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Mar 4th 2019 at 4:27:48 PM •••

As crazy as some people would think of me bringing this up, but could the Dragon Ball series apply (specifically leaning towards romanticism)? I\'ll let some fellow tropers look through this and offer their feedback before I add this under the Anime/Manga section. Major SPOILER WARNING about the Broly example (given that spoiler tags won\'t show up on the discussion page) for those who want to avoid being spoiled on that.

Dragon Ball: Given that the most of the heroes consist of various martial artists (of which the protagonist, Son Goku, spent his early life growing up in the wilderness after his adoptive grandfather\'s death) and in the case of Vegeta is a prince of a near extinct species who has some fervent pride for this heritage, and not to mention all sorts of magic and supernatural beings, this series is largely Pro-Romanticist by default. This isn\'t to say that the series is anti-Enlightenment, given that Bulma\'s Dragon Radar and other creations of Capsule Corp are important to helping Goku and co. with whatever needs they need, the series also displays some wariness of becoming overly reliant on technology and methodology, especially at the expense of instinct and appreciation of nature and traditions. Most (but not all) antagonists represent some of the negative aspects of Enlightenment thinking. Some examples include the following:

  • The Red Ribbon employs various forms of weapons and other technology (e.g. Battle Jackets) to achieve their goal of getting the Dragon Balls to achieve Commander Red\'s goal, which they believe to be world domination, but actually reveals he just wants to be a few inches taller. Everyone the Red Ribbon Army throws at Goku is defeated with ease and are only able to inflict a defeat on him when they hire Mercenary Tao Pai Pai, an assassin who also has extensive martial arts expertise. Also amusing to note that one creation of the Red Ribbon Army, Android 8 (who has a resemblance to the creature from Frankenstein (which is under Literature below), developed its own free will and decided against serving his creators and instead protect people and nature from the RRA.
  • King Piccolo, as a Contrasting Sequel Antagonist, is far more romanticist in outlook. In addition to restoring his youth via the Dragon Balls, he simply seeks to rule the world as a king with no other sort of ideological agenda (e.g. seeking to create a utopia, claiming the supremacy of one ethnic group over another, etc.). He also claims to be a demon (though later revealed to be of an alien race known as Namekians) and thus proudly wears his disinterest in modernity on his sleeve. He was the greatest threat that Goku and co. fought against when he first appeared because he had martial arts skills and training instead of relying on technology. Also worth noting that Akira Toriyama has stated King Piccolo is his favorite of villain from the Dragon Ball series. His son, Piccolo, by contrast eventually reveals himself as a good example of Romanticism (Rousseau Was Right) after training and caring for his ex-opponents\' son.
  • The Frieza Force, despite being ruled by a monarch, is highly Enlightenment based on their use of various forms of high technology, such as scouters, healing pods, and spacecraft (in the case of the last were far more advanced than anything that Earth had at the time of Raditz\'s introduction). While Frieza and his underlings tend to be smug when comparing themselves against the Z-fighters and Vegeta because of high opinion of their superior technology, but this ends up bring about their defeat. Numerous times, the villains end up losing because they miscalculate the ability of their opponents by their power levels alone, not accounting for skill or tactics, or the fact that the characters learn to recognize this and trick their opponents by hiding their power. The few exceptions of the Frieza Force are Vegeta and his squadmates (Nappa and Raditz) who are Romanticist (Being motivated by the pride of their race and also the few henchmen of Frieza who are after their own goals instead of being obedient cogs in the machine of Frieza\'s Empire). Fittingly Vegeta also survives to become a decent person as part of a long running Heel Face Turn.
  • Dr. Gero, relies on technology to create his soldiers, consisting of fully artificial androids (Androids 16 and 19), cyborgs (17, 18, and himself), and a Bio-robot (Cell) made from the genetic material of various warriors. However, Gero has long lost interest in the Red Ribbon Army\'s goal of world conquest and simply wants everyone to suffer in retaliation for his son\'s death just before the destruction of the RRA. Cell somewhat believes in Enlightenment principles though is more of a narcissistic Ubermensch than anything else. Cell genuinely believes that he is perfect upon absorbing 17 and 18 and holds a tournament to trumpet how he is the greatest being in the universe via Bio-engineering and then destroy everyone on Earth after his assumed victory in his Cell Games. However, Gohan taps into his emotions, brought about by the destruction of 16, to achieve a new form, Super Saiyan 2, in order to defeat and ultimately kill Cell.
    • Androids 17 and 18 are irreverent joy seekers who couldn\'t care less about what authority figures (Dr. Gero included as he found out the hard way) expect of them (and arguably during this time could be considered Byronic heroes of sorts). Android 16, like Android 8 mentioned earlier, initially follows his programming, but manages to gain an appreciation of nature and thus decided to fight against Cell to prevent him from destroying the Earth and all the people and animals that inhabit it. Though in latter sagas 17 and 18 grow out of this delinquency, with the former becoming a wild life ranger who protects endangered animals from poachers and the latter becoming a wife and mother.
  • Some of the Majin Buu saga\'s antagonists are more romanticist derived in their mindsets, thus making this another Romantic vs Romantic conflict. While Babidi and his minions have no particular philosophy, the titular Majin Buu of this story arc displays certain romanticist ideals. The first form that is shown, Fat Buu (sometimes called Innocent Buu) is like a young child that has not been raised to know right and wrong and thus is oblivious to how others are hurt by his path of destruction. Mr. Satan (AKA Hercule) manages to get him to promise to never kill again after befriending him. However, when gunmen attempt to kill Mr. Satan, Buu expels his wrathful and selfish nature into a new being, Evil Buu (of who can be considered an example of Dark Romanticism in a sense), who then absorbs the former becoming Super Buu and going on a rampage seeking to kill everyone simply because he can. However, when Super Buu is defused from Fat Buu he then turns into a being of pure animalistic instinct known as Kid Buu who is not acting under any sort of civilized notion of morality at all.
  • Zamasu and Goku Black are solid examples of the worst elements of the Enlightenment. Upon seeing both the barbaric nature of some mortals, despite the gods granting sapience to them choose not to live that way, as well as how powerful some mortals have become, Zamasu decides that all mortals most be destroyed in order to make a peaceful universe where only the gods would reside free of chaos and mortal evil. While other antagonists have committed destructive acts of villainy, he is portrayed as particularly monstrous based on Zamasu and Goku Black\'s warped view of justice.
  • The various teams that compete in the Tournament of Power during the Universe Survival Saga run the gamut between these philosophies. While the teams from Universes 4, 9, and 10 do not represent any particular ideology, the teams of Universes 2, 6, and 7 are mostly Romantic (with some individual exceptions) while those from Universes 3 and 11 are Enlightenment. Most of the Second Universe\'s fighters are devoted to Love and Beauty while the counter part universes of 6 and 7 embody various aspects of individualism. The fighters of the Third Universe consist of various cyborgs, robots, and a Mad Scientist. The Pride Troopers of the Eleventh hold strict views of Justice and are indifferent to emotional appeals, especially from lawbreakers, and thus only regard fighting and victory as a means to an end rather than any sort of test of skill and strength and certainly not any sort of sport to be enjoyed. Though the Third and Eleventh Universe were among the last three in the fight, they still fail to Universe 7\'s fighters given that they had a balance of both rugged individualism and trust between each other in order to outlast everyone else and win the battle royale.
  • In Dragon Ball GT, the Shadow Dragons to some extent represent a Romantic mindset. They are created as a result of the overuse of the Dragon Balls, of which Bulma\'s creation of the Dragon Radar contributed to this by making them easier to find, and thus unleash a sort of Gaias Vengeance on the human race.

Edited by JesseMB27
Jun 16th 2017 at 5:56:11 AM •••

Some of the tropes in the first section (Team E's) are obviously direct opposites of some in the second section (Team R's).

For instance, Screw Destiny vs You Can'tFightFate.

Is there some way to create a 2-column table, or something like that? One that is as easy to edit, for everyone, as possible.

May 25th 2016 at 9:31:50 PM •••

Don't understand the question? Do you mean if the academic world is inherently romantic or enlightened?

Mar 4th 2019 at 3:11:18 PM •••

Depends. Academics who focus on art and literature are going to more likely to lean towards Romanticism. Academics who focus on fields of mathematics, science, and history (AKA social sciences) would more likely lean towards Enlightenment.

Oct 25th 2015 at 2:51:29 PM •••

It's okay to both be enlighten and romantic all at once

Edited by lledsmar Hide/Show Replies
Jun 16th 2017 at 5:50:54 AM •••

Shhh! That's supposed to be a secret! The many who are still stuck inside the cave mustn't be told!

Jun 28th 2014 at 2:02:12 AM •••

Could Guilty Gear count?

  • In Guilty Gear, enlightenment ideas and technological science are basically deemed illegal and labelled "Black Technology" by the United Nations since it harms the environment, which is ripe with religious fundamentalism, nazism and xenophobia. This comes across as extremely ironic as magic and the Gear Project were designed for human evolution, only for them to backfire horribly when they began to be used for human greed, resulting in the Crusades, which in turn resulted in humanity regressing into a Dark Ages-like society. The only "enlightened" might be Zepp, who were originally a Totalitarian Utilitarian government before being overthrown and taken over by Gabriel and subsequently reformed into a more democratic nation.

Edited by 75.23.234.106 Hide/Show Replies
Aug 23rd 2014 at 12:51:06 PM •••

Hey, that sounds like my edit for 40k. LOL, I've influenced people.

Sep 7th 2014 at 1:28:48 AM •••

That sounds a bit too self-contradicting and employs bad Example Indentation in Trope Lists. I would condense it into one paragraph. And the last bullet point sounds like speculation anyway.

Aug 8th 2012 at 3:25:01 AM •••

I'm not sure the xkcd quote really fits for Enlightenment - the idea that it's possible to simply (or not so simply) educate people to be good was kind of essential for the Enlightenment mentality. Technology came second. Technocracy is a much more modern idea, though admittedly one that works somewhat better with Enlightenment than with Romanticism (although even that seems arguable).

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Jun 30th 2013 at 7:07:45 PM •••

Agreed, science and technology aren't interchangeable. Technically, rocks and sticks count as technology. It's just another word for "tools"

Feb 19th 2012 at 11:32:23 PM •••

I don't see how Adam Smith, the father of Capitalism, was either a romanticist or a cynic. Capitalism is more about "thinking" while socialism is more about "feeling". Also I just don't get how he would be a cynic. Socialism says that people would be Always Chaotic Evil if left to their own devices and if the government isn't there to regulate them. Capitalism, on top of using far less appeals to emotion than socialism or communism, thinks that people can be trusted to do the right thing considerably more. Not to mention generally the right is more portrayed as orderly and the left as more chaotic. It's far, far more complicated than the portrayal it seems to imply.

Edited by doomsday524 Hide/Show Replies
Feb 19th 2012 at 11:46:37 PM •••

Plus if the thing is supposed to be liberal=enlightenment=idealist=lawful? and conservative=romantic=cynical=chaotic? than that seems both farfetched and much oversimplified.

Apr 4th 2012 at 9:23:11 AM •••

While I would agree that the grounds for calling Adam Smith a Romanticist are rather weak (I'd put him more on the Enlightenment side if anything, but optimism about human nature or the human condition is neither necessarily Romanticist or Enlightenment), I think that's a pretty strange conception of socialism you have there. What you've described - the view that humans are Always Chaotic Evil and need the government to regulate them - would most accurately describe conservatism, but is so broad that it doesn't codify any particular ideology in any useful way. The Soviet Union may have held that view about its citizenry, but so did Chile under Pinochet, which was avowedly capitalist. That contention falls.

Socialism's view of the human condition sees people far more as blank slates, whose mindsets, beliefs, and actions are determined by the structure of the societies they are born in. In the Marxist conception of society, this is primarily determined by subordination and class interests, so that the upper classes will be driven to act to preserve their privileged position, and the proletariat will eventually be driven to rise up and rebel in their own interests. That's not viewing anyone as Always Chaotic Evil; just as products of their environment. Similarly, the Marxist conception has it that the capitalist system itself is 'regulating' the behaviour of people within it.

I also don't see how this is an appeal to emotion either, or how Capitalism as an ideology is necessarily devoid of appeals to emotion. Whether you agree with Marx's interpretation of capitalism or not, he was at least attempting to apply a rationalist, scientific approach to history, and it has birthed an approach to history which we continue to apply today. Marx's conception of Communism was also based on the power of people, free of the structures of domination which had previously ruled them, to apply reason and science to achieve a just and egalitarian society.

Jun 30th 2013 at 7:10:27 PM •••

Can't the enlightenment be pretty Chaotic? After all, science is constantly being reinvented and updated when new evidence is found. And aren't totalitarian fascists like Hitler considered Romantic? The whole Enlightenment=Lawful, Romantic=Chaotic thing isn't necessarily a given

Edited by 69.172.221.4
Aug 26th 2011 at 9:09:01 AM •••

A laconic entry proposal:

"The Enlightened prefer to think. The Romantic prefer to feel."

How does one create a laconic page?

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May 13th 2011 at 7:30:04 AM •••

Is it me, or does this article seem rather biased against Romanticism? Drawing particular attention to Romantcism = Lawful Evil and Enlightenment = Lawful Good. Shouldn't it be Romanticism = Chaotic Good and Enlightenment = True Neutral/Lawful Neutral, since the latter encourages an objective, impassionate view of the world?

Not sure if I buy the Romaticism = True Art is Angsty either, but that's probably just me.

Edited by Tolgron Hide/Show Replies
Jun 30th 2013 at 7:23:35 PM •••

If anything, the page is biased against the Enlightenment. There's like twice as many examples in favor of Romanticism. Hell, it lists things like "Fight Club" and "Jurassic Park" as being romantic, which makes no sense. Fight Club doesn't really say anything about the Enlightenment or Romanticism. It's mostly just satirizing the " I Want to be a stupid Jock" mentality that young men always seem to have. As for Jurassic Park, all the heroes are Enlightened scientists who use logic and their own scientific knowledge to survive the massacre, and the whole massacre to begin with is caused by the Park Owner, who cloned a shit ton of dangerous animals for no good reason other than he had the money to do it and like most people when they were young he wanted to see some fucking dinosaurs. seems like a pretty harsh condemnation of Romanticism to me.

Feb 12th 2011 at 6:03:09 PM •••

Terry Gilliam is all about this trope. It shows most in his critically acclaimed, but not too profitable The Adventures of Baron Munchausen where the reason-defying Baron is Romanticism incarnate, and conformist, reason-obsessed city official The Right Ordinary Horatio Jackson is Enlightenment, and the trope (also as society vs. individual, conformism vs. imagination, consensus reality vs. insanity) is inherent one way or another in all of Gilliam's movies.

Dec 3rd 2010 at 5:06:08 PM •••

  1. Fight Club is Romanticist, as befits anything based on the heavily Nietzschean-influenced work of Chuck Palahniuk.

Tyler Durden was very Romanticist, but it doesn't seem like the film itself took a side.

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Jun 30th 2013 at 7:24:46 PM •••

Wasn't Tyler Durden clearly in the wrong. He was a fucking terrorist and a cult leader, for god's sake! How is he not considered a Villain Protagonist?

Jul 1st 2013 at 4:15:10 AM •••

Tyler the Romanticist being wrong doesn't make Enlightenment right. The film is a non-Enlightenment-based attack on Nietzschean Romanticism, as I see it.

FastEddie MOD
Jul 23rd 2010 at 1:46:22 PM •••

Discussion pulled out of article:

  • C.S. Lewis favored something of a balance and thought that each had something to say. He loved logical discourse but also loved tales of old, especially Norse Mythology. He argued against the flaws he saw in enlightenment as interpreted in England because argument is the proper tool for "policing" enlightenment. By contrast extreme romanticism cannot really be argued against and for such manifestations of extreme romanticism as appeared in his own day he supported other methods of persuasion, which were tangential to his essays. In any case while he was in some ways romantic and in some ways enlightend, he would have said that one should Take a Third Option, that it was irrational to reject either and that in any case the most important thing was God, not romanticism or enlightenment.
    • He was however suspicious of enlightenment as a movement rather then as a mindset. The idea of logical argument existed long before the 18th century, and much of his lectures were about giving Take That! s to the idea that Medieval people were irrational.
    • He did make a Take That! to the quote above, when he pointed out in The Four Loves that few people were taught philosophy from an "impulse from a vernal wood" and that it might be a type of philosophy that the writer would not approve of as after all creatures in vernal woods, kind of, you know, eat each other. Neither enlightenment nor romanticism really escaped Lewis' snarks.

... if you guys want to settle on one outlook for this, it could be modified and go back in.

Jun 4th 2010 at 5:54:10 PM •••

I know it's kind of my fault, but this article is a giant unreadable wall o' text. If nobody objects, I'm going to do a complete overhaul over the weekend to simplify the whole thing.

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