discussing here, or as you've already written him in an original work. As in, as a hypothetical example, his response to a tragic event or bad feelings or an episode of one of the mental disorders mentioned above isn't "go cry on his lover," it's "get horrifically drunk and start a Bar Brawl."

If you want to just entirely avoid the issue and leave him at his current place in character, then, when something bad happens, his response will be some variant of Drowning My Sorrows or other escapism, possibly combined with anger/rage/violently lashing out, either at what upset him, or at whatever crosses his path. You want to write his emotions and sorrows into this, but you also want it clear, at least at this point, that how he deals with them is this behavior.

If you want to develop the character into being healthier/more in touch with his feelings, you'd likely still do the same at least to start, and maybe include something to give him some regrets about having done that afterward or at least make him think about it. Of course, the first time he thinks about it, he's STILL not likely going to break down in tears on his lover, or even seek help and therapy and learn healthier responses. He's probably going to be closer to "oh shit, I could have killed someone/gotten killed last night and this hangover sucks" and maybe decide to not get in another fight for a while/not drink again, if only to very soon break that the next time the opportunity appears.

You'd slowly begin to write him having more direct/healthier (or alternately, more into the downward spiral) responses - slowly coming to terms with his problems and his emotions and himself, throughout the course of the story, making the story about this as your B-plot to the romance, as what it feels like, to him, to actually confront his emotions (or alternately, to become more ill or to force himself to run away from them more, taking up more and more unhealthy and dangerous behaviors with at least some reasoning as to why)

Also, while this is really reduced (it's not a Psych 101 course even) there's general groupings of unhealthy or ill behaviors. One does not have to have ALL of the behaviors in said grouping, much less all of the groupings entirely - one problem with wimpification is many writers believe that every single one of these behaviors must be dumped on the Poor Uke, with no explanation as to why. A better way to think of it is "any time a new one of the following is adapted, the character's path toward it must be shown and explained within the context of the work."

• Denial: Some example behaviors Being The Stoic. Refusing to believe something bad happened or is happening. Pretending strength for everyone. Refusing to believe one even has a problem or a specific problem or illness. Ignoring one's physical or mental condition or that of others. Believing that one can make something go away or be fixed solely by ignoring it/throwing money at it.

• Escapism: Some example behaviors Using alcohol and/or drugs or other substances or food irresponsibly to soothe one's feelings/in combination with denial above. Being The Workaholic, a Hikikomori, a hermit, extremely shy and reserved, or something else isolated from people in all ways/in intimate ways. Losing oneself in porn, sports, collecting, gaming, or some other thing of interest. Joining a religion or seminar or other spiritual movement not out of specific interest in it but out of wanting to feel better (anything from a legitimate belief system to an outright Scam Religion).

• Violence - self-explanatory, but it can be anything from starting a war or planning a massacre to a Bar Brawl or Domestic Abuse or even just Self-Harm that is well-hidden.

The one thing these behaviors have in common as well as being unhealthy is... pretty much nothing (well, aside from violence resulting from substance use in some instances)! Even in their own groupings, if you're going to have, say, an alcoholic suddenly start shooting heroin? You need to explain why he went from an easily acquired, legal, and somewhat socially acceptable substance to one and a method of use for it that is somewhat difficult to acquire, illegal in most places, and leads to quite a lot of social scorn. If you're going to have someone go from one category to another, even more so - you have to SHOW why The Stoic suddenly is lashing out in horrific violence.

In short - the way to make angst and tragedy AND characters becoming Out of Character not a bad thing and not resulting in wimpification even if you choose to include behaviors stereotypically included with it such as Self-Harm or open breakdowns or the like, is to know what you are writing, remember to show your work, and see issues and responses as very important things, not just something you can data dump on a character to go "yeah, he's definitely the one who's going to be on the bottom."

(This part of the rant dealt more with Downer Ending and tragedy and Dark Fic and angst, with the cases of "weepy uke" that tend to rely on that. I may or may not make a followup post about avoiding wimpification in the reverse, e.g. where Love Redeems suddenly turns someone into a wibbling, helpless uke as he's allegedly getting healthier and better.)

edited 26th Sep '14 11:42:55 PM by RevolutionStone

You've brought up some really good points there, and your post was very helpful – thank you! :)

The only question I have regarding this topic is, in relation to a oneshot I've written recently, how would a sentient puppet made out of wood and internal organs, who is The Stoic because he can't feel emotion, react to the death to the guy I'm pairing with (Hot-Blooded, violent Mad Bomber)? The oneshot in question was actually loosely based on a song I heard (but with no lyrics included), and it involves the puppet neglecting his needs and breaking down, until he actually dies. Problem is, I've included a scene where he goes to heaven and reunites with the Mad Bomber, and I've given him an overdose of emotion such as happily crying and hugging the other guy. It is Out of Character of him, I know that much, but am I doing it right? Is there something unnatural about a literally emotionless character suddenly crying his eyes out in joy? If so, how can I fix this or keep in mind for next time?

Here is the oneshot in question if you'd like to analyse it.

Actually, I think that's actually very well done. In the sense that the reason for his sudden outburst and change of character is totally explained and it's present in the context of the story. Tropes Are Not Bad, and even Out of Character can definitely work - the way you have it shows the development of the character and the extremity of the situation - which validate the actions of the character as Out of Character yes, but so for a very, very legitimate reason. :)

Edit - though as a totally non-slash related thing, I'd say cut the "owari" at the end. I could be totally wrong, but it comes off as Gratuitous Japanese.

edited 27th Sep '14 1:00:48 AM by RevolutionStone

Ah, thank you! I was really nervous that I'd stuffed it all up. :)

About the 'owari', yes, it is Japanese for 'the end' and I thought I'd put it there because it'd suit the formatting I have for the fic... but I guess I should change it or discard it since Gratuitous Japanese is a red flag for many people here.

You'd probably kill yourself reading my earlier stories though, I'd ended up using tons of pseudo-Japanese in those.

Revolution Stone: That was fantastic and I love you.

For me specifically, I HATE gratuitous self-harm or depression/angst. The first overlaps a LOT with my issues with the latter, so whenever I come across the self-destructive kind of Woobification in fandom, I treat it very cautiously.

On the other hand, when it's done well? It's done REALLY well, often from authors who have actually been through it and know the physical/mental processes that go through a damaged person's head. But often, I get this weird quasi-happiness to find that someone is such a great writer that they didn't go through it and still managed to portray it sensitively and accurately.

I'm thinking of doing a post about "male minds versus female minds," but I'm a bit hesitant to do so because 1) I'm female, and 2) I need a couple days to get it thought out.

So, my fic. My fic is going to be way more action based any other fic here. Maybe.

For references, the fandom is Kingdom Hearts. And both of them are OC's.

Anyways, said characters form a classic Wanko x Nyanko yaoi couple. However there are difference:

The Seme:

Is not as dogged as most Wanko, mainly because he's not constantly dogging his Uke and is way more Bad Ass then most examples. But, he's dedicated to protecting his Uke (and his other friends who are a hetero couple) to the point of being a Unfettered Yandere (Though way more sane and nicer most examples. At first.). He deals with Survivor's Guilt (His world is destroyed and his brother is missing. He's assumed the worst with his parents.) and is trying to find his brother. His brother gave him a machine that put a super computer in his head (I haven't gotten that far yet.) to prepare him for his journey.

The Uke:

Is a cool beauty and a massive subversion of the typical Ojou personality. He's gone through a severe Break the Haughty moment before he meets the main character (The Seme) and he takes several levels in badass along the story. He's going to go through the exact opposite of wimpification. And is a Glass Cannon/Magic Knight. He's disowned by his parents for having natural talent being a Summoner, due to their religion.

Thoughts?

As far as I can tell without the actual fic, that sounds like two very well-rounded characters.

I agree, though I don't have much experience with KH fandom, but from a general perspective that sounds like it can work :)

I'm not too familliar with KH either, but by themselves they both sound like really, really good characters.

The problem with the KH fandom is that most of the fangirls have ruined the reputation of yaoi. When most people think yaoi, they think badly written sex scenes, wimpification (Sometimes both partners!) and Die for Our Ship. And since considering how big that fandom is, there's going to be homophobia.

I'm considering making Kairi to be a Yaoi Fangirl.

Seriously, there's no Badass Gay people? In a world filled the brim of Badassery? The fuck?

I also was thinking of making the Sora/Kairi/Riku love triangle an OT3.

That's not KH exclusive. Yaoi fangirls in general have ruined yaoi in many fandoms.

So you're gonna make Kairi an Affectionate Parody or Take That! at these yaoi fangirls? Done well, I don't see how that should be a problem.

In most Akatsuki-centered fics Konan of all people is portrayed as a yaoi fangirl, and this annoys me as I just plain don't see her writing Saso Dei doujinshi or ogling at Kisame and Itachi making out.

Yeah, the KH fandom is nowhere near the only thing ruined by yaoi fangirls. Throw a stick at anything that could possibly have a tiny whiff of slash, and yaoi fangirls will ruin it for the rest of the fandom.

I meant playing "Kairi being a Yaoi Fangirl" thing straight as it would be really refreshing to see that instead the classic Ron the Death Eater because Die For Our Ship.

Actually, Namine is most frequently a story's Yaoi Fangirl due to all the Akuroku.

edited 30th Sep '14 7:49:46 PM by Sharysa

Kairi never struck me as anywhere near the type who'd turn into a jealous bitch if Sora and Riku got together. I think she'd probably accept things gracefully.

Plus, I think the three of them would probably prioritize their collective friendship over all else. I can't see two of them hooking up and ignoring the other, regardless of which couple was involved.

OH YEAH. You just hit on one of my major rant issues - fics that always, ALWAYS set up a female character as some sort of angry, homophobic shrew for either the angst factor, outright bashing the female character, or simply a lazy way to destroy a canon relationship in fanfic.

How people react in Real Life is far more varied than that (and often has FAR less Unfortunate Implications regarding women). There can be feeling cheated on/lied to/betrayed, which DOES happen (especially if the man is bi and/or was presenting a thoroughly convincing facade as straight, and/or outright lied about the relationship to her) the same as it would be if he left for another woman - but that's almost always far more nuanced than "she becomes bitter and hateful," and think of her feelings in the matter too.

Then there's women who knew/suspected all along and willingly went along with being The Beard or with an open relationship or whatever, or who are like, when presented with "Look, I really realized I like other men" do react much in the I Want My Beloved to Be Happy way - and these relationships can and do often create Amicable Exes, or an ongoing open relationship, or any other number of situations that have no or very little acrimony and drama.

Then there's even women who are the Yaoi Fangirl and, on discovering their man is bi, are like "OH YEAH, I WANT TO WATCH."

And those are just three of how real women can and do react.

(And as a side note - I've known of at least one real couple that actually met thinking they were a straight couple, but the "female" partner actually realized he was transgender male and the cisgender male partner realized he loved him just as much as he'd loved "her" and was actually bi - and they stayed together, despite something that would be a stunning shock to many people...)

Pretty much the ONLY time the "OMG I HATE YOU AND I HATE HIM AND I WILL RUIN YOU" reaction comes into play as it does in fanfics IS if there was some definite attempt at actual betrayal/lying/an affair without their knowledge AND there's some reason to feel true, seriously deep betrayal and there's some other reason (culture, religion, etcetera) to be ragingly homophobic and/or some sort of serious psychological issue of being absolutely unable to accept that things didn't work out and move on. It can happen, but it's nowhere near as common as it is in fanfic.

edited 1st Oct '14 10:42:26 PM by RevolutionStone

Ugh, Margaret is always the homophobic Jerkass in Mordecai/Rigby fics and I hate it, especially since she's such a Nice Girl in canon. At least August did it right – when Mordecai came out she willingly accepted the relationship.

While we're on this topic, Die for Our Ship in general really irks me. Bashing a particular character is one thing, but bashing a female character because she's the main obstacle in a popular slash pairing is certainly another.

Topic revival! *gets out iPhone* Samarecarm!

Anyways, if I were to deconstruct that shrill of a woman who was homophobic, I'd have her to be a deconstruction of Relationship and Jerkass Sues (Think Naru Narusegawa except she gets more punishment. She suffers from being massively spoiled and Parental Neglect to the point where she's a Attention Whore) who is completely Wrong Genre Savvy.

If I were to put her into the story I'm writing, I'd have her fall in love with the hero (The Seme) and think that he's a Knight in Shining Armor because he rescued her one time. The same guy who uses ANY tactic to get the job done (Blinding opponents followed by a Groin Attack? Yes. Using wounded enemy soldiers as hostages? You betcha! Reluctantly kneecapping child soldiers with a laser rifle? He hates it but he feels it's a necessary evil as the main villain (also an OC) is using child soldiers.) who only painted and designed (read: followed the blue prints) his armor so it can look like a Gundam.

And when she finds out that The Seme is gay and crushing on his Uke hard (Psychic powers inducing Love at First Sight? Haven't seen that before! *coughucgundamcough*) she promptly freaks the hell out and tries to give him a What The Hell Hero. It's not effective at all as the Seme promptly turns her argument on her by pointing out her antics (Making really uncomfortable advances and general sexual harrassment.) and generally giving her a Reason Why You Suck Speech whilst doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZNIoj9yYYQ

edited 24th Oct '14 8:40:39 PM by HeirophantsFool