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So, there's been a bit of discussion about the Unfortunate Implications of the depictions of women and men in the game. Now, I have to admit I'm as guilty as adding to both of them as anyone, if not more (and rather at length, I have to concede), but on reflection I'm starting to wonder whether they should be on the page at all. So I took the liberty of moving them here to discuss whether they should be on the page in their present form, in an altered form, or not at all.
The first example seems like a valid cut in any case, since the discussion doesn't start from a Fridge Logic point to begin with, but a little bit of a bitch-session about some people daring to think the game might be a bit sexist in some ways (which as I think I've made over-abundantly clear, is a valid viewpoint, but not necessarily a discussion appropriate for our purposes here):
The second is a bit more of a question mark, since it does start from what is a fairly genuine bit of Fridge Logic — where are all the women, anyway? — but seems to get a bit off track.
In any case, I've made my views known on both questions, and if it's okay to have them on the page I'm happy for them to be there and the discussion to continue — I'm just getting worried that it's a bit off-topic and off-point.
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you on this, DoctorNemesis. Is it stupid that I couldn't find this page? All the different discussion topics, it's difficult to keep track.
Anyway, I was the one who you replied to all that time ago and I'll say, first and foremost, that no, I wasn't saying there wasn't any sexism against women in the game. My argument, however, is that while Catwoman and Poison Ivy both dress provocatively, it's because Rocksteady are pandering to what they think men will be attracted to. They're patronising their male audience with those two, Catwoman in particular, and I dislike the insinuation from the developer that I'm going to ogle this same woman who delivers tired lines to Hugo Strange, calls her father a son of a bitch and breaks the bones of the male-only inmates in Arkham City. It also brings up the age-old point of how would a male hero be received if he called his missing mother a bitch and spent an entire game beating up women (albeit criminals). Even if scantily-clad, I'm guessing the treatment of women would still be focused on. So that, to me, was Catwoman's Moral Event Horizon. Because while you're right when you say we're not supposed to be rooting for the criminals, we ARE supposed to be rooting for Catwoman.
As for the subject of Batman being a positive portrayal of men, it hardly negates the issue I have. For example, do the more conservatively-dressed Vicky Vale, Talia Al Ghul and her guards negate the way Catwoman is dressed? The only ways that my issues with Arkham City's depiction of men would be negated is if Arkham City was actually shown to be unisex, as is stated in the game but never shown with the exception of villainesses, and if both Batman and Catwoman could perform the same moves on each, regardless of whether they're bone-breakers or punches to the head.
Talk about small worlds and timing — I only just this second decided to have a look in here for the first time in months... :-)
Anyhoo, Guest1001, if our previous discussion was anything to go by, I suspect that this may be one of those 'agree-to-disagree' issues to some degree, but, looking back (and taking into account what you just posted) time and distance has given me a bit of a different perspective on what you were saying, so I just want to start by also apologising if I mischaracterised or misinterpreted some of your views (as, looking back, I suspect I may have done). So, apologies on that front.
With regards to Catwoman, I can see where you're coming from, and there's definitely some condescension towards the male audience in the depiction of many of the women as borderline wank-material as well as the obvious issues with depiction of women (which I believe I noted in the earlier discussion); however, I would still have to question Catwoman's actions being classed as a 'Moral Event Horizon'; she is, after all, mostly operating in self-defence against people who are usually bigger and much more well armed than her. I'm also not sure that the 'man calling his mother a bitch and beating up female criminals' counter-example fully works in this case, simply because that's an inherently much less likely example to ever encounter. Yes, we don't see Catwoman (or Batman) beating up any female criminals, which adds an element of gender-imbalance, but I would argue this is less an example of what might be called misandry and more a simple reflection of the fact that generally speaking, for whatever reason, most violent offenders tend to be male, not female — and this is not to suggest that there are no violent female offenders whatsoever, just that they tend to be vastly outnumbered by male violent offenders (by 9 to 1 according to most studies); ergo, even if Arkham City were unisex, it would still stand to reason that males would still vastly outnumber female inmates, and thus that most of the conflicts either Batman or Catwoman would encounter would be with male prisoners. I just don't see how any of these issues you highlight mean we somehow shouldn't root for Catwoman.
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