During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
RIP Toriyama
Regarding Ultron:
Offscreen: Dominates/ massacres half of the world's population; Wipes out hundreds of Superheroes
Onscreen: Betrays and murders The Avengers via flashback; Results of his worldwide conquest are shown; Attempts to murder 4 teen superheroes before fully realizing they even were superheroes; Tortures his "father" for information; Has the paraphernalia of the superheroes he has killed on display (showing a pattern, invoking the whole Serial Killer rule that if at least one murder is onscreen, all other murders count); Basic attempted murder of protagonists; Being an all around Jerkass .
Ok, I've made up my mind. Officially voting ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Ultron.
Also, very nice quotes, guys. Well, as "nice" as a quote regarding a psychopath being evil can be...
edited 28th Jul '15 9:55:44 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Lizzid people!
to Ultron.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Animated!Ultron, quotes, Johnston Coffin image (at the very least it can be added to ImageLinks.Complete Monster).
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
I've added the quotes.
edited 29th Jul '15 4:58:09 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I just found this in the The Boondocks.
Complete Monster: While The Boondocks is a black comedy that rarely takes itself seriously, even when bad people are doing some really nasty things, a few villains stand out despite being simultaneously played for laughs: Ed Wuncler I. He is a corrupt, greedy, and sociopathic billionaire who not only scams people and proudly exploits child labor, he has also resorted to outright trying murder: He once hired Gin Rummy to assassinate a crooked kickball coach for taking bribes from Wuncler's business rival. We get to see the guy getting strangled, poisoned, and thrown off a bridge into the water, all on-screen. He once conspired with Ed III and Rummy to kill a random security guard with a pseudo-terrorist bombing, as part of a crazy scheme to commercialize his death. While that plan failed, Ed I manages to get away scott-free yet again, while he watches with apathy as his own grandson gets abducted at gunpoint by a rogue federal agent. Colonel Stinkmeaner's old partners in crime, the Hateocracy (Rufus Crabmiser, George Pistofferson, and Esmeralda Gripenasty). While Stinkmeaner wasn't a good person by any means, for the most part he was just a very annoying bully with an obnoxious sense of humor, and he was only a real threat in his second appearance (as an angry ghost trying to avenge his own death). But his crew take it to a whole new level... Crabmiser, Pistofferson, and Gripenasty really want to kill an old man and his little grandsons not for revenge (they admit to not even liking Stinkmeaner or each other), but just for the fun of it. They show how dangerous they can be by killing Bushido Brown. Lamilton Taeshawn seems to be an in-universe parody of a complete monster, but still a straight example. A school psychiatrist found this little boy, a cold and compassionless psychopath who really enjoys harming people, to be irredeemably evil. Throughout his episode, it's implied that Lamilton would probably become a future serial killer. We see him remorselessly hurting random people (even his own grandmother), while the worst thing he does is shooting a defenseless dog to death. And he does come dangerously close to murdering Riley. Ed Wuncler II is just as ruthless as his father, if not more so. He's a loan shark who preys upon the Freeman family, along with dozens of other bankrupt and indebted people in town. It's strongly implied that he stabbed someone to death in a fit of rage. And it gets worse when Ed II forces his debtors to work exactly like slaves in an amusement park (appropriately themed after the Antebellum South). After Huey repeatedly resists his enslavement, Wuncler tries to slice off his foot with an ax.
I'm kinda confused. Was this ever discussed in this thread about the Boondocks? 
Cut that ASAP
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, even if he (they) count(s), holy Wall of Text Batman! Another way you can tell it hasn't been discussed: Not only is it a wall of text, but all the characters are in one paragraph.
Hmm, actually looking at it, it's the opposite problem: too MANY paragraphs:
- Complete Monster: While The Boondocks is a black comedy that rarely takes itself seriously, even when bad people are doing some really nasty things, a few villains stand out despite being simultaneously Played for Laughs:
- Ed Wuncler I. He is a corrupt, greedy, and sociopathic billionaire who not only scams people and proudly exploits child labor, he has also resorted to outright trying murder:
- He once hired Gin Rummy to assassinate a crooked kickball coach for taking bribes from Wuncler's business rival. We get to see the guy getting strangled, poisoned, and thrown off a bridge into the water, all on-screen.
- He once conspired with Ed III and Rummy to kill a random security guard with a pseudo-terrorist bombing, as part of a crazy scheme to commercialize his death. While that plan failed, Ed I manages to get away scott-free yet again, while he watches with apathy as his own grandson gets abducted at gunpoint by a rogue federal agent.
- Colonel Stinkmeaner's old partners in crime, the Hateocracy (Rufus Crabmiser, George Pistofferson, and Esmeralda Gripenasty).
- While Stinkmeaner wasn't a good person by any means, for the most part he was just a very annoying bully with an obnoxious sense of humor, and he was only a real threat in his second appearance (as an angry ghost trying to avenge his own death). But his crew take it to a whole new level...
- Crabmiser, Pistofferson, and Gripenasty really want to kill an old man and his little grandsons not for revenge (they admit to not even liking Stinkmeaner or each other), but just for the fun of it. They show how dangerous they can be by killing Bushido Brown.
- Lamilton Taeshawn seems to be an in-universe parody of a complete monster, but still a straight example. A school psychiatrist found this little boy, a cold and compassionless psychopath who really enjoys harming people, to be irredeemably evil.
- Throughout his episode, it's implied that Lamilton would probably become a future serial killer. We see him remorselessly hurting random people (even his own grandmother), while the worst thing he does is shooting a defenseless dog to death. And he does come dangerously close to murdering Riley.
- Ed Wuncler II is just as ruthless as his father, if not more so. He's a loan shark who preys upon the Freeman family, along with dozens of other bankrupt and indebted people in town. It's strongly implied that he stabbed someone to death in a fit of rage.
- And it gets worse when Ed II forces his debtors to work exactly like slaves in an amusement park (appropriately themed after the Antebellum South). After Huey repeatedly resists his enslavement, Wuncler tries to slice off his foot with an ax.
- Ed Wuncler I. He is a corrupt, greedy, and sociopathic billionaire who not only scams people and proudly exploits child labor, he has also resorted to outright trying murder:
edited 29th Jul '15 6:31:46 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Did anyone see Rizzoli and Isles last night? Here’s my write up.
Daniel O'neill is a 16 year old sociopath who volunteered at an animal shelter just so he could test drugs on animals and watch them die. When he got bored killing animals, he moved on to humans. He kidnapped a girl his age and left her body in a cage in the woods. When his psychologist, Dr Foley, tried to alert Dr. Isles to how dangerous his patient was, Daniel killed him. He pretended to be a terrified witness, (and later came up with a BS story about how Dr Foley was molesting him). However, he dropped this façade around Jane, smugly taunting her about how he’ll get away with his crimes which he’s clearly proud of. He later tries to kill his mother after she agrees to have him committed to a psych ward.
edited 29th Jul '15 6:58:57 AM by rage24
An effortpost first would be very appreciated
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well, one could make an argument for the Wunclers. Everyone else will never be added.
Okay, again about The Boondocks. They where brought up days ago, and I remember explaining that no one on the show can count because too much heinous actions are played for laughs.
And regarding the Wunclers, I can see why Ed Jr could be argued, for trying to hack off a kids foot and forcing slavery on people in debt to him, again things like murder, rape, assault and fear of rape, child abuse, chaos and destruction, are all done in a humorous light on the show.
edited 29th Jul '15 7:37:07 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Plus not to mention some are Sociopathic Heroes at best and just another sociopath at worst.
edited 29th Jul '15 7:33:13 AM by ZetaRidge
Planeswalker
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
For Book Goth. He grew up under a religion of evil and with cannibalism as a standard way of life. In his homeland no one cared the cannibal bats killed other sentient bats until they started capturing bats for non-food purposes, and in the second and third books he's directly under a god of evil's influence. Seems like a valid Freudian Excuse to me. I also seem to remember he had an internal monologue about being willing to take Shade under his wing, so there's some twisted compassion in him. I don't know enough about the adaptation to vote on that version of him though.
- Tales of the Tempest: Rommy is an Inquisitor for the Church of Janna, a fantastic racist establishment that labels all Leimorneans as heretics and wants them wants them captured for magical experiments that harvest their souls. Not only is she a gleeful participant in this organization, she's a cruel sociopath who kills people for fun then blames it on her prisoners (usually innocent people who happen to be Leimorneans), tortures and brainwashes said prisoners, and sics Caius's brainwashed dad on him for fun and then kills the guy (in front of his son) after she gets bored of their fight. We see her kill the main heroine's parents for no reason as her Establishing Character Moment and it's implied she has a lot more victims than the ones we see. She also messes with Rubia's perception of her friends via Hannibal Lecture, again, because she thought it was amusing to watch her resulting Heroic BSoD. Everything she does is For the Evulz and she is utterly unrepentant about her crimes.
A total has-been.
For The Boondocks, I can only see Ed Wuncler II qualifying. Wuncler Sr. is pretty awful but not quite as heinous as he could be when compared to his son, and Lamiton T'Shawn was something of a parody, wasn't he?
Like I said, Ed Wuncler II is probably the most qualified for the trope, its just that the show has too much played for black comedy. Keep in mind even the abuse of slaves are played for laughs at one point.
RIP Toriyama
Agree with everything said about The Boondocks. Too much dark stuff is played for laughs on that show for anything dark played seriously to stand out.
Now, on Ultron:
: HT; Very Melon; Austin Dr; ACW
Unsure: Camberf; Overlord
Anyone else wanna weigh in?
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Ok, if SCP-106 has been approves as a keeper here's my attempted wirte - up:
- SCP-106 is a sadistic creature who loves kidnapping people (usually between 10 - 25 years) and bringin'em in a pocket dimension where he plays with them a cruel cat and mouse game with no chanches to escape him. Once he captures the victim, instead of simply killing him, he tortures and mutilated him before returning the mangled corpse to the real world some days later. During Halloween, he escaped from his containment and started his murderous spree by killing a teenage girl, two young boys, and a mother. When a MTF agent was sent to recapture him he tortured him to death by slowing taking chucks away from his body within a time span of four days until he finally succumbed to his injuries. While a literal monster, SCP-106 is shown to be fully sentient and his personality is like the one of a Serial Killer who sees torture, killing and mutilation like a game.
edited 29th Jul '15 1:28:12 PM by ST89
I have seen some cutscenes of Silent Hill Homecoming on You Tube, and I don't think Judge Holloway qualifies. Margarate seems like a Well-Intentioned Extremist who is trying to keep her place safe frm their god, who demands saccrafices. See the link below for yourselves. Note her line "I had good intentions".
jjj
for Animated Ultron
So I came across this 20120 video game Dante's Inferno, a God of War esque take on Dante's Divine Comedy - particularly the nine circles of hell, and I thought I'd bring up the games villain Lucifer.
Who is he ? This rendition of the devil is depicted as the de-facto ruler of hell and it's number one prisoner, in the ninth circle of hell being frozen in Lake Cocytus and bound by the Chains of Judecca. Despite this, Lucifer manages to manifest as a shadowy spirit to contact people outside of his prison.
What does he do ?
The game kicks off in the third crusade, where a crusader named Dante, who despite his faith has commited many atrocities. Dante is assassinated on the first level, where he battles and defeats Death and takes Death's scythe. Dante leaves the Crusade, stitching a red holy cross-shaped tapestry onto his torso, depicting every sin he has committed in the past. He returns to Florence, only to find his lover Beatrice Portinari and father Alighiero brutally murdered. Beatrice's soul appears before Dante, telling him that she knew he would come after her before a shadowy manifestation of Lucifer drags her into darkness. Dante finds his way too the gates of Hell with the help of a poet named Virgil, and they descend through the nine circles of Hell, along the way punishing or absolving souls, fighting Lucifer's minions and of course, facing Dante's own sins.
Along the way, Lucifer often makes an appearance, first in Lust, where he shows Dante that Beatrice is being corrupted into a succubus in the Carnal Tower, and reveals she made a deal with him; if Dante isn't faithful to her, Lucifer will take her to hell as his bride - Dante broke his vows to Beatrice with a captive woman back in Acre, in exchange for sparing the life of her "brother". In Gluttony, Lucifer shows Dante the deaths of Beatrice and his father; they where killed by the husband of the woman Dante slept with, who was also the assassin who killed Dante. In Greed, Dante defeats and absolves his father, who was promised by Lucifer a thousand years free of torment and a horde of gold if he kills his son. In Anger, Lucifer presents Beatrice to Dante, as she gives herself to him by eating the forbidden fruit, heartbroken by Dante's betrayal. In spite of this, when they next meet, Dante insists to Beatrice that he face all his sins, but Beatrice reminds him that he slaughtered the Saracen prisoners out of anger and that her brother Francesco died taking the blame for it. Realizing that he has sinned beyond redemption, Dante admits that his place is in Hell and asks Beatrice to forgive him. This sacrifice is enough to undo Beatrice's transformation and the Archangel Gabriel descends into hell and takes Beatrice to heaven, telling Dante his redemption is close at hand.
In the games final level, Dante descends into Lucifer's prison, finally confronting him in the form of a giant three faced demon. There Lucifer reveals that Beatrice was merely bait; Lucifer reveals that several enormous chains Dante had destroyed on his journey were the Chains of Judecca, which kept him imprisoned, and now he's free to return to Paradise and take over, with a path paved with the sins of man. Lucifer's true form emerges from the giant demon and that Dante personally fights and impales with Death's scythe. Dante is about to finish him off but Lucifer gloates that since Dante himself is dead, he can never leave hell. Dante pulls a Heroic Second Wind revealing that since he absolved many souls, they have the power to free him, Lucifer tries to pull a We Can Rule Togehter offer but Dante summons the souls to help cast Lucifer back into his prison. Dante himself is absolved into purgatory.
In purgatory, Dante casts off his tapestry which turns into a snake, which slithers off and the game closes with Lucifer's laugh as Dante begins his next journey.
Redeeming Traits or Freudian Excuse ?
The game uses his fallen angel backstory, so there's no Made of Evil arguments. He is prideful, manipulative and Faux Affably Evil and seeks to overthrow God and take over; pretty much the criteria of other CM depictions of the devil. He does have a Humans Are the Real Monsters mindset, claiming that humans and even Dante himself has done worse than him, however this can be attributed to his Fantastic Racism, which was born of jealously that God made humans in his image, and his belief that angels (specifically HIM) are superior. For his claims that he stood for reason and justice, but since his plan was to "earth tremble, shake kingdoms, and leave the world a desert!" and erase good from the universe, citing all will burn in his glory.
Heinous by the stories standards ?
Now it should go without saying, Dante borders onto villain protagonist, with his sins in life; being a mass murderer, cheating on his wife (despite clearly loving her). That said, this game is Dante's redemption quest, especially since someone he loves is being punished for his sins. However, as Lucifer functions as the ruler of Hell, you know the place where the damned suffer endlessly with eternal torment, and is planning on overthrowing God, seizing Heaven, and eradicating good in the universe, I can safely say Lucifer is pretty bad himself.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
I recall him being voted down a long time ago, because like Kratos, Dante was deemed the worst person in the game.
Exept the worse Dante did was the murder of prisoners, and unwittingly got the love of his life sent too hell, Lucifer's plan amounted to -in his words- End the universe. At one point he does claim Dante's sins are worse than his own, but I got the vibe that he was speaking out of his hatred for humans.
Here's the quote "You dare assault ME?! YOU, who have done far worse then I! I stood for my fellow angels, for reason and justice. And then He made you, in His "image". You, the flawed creation! And I was to bow down to you? My gratitude for breaking the chains of Judecca. You dolt! Behold your ruin, and witness my escape into the Kingdom of Purgatory, and Paradise!"
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
I added the V for Vendetta examples to that work's YMMV page:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/VForVendetta
I added a few sentences for the Creedy write up, but I'm not sure what I can add to Sutler.
I will say yes to Shiz and yes to Adam Sandler (
).
I briefly brought up that animated Ultron when I discussed the various Marvel animated movie villains about a year ago (I proposed Herr Kleiser, but he was voted down.) Some people think too much of his villainy was off screen. If enough of his actions are on screen, then I think he would count.
Also those are some quotes in the posts above.
Regarding fan fiction, I would prefer if we tackled fan fiction with a little more artistic merit, there then shock value stories that take a kid friendly story and turn of the heroic/sweet/nice characters and turn him or her into a violent psychopath. I think a fan fiction example that dealt introduce a new villains or take an existing villain and use that villain as a monster are more worth our time then some story with a psychotic Care Bear murdering people.
edited 28th Jul '15 8:59:23 PM by Overlord