First point: This page has 177 wicks and 409 inbound links. Simply cutting it is not an option. The name has to stay and point to something.

The examples are split between

• "when a character completely bobbles how a game is played or the terminology of a game, (like thinking ice hockey involves a ball of some sort, or that a baseball player scores a touchdown,) usually when they're trying to show off. Generally played for humor, but it may be played seriously." and
• "The creator of a work got something related to sports wrong for whatever reason."

No one has done a wick check to see if the wicks are similarly split.

Proposal #1:

• Make two new pages, splitting it into those two separate pages
  AND
  * clean-up the examples and wicks
  AND
  * Make Gretzky Has the Ball a disambiguation page for the two new pages

Proposal #2 (M8e, in post #2):

• Keep the first definition (the in-universe one) under Gretzky Has the Ball
  AND
• Make Artistic License – Sports a real page that would cover the second (author gets something wrong) instead of a redirect
  

Other suggestions are invited.

The name itself is not under discussion.

edited 23rd Jun '14 6:24:20 AM by Madrugada

Proposal: Keep the first definition under Gretzky Has the Ball, make Artistic License – Sports a real page that would cover the second. (Artistic License – Sports is currently a redirect to Gretzky Has the Ball.)

I can see a disambig here.

I like that one. We already have the Artistic License series to cover author research failures, and the in-universe examples can easily be covered by a trope name we're not changing. And honestly I though that Gretzky Has the Ball was only about in-universe examples anyway.

I'm in favor of the split 2 proposed as well. While there was some(well, a LOT) of discussion on whether the name was too obscure, I think it does illustrate the idea a character gets something about a sport wrong to display his ignorance of the subject. Anyways, I think I'll do a wick check in a bit

Seconded.

Wick check on first 30 wicks:

Uses both definitions:

• Trope Distinctions/A-C(same for the Laconic)
• Calvinball

Is Artistic License – Sports:

• Ace Ventura
• Angels in the Outfield
• Arsenic and Old Lace
• A Shot at Glory
• Avalon High
• Back at the Barnyard
• Baseball Bugs
• Bizarre and Improbable Golf Game
• Blades of Glory
• Bull Durham
• Cake Wrecks
• Cardfight!! Vanguard

Sports rule is flubbed by character:

• Beware the Batman
• Series/Bones
• Brain Dead 13 (including the funny and character pages. Apparently, one char in particular is known for this)
• Fridge/Buffyverse

Unsure or Zero Context Example:

• Agent for H.A.R.M.
• Animalympics
• Athletic Arena Level
• Barney Bunch(as an aside, that page....I have no words...)
• Bill Bryson
• Anime And Manga
• Bested at Bowling

I'm not sure about you guys, but to me a clear pattern is forming that the rest of the wiki treats this as Artistic License – Sports. I can check another 30 wicks if you want, but this is pretty clear to me...

edited 23rd Jun '14 11:50:41 AM by Madrugada

Hrmm ... do we have already a trope for "character gets facts about X wrong"? Know-Nothing Know-It-All is not about simple factual errors; it's about "is a character who insists he or she knows everything; is always right; that they were the actual original creator of an idea; and who generally has an extremely high opinion of themselves and their abilities.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. They are grossly misinformed, or just lying, about everything they talk about with authority. "

Some examples might fit that too, but I think(haven't checked...) in most examples of Gretzky the character knows they lack knowledge but tries to fake it and just guess.

I don't know if it's "most" but certainly in a lot of them the character knows that they're faking rather than being honestly mistaken or having been deliberately misinformed by another character.

A Know-Nothing Know-It-All may be given Gretzky Has the Ball, but someone who uses Gretzky Has the Ball doesn't have to be a KNKIA

edited 23rd Jun '14 11:47:32 AM by Madrugada

Tryar's list of ZCE or unclear:

• Bested at Bowling: Sounds like "Character flubs sports rules" from the context: a man is beaten at a sport possibly because he doesn't even know the rules..
• Bill Bryson "Character doesn't know the rules or terminology." "Done with deliberate comic exaggeration when trying to describe listening to cricket on Australian radio:"

• Animalympics sounds like Artistic License – Sports.
• Agent for H.A.R.M., from watching the actual clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCPFBBOaSfE here), it appears to be Artistic License – Sports, but second opinions are welcome.
• Athletic Arena Level has two. Both look to me like Artistic License – Sports. The second one definitely is.
• Barney Bunch: Artistic License – Sports if it's this trope at all. Which it may not be — the game is one the creators made up (the worldwide Boner Baseball Superbowl).
• Anime And Manga (under Code Geass) Artistic License – Sports. There's no reason to suspect that Schniezel was faking being able to play chess The writers had him make a clearly illegal move that everyone else accepts as completely legitimate for some reason but what that reason is, isn't clear.

edited 23rd Jun '14 12:18:14 PM by Madrugada

So it sounds like it's even more strongly in favor of being used as Artistic License Sprts then. This may be a problem....

Edit: Also, again someone drops an r in my name. /peeve

edited 23rd Jun '14 12:37:42 PM by tryrar

Doing a bit of further investigation with the next 30 wicks.

Both definitions:

• Classic Disney Shorts
• Green Street
• Gretzky Has the Ball

Artistic License – Sports:

• Code Geass
• Cowboy BeBop at His Computer
• Critical Research Failure
• Days Of Thunder
• Film/Driven
• Manga/Eyeshield21
• Fever Pitch(averted, though the context is this definition)
• Troubled Production/Film
• Anime/FLCL
• 42
• Friday Night Lights
• Game of Nerds
• Giant Bomb
• Western Animation/Goofy
• Happy Gilmore

Character flubs sport:

• Series/Degrassi
• Double Dragon Neon
• FoxTrot(natch)
• Gravity Falls S1 E10 "Fight Fighters"
• Have I Got News for You

Unclear or Zero Context Example:

• Carnival Phantasm(they appear to not even be bothering with the rules in the first place)
• Casey at the Bat(I'd actually argue this is a shoehorned example)
• Council Of Cloudcuckooland
• Cruelty Is the Only Option
• Diabolus ex Machina

edited 23rd Jun '14 1:02:47 PM by tryrar

So, totaling up things, if you include usages with both definitions out of around 60 wicks checked there are 38 for Artistic License – Sports. that's a 63% usage!

So what this means is around 2/3rds of the people who use this trope are basically ignoring the definition and using it for it's redirect. This calls for at least splitting off Artistic License – Sports into it's own thing as proposed. I'm not sure what to do to keep people from misusing this once we do though....

edited 23rd Jun '14 1:08:54 PM by tryrar

The current definition is Artistic License – Sports. It never mentions the In-Universe variant where a character flubs.

Either way, I think a split is best. Since we already do have Artistic License tropes that are accepted as that, it's a good pattern to follow.

^^^^ I'm sorry, dear. I even doubled-checked to make sure I had it as T-R-Y, because I usually drop the first R and make it "Tyrar".

Casey at the Bat is shoehorned complaining. It may be a poor lineup, or it may be that the ninth inning started with the Number 6 hitter (Cooney at #6, Barrows batting seventh, Flynn eighth, and Jimmy Blake batting ninth) bringing Casey as the lead-off batter back around. Now granted, Casey isn't an ideal lead-off; he'd be more typically placed in the #3 or 4 spot. But that's assuming that the Mudville team has 9 players who are also decent hitters to start with. And they apparently don't ("the former [Flynn] was a hoodoo, while the latter [Jimmy Blake] was a cake").

...And that's more than enough baseball analysis.

edited 23rd Jun '14 1:51:10 PM by Madrugada

....double-checking, you are right. The quote at the top of the page really threw me off combined with that rather terse description. So basically according to the definition Artistic License – Sports is the correct definition, and an in-universe example where the character is the one making the mistake is actually misuse. Huh.

Roger, I just cleaned off that example then.

Lol, beat you to it

edited 23rd Jun '14 1:53:23 PM by tryrar

That Casey at the Bat example is bogus and I am taking it out.

EDIT—unless someone else does first, well done.

edited 23rd Jun '14 1:53:42 PM by gallium

Wow. That makes it fairly simple. We use Artistic License – Sports for Exactly What It Says on the Tin, in keeping with the other Artistic License family and keep this name for the character trope.

edited 23rd Jun '14 1:53:30 PM by Madrugada

Do we even need a crowner then? this seems like the only real sensible option...

Depends if we think having Artistic License Sports will keep people from continuing to use Gretzky Has the Ball as Artistic License Sports, since they've been doing it for so long.

Once we've fixed the wicks that use should drop off.

I dunno, it didn't seem to help Jumping Off the Slippery Slope or Killed Off for Real. I'd prefer turning Gretzky into a disambig.

These pages didn't get a cleanup that hit 100% of the wicks, I think.

I also prefer disambig.