Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
The Dark Priest himself
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to one of the morb of the time
.....
Hi guys. It's been awhile since I posted here. And I think last time someone asked for the status of Lorion over here. So yeah, the proposal was incomplete, I didn't give enough information. That's why he got rejected so far and I agree to rework his proposal for a latter date, with more facts and information.
But in the meantime, I did promise you on some new things as a new testing bed. So here we are for a new character proposal.
What is the work?
Mobile Legends: Bang Bang is a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena game made by Moonton, and generally a rival of Arena of Valor. Like them, the lore is often overlooked but also contains a lot of world building within the realm known as 'The Land of Dawn'.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
The candidate we're talking about today is the Queen of Blood, Alice. For now, she is the queen of the Blood Demons ruling the Shadow Abyss and trying to conquer the human world in the name of the Lord of Abyss. However, the Lord of Abyss is generally someone who never appears in story, leaving Alice to be The Heavy, for the most part. In addition of Alice, the other heavyweight heavy is the Fire Demon leader, Thamuz, but he heavily suffers from being Out of Focus, so Alice is the one who is responsible of a majority of issues in the Land of Dawn.
But let's start from the beginning, shall we?
So, Alice was actually born human, and generally a pitiful one too. She's the last daughter of Antalus family, and she's horribly abused by her own family member because they're... well, they're horrible jerks. At one point, she discovered a bloody gem that was a leftover from her family's loots. She hears demonic voices tempting to sell her soul to the Abyss in exchange for power. While she hesitates at first, she gets bullied further, and so she decides to sell her soul.
After laying low for a while and somehow regaining the favor of the house Antalus, the time comes when two of her elder brothers enter a squabble about who's going to inherit the house when their father passes away. Alice then stokes up the rivalry between the two brothers until one of them killed the other, and as a result, the surviving brother gets executed. Not enough from that, Alice then secretly poisons her father to claim House Antalus on her own, and rallies its people to do what the demon from the gem told her: Desecrate the temple of the Lord of Light, the resident God they prayed to, blaming him for their misfortune. The people of Antalus eats that up and do as she said. As a result, the whole group of people under House Antalus face the wrath of the Lord of Light and they all get turned into what is known as the Blood Demons, with Alice being turned into a succubus-like creature thanks to her pact with the demon.
Alice then takes the Blood Demon clan to retreat to the Abyss where she rules over them as the Queen of Blood Demons, and takes on missions in the name of the Lord of Abyss (the antithesis of Lord of Light) to terrorize humans because she's just lustful about the suffering of others. The bullied, weak girl is gone, but in its place, a sadistic queen is born.
As stated, Alice is mostly The Heavy to the Lord of Abyss. However, when there's an atrocity caused by the Abyss in the Land of Dawn, you can be sure that Alice is the one planning and executing it. Apologies if this sounds like a List of Transgressions, but I have to.
- Even as the Queen of Blood Demons, she shares leadership with the King of Fire Demons, Thamuz. However, they don't get along, mostly because Thamuz doesn't like how Alice isn't even a pure blooded demon, but someone who was once human. Because of this, they often engage in territorial disputes, and the Blood Demons that get caught in the crossfire and located in Thamuz' region get horribly mistreated by Thamuz. Because of this, some Blood Demons raised a mutiny and left the Abyss to try to live with humans and seek redemption from the Lord of Light (one of them being the hero Cecilion), only to be rejected by humans. Rather than welcoming them back, Alice instead approves the plan for her loyal Abyssal demons to hunt them down and kill them down like traitors. So, despite being the progenitor of the Blood Demons and being antagonized with Thamuz, Alice isn't that much of a good leader of her own people.
- The one time that Alice collaborated with Thamuz is when Alice executes her own plan to give a middle finger to the people of light. She sends her own demon infiltrator squad to capture the 1-year old prince of Moniyan Empire, Dyrroth, and then, together with Thamuz, raises Dyrroth as a demon prince, an opposite of what he would have stood for. This traumatizes the whole royal family of the Moniyan Empire and hardens the stance of Dyrroth's would-be-elder sister, Princess Silvanna, that she becomes a warrior to look for him. And sure enough, they end up meeting on the battlefield. The tragic battle happens because Alice feels like it and just wants to spite the Light further, cursing her own kin like before was not enough for her.
- Alice is also responsible for visiting the village of the mage Pharsa, and then slaughtering everyone in it. This sets Pharsa to become a vengeful mage, but Alice really doesn't care.
- Alice also had in mind to gather the Demon Kings inhabiting the Land of Dawn. One of the targets she aimed for is Lieh, who inhabits the warrior Yin. Lieh doesn't feel like joining up with her for several reasons, even if he's also a bloodthirsty monster who possesses Yin on a daily basis. Alice doesn't take no for an answer, so she sends hordes of Abyss to hunt down Yin and his companions, first Melissa, then Xavier and eventually Julian. It doesn't matter how many innocents she'll have to kill and how many towns he'll have to ravage, Alice will get her chosen demon, which will definitely result in the death of an innocent boy who's just learning about what it means to kill people, like Yin.
- Alice later picks up a half-demon boy named Arlott after he was left alone with no home and being shunned by humanity. However, after picking him up and letting him train as a talented battle general, Alice left him alone when his fellow demons distrusted him for his human half and stabbed Arlott in the back, leaving him for the dead. It shows that when Alice sees a potential, she can easily just throw it away on a whim.
- The one thing that Alice did but not majorly her fault in the first place is how she recruited the fallen smith Terizla, because he has been wrongly arrested and accused for heresy for upholding freedom and not obeying the Moniyan Church of Light (it's a long story). However, it also shows that Alice is a shameless temptress, looking for people at their lowest depth of despair, then tempt them with revenge and get them to the dark side. While the Church of Light was largely responsible for Terizla's misery, Alice is the one to capitalize and finishes his fall from grace, and not because of pity either. She just wants a new muscle for the Abyss. And ironically, it is also the same way as Alice herself fell from grace, but she'd be happy to inflict the same thing onto others.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
All Alice had was her tragic past where she became a victim of bullying and the darkness of mankind. Maybe she became a demon in the first place because she wanted to escape bullying. That is an undeniable Freudian Excuse. But she still willingly sold her soul to the demons and secretly caused the fall of House Antalus even if she could've been content with being the dutiful daughter who was no longer bullied later in her life. She became power hungry and erased all the stances that she was once this vulnerable human girl, and now seeks only to terrorize the Land of Dawn, and she isn't even trying to protect her own abused Blood Demons. Even if she faces opposition by Thamuz for not being a full-blooded demon like him, Alice ignores all those and continues her desire to cause more harm to others.
Therefore, whatever 'Freudian excuse' or 'tragic backstory' she had, none of them hold weight any longer to Alice's tons of atrocities as well as the inhuman plans she has executed with a glee.
Are they bad enough?
All right, let's start with the competitions in the Land of Dawn for now since not many are familiar. The candidates of what could be considered the evil people here include:
- Khufra: Avaricious emperor who ruled the desert with an iron fist, and gleefully expanding his domain mercilessly. Stopped by a betrayal of his lover Eslora, and then sealed for centuries. He wakes up in the present time and desires not only to continue his conquest, but also to avenge himself by hunting down Eslora's descendant Esmeralda.
- Compared to Alice: Khufra is incredibly selfish and power hungry just like Alice, and he doesn't need to be abused to reach this state. However, Khufra has less visible accomplishments since the damage he has done has been undone and more or less prevented with the current people within his area (Minotaur and the Minoan Empire, though that one's wiped out for different reasons than Khufra's antics, or Khaleed who guards the desert to this day). Also, Khufra really did not abuse his own people that helped him conquer things.
- Zhask: Alien insect warlord who has plundered planets and destroying them in process. He destroys because it's just in his nature, and needs his people to survive. However, his potential of destruction is clear as day. He's being pursued by his galactic rival, Yve, to prevent more destruction, and when he arrived in the Land of Dawn to start his new plunder, he met resistance by Aurora (playable hero) and Tobias (NPC). Tobias dies to give Aurora the chance to drive away Zhask, right now he's just recovering to restart his plunder.
- Compared to Alice: Zhask has the edge from Alice about the amount of destruction he caused. Compared to Alice, he has destroyed countless planets and would do so again. However, I think the one thing that makes Alice worse is that... Zhask is an alien. He runs on Blue-and-Orange Morality, his tendencies to destroy planet seems more like because it's like his nature of an animal trying to eat and survive, so nothing personal for the people of the planets he destroyed. Compared to Alice who knows what's wrong or not, but chose the wrong ones all the time. Most importantly, he has less visible atrocities than Alice (we don't even get to hear the planets he destroyed, therefore it became a case of Offstage Villainy), his only visible atrocity so far is the death of Tobias, leading to a more personal vendetta by Aurora. Aside of that, a lot of horrible things happening and visible in the Land of Dawn seems like to be not of Zhask's doing.
- Hanzo: Rogue ninja who came across of the cursed sword Ame-no-Habakiri, which demanded to be fed more souls. In exchange, Hanzo gets to be able to master all kinds of ninjutsu to be the greatest ninja in existence. Hanzo absolutely goes along with this, he just wants to be the best ninja, no matter how many people he would kill. He killed every ninjas that came to apprehend him and fed their souls to Ame-no-Habakiri, one of them being the beloved brother of fellow ninja hero Hayabusa. After killing so much, Hanzo just stops bothering remembering the names. Regardless, Hanzo starts realizing that there are more souls to be fed to Ame-no-Habakiri rather than just around his region at Cadia Riverlands. Therefore, Hanzo embarks a journey to wander the Land of Dawns and feed even more souls to Ame-no-Habakiri.
- Compared to Alice: A strong contender. Hanzo is a heartless bastard who killed his own kin for selfish reasons, condemning them to be devoured by a demon. And he doesn't even share Alice's troubled past, Hanzo has been evil right as he's introduced. You might think that he doesn't have agency because of Ame-no-Habakiri, but this is not the case: Hanzo willingly works in tandem to feed souls to it just for the sake of his goal of becoming the best ninja. I guess his blemish is that he's just limited to Cadia Riverlands, whereas Alice has been spreading her terror way beyond her domain (but he plans to fix it by traveling and expanding his feeding spree). And yeah, he's just a mass murderer, he doesn't do manipulations either. I think I'll try considering him for a proposal later if Alice's proposal flies well.
- Thamuz: The original Lord of Fire Demons. A full-blooded demon who believes in "The strong shall trample the weak". He's supposed to be partners with Alice, but doesn't like her because she's not born a demon, but comes from a human origin. Hence, he likes to compete ownership with Alice's territory, leading to many of Blood Demons getting on his bad side and tortured. That being said, both Thamuz and Alice answer to the Lord of Abyss and indulge in Teeth-Clenched Teamwork in spreading terror in Land of Dawn. However, Thamuz is the brawn to Alice's brain, so he just mostly executes the atrocities up front, usually leading armies and killing the weak things he came across.
- Compared to Alice: Thamuz is almost equal to Alice, because he's similarly a Bad Boss (it's implied that he treats disobedient Fire Demons the same way as he abuses the Blood Demons, but they're more 'appreciative') and generally just has the goal of killing things in sight, especially weaklings. However, Thamuz suffers the Out of Focus syndrome. Most of the atrocities he did, it's mostly on the same plan with Alice, so when he does something atrocious, Alice is nearby to also take credit and actually planned the whole thing.
Being The Heavy means that if there's an atrocity, for the most part, Alice will be there to execute it with a glee. And she does all those on her own will, nobody asked her to do bad things, and yet she did. She has both quantity and quality in terms of the sufferings she inflicted (only Hanzo seems to come close as far as undiluted evil, but he just lacks in quantity). Even if she technically answers to the Lord of Abyss, Alice is a class of evil on her own, an extremely strong contender of pure evil in the Land of Dawn.
Final verdict?
Between family-slaying via manipulation, desecrating religious items, mistreating her own people, kidnapping, corrupting, massacring innocents, abandoning the people she picked up after giving them hope, tempting people to the dark side the same way she was tempted and generally being content and happy in being as much as the biggest bitch in the verse committing as many atrocities as she can, all while making sure her tragic origin is completely eclipsed... yeah, I think Alice fits.
Edited by ChrisX on May 25th 2023 at 9:08:11 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, first off, please trim that; it's nearly 2,500 words.
Also, that seems like a significant Freudian Excuse. Doesn't have to justify, just has to explain.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Snee and Glyde
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Slight yes to Glyde.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ultimate Moral Compass
Snee, Glyde, and Jared Leto
Not the Eye
to Glyde
- What If Darth Sidious TRAINED Anakin Skywalker (link): Palpatine uses his powers to give Anakin nightmares of Jedi killing him and massacring innocents across the galaxy. He uses an illusion of Qui Gon Jinn to lure Anakin to Toth, where he manipulates the boy into becoming his apprentice. He has Dooku subject Anakin to Training from Hell on Korriban to mold him into a weapon. Palpatine sends Anakin across the galaxy to learn about the Dark Side while he himself prepares to kick off the Clone Wars
.....
@ACW: I thought that since this is a title that a lot of people don't know about, I have to be detailed in answering that, otherwise people may get the wrong idea. But all right, I think I see two potential parts that can be trimmed: The comparison and the List of Transgressions. Which one should I trim/remove? (or both??)
Second, I thought a Complete Monster can have a Freudian Excuse, but only if the depravities they have done far outweigh their excuse?
(Wow, been so long since I made a proposal (even before the Lorion part) that I think I'm getting really rusty in proposing).
Edited by ChrisX on May 25th 2023 at 9:55:33 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You'll have to go on par with things like Bolas, the Plutonian and Koba to really outlive your Freudian Excuse. Long story short it has to be like, very disproportionate and you'll have to go out of your way to be as horrible as possible so your Freudian Excuse doesn't cut it. This might be nowhere near that situation.
Considering I'm not familiar with this, I won't be voting yet.
Edited by Mr-ex777 on May 25th 2023 at 11:11:12 PM
Writeup:
Rosetta and the Well: Pygmalion is a demonic being, that took the form of a well and used it to manipulate people into letting it devour them alive. Mutating the body of it's previous victim into a "mermaid", after it had slowly devoured everything inside them, Pygmalion tends to lure it's next prey closer to itself by telling a made up tragic story and convincing them to "exchange places with the mermaid". Intending to continue tricking and devouring people forever, Pygmalion tried to take Rosetta Halloway by force, should she reject the offer of a "mermaid".
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Should this Palpatine go under the Franchise-wide folder of the Fan Works, or Films only?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
.....
I don't know who you refer to... except slightly on Plutonian (as in, I haven't read Irredeemable fully, but I kinda know the gist of it). OK, s'cuse me, gonna get back to the pages first...
Not the Eye
Films only works.
.....
Wait, on second thought, after a bit of thinking, I think I have the final verdict on Alice myself, and... well, she doesn't fit.
The more I think about it, turns out that I know someone from who was on a similar boat with her: Having a powerful Freudian Excuse that explains why the character is such a shitfaced ruthless bastard: Thouzer. So... with that being said, Alice at worst would've been a Jerkass Woobie who can be Unintentionally Unsympathetic if someone tries to play on her tragic origin.
But the write up DOES opens up for a potential of someone who's been evil from the start and having no Freudian Excuse to back it up: Hanzo. So... okay, I think I'll try on Hanzo as well while implementing the 'trim the entry' advice from ACW. I'll make sure to not be overly wordy.
Thank you and sorry for the time wasted.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Caesar
Sure to Morbius
So as just came up on MB, a producer on several Marvel shows confirmed the continuity of the Marvel Universe line was a bit more wonky than first thought. So the ordering on the Marvel Animation CM page probably needs some changing...as is, it goes:
- Assemble
- Guardians
- "Others":
- Ultimate
- Hulk
We should probably edit the listing to group the ones in the same universe together. So something like:
- Assemble
- Ultimate
- Hulk
- "Others":
- Guardians
Edited by Ravok on May 25th 2023 at 8:56:22 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The Ultimate Lifeform
@Chris X, I think @Mr-ex777 mistyped Belos. As in Emperor Belos/Philip Wittebane. Now just a heads up I am ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the Queen since that is a legitimate Freudian Excuse. Philip has his own in his upbringing and his brother. The reason that he is still a Complete Monster is that his Puritan upbringing was also imposed on said Brother Caleb. Caleb grew to love Witches and the Boiling Isles. He even has kids with one Evelyn Clawthorne. For that Philip killed him in cold blood. And he made clones of him to create his own idealized image of Caleb: An obedient Witch Hunter. And if that clone showed the tiniest flaw they were killed too. Over, and over, and over. By the modern day Philip has killed his brother hundreds of times over. All because said brother wasn't exactly who he wanted him to be. That isn't even going into the whole genocide the Demon Realm because a Witch stole my brother from me angle. His Freudian Excuses are continually subverted, because at the end of the day he is a selfish, narcissistic, psychopath who wants to live out his delusion of being a noble hero.
Edited by ForgoLight on May 25th 2023 at 9:09:45 AM
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Okay going to try a Dragon Ball CM, specifically from Dragon Ball GT.
This one might come as a surprise: Dr. Myuu, the Big Bad of the first season's "Black Star Dragon Ball" Saga, a secondary villain in the "Super 17" Saga, and overall the most reoccurring villain of GT.
After a lot of thought and research I think I can make a case for this guy.
What is the work?
The not-quite-so acclaimed sequel series to Dragon Ball Z with quite a lot of controversial writing decisions like turning Goku into a kid, focusing the entire story on him and his granddaughter Pan (with Trunks tagging along), as well as the first Saga involving an episodic format of hunting the Black Star Dragon Balls throughout the galaxy and facing off against gimmicky one-shot villains.
But soon enough Cerebus Syndrome kicks in and it's revealed another party is after the Black Star Dragon Balls. That someone is..
Who is Dr. Myuu and what has he done?
Dr. Myuu is a Mad Scientist and apparently a native of Planet M-2, as well as an expy of Dr. Gero from DBZ. In the present day it is inhabited by techno-organic lifeforms known as Machine Mutants, who were created by Dr. Myuu. It is revealed that the planet was once inhabited by humanoid aliens, but Dr. Myuu being The Social Darwinist viewed them as too weak and had them all slaughtered using Machine Mutants that he created, who took their place as the dominant species.
After taking over M-2, Dr. Myuu then began plans for conquering the entire galaxy/universe, with his goal to finish his ultimate Machine Mutant creation: Baby, which he intended to use to subjugate the galaxy.
Needing to harvest energy to revive Baby, Myuu founded a cult on another planet, centered around the worship of a Machine Mutant he created named Luud, who is disguised as a god. He then recruited a con-artist named Dolltaki off the streets, who became head priest and used his charisma to scam people into becoming worshippers. The worshippers would visit Luud's temple as pilgrims, where they would have their lifeforce collected by Luud, in a process involving transforming the worshippers into inanimate dolls (with them remaining fully aware of everything) where their energy and bodies are absorbed inside of Luud.
When the Dragon Team arrive on Planet Luud, they defeat Luud's main protector, Cardinal Mutchy. So Dolltaki is forced to prematurely awaken Luud himself to fight the intruders, during which Pan gets turned into a doll (which Dolltaki develops a creepy fondness for). Dr. Myuu observing the fight sees that Luud is losing and requires more power, so orders Dolltaki to feed Pan to Luud. Dolltaki is unwilling to part from Pan, so Myuu turns Dolltaki into a doll too and feeds them both to Luud.
Now trapped inside Luud, Dolltaki is left with no choice but to assist the heroes in how to escape, giving them the intel to defeat the fake mechanical god. With Luud defeated, all of his trapped victims are freed, including Dolltaki, who then flees back to Planet M-2 in an attempt to bargain for his life with new information. However by this point, Myuu has ordered his chief enforcer General Rilldo to execute Dolltaki in a final You Have Outlived Your Usefulness.
Interested in the Saiyans' impressive power, Dr. Myuu orders General Rilldo to capture them alive so that he could use their bodies in further experiments. After several fights, between Rilldo's men and the Saiyans, Rilldo succeeds in capturing all three Saiyans and sending them to Myuu's lab. Where Myuu preps machine ready to dissect the Saiyans so they can be transformed into Machine Mutants. But the heroes robotic Machine Mutant buddy Giru, who has pretended to defect to Myuu's side, reveals his true allegiance and sabotages the process while freeing the Saiyans.
Myuu's secret project is then exposed, Baby, who is floating in a tank. However Trunks, who had escaped earlier, already discovered Baby's tank and sabotaged it so that it deprived Baby of his nutrient feed. Myuu is exasperated that his ultimate creation and life's work is perishing, where he tries to revive Baby and breaks down in tears.
To Myuu's surprise, Baby awakens upon hearing the word "Saiyan" and bursts out of his tank. An overjoyed Myuu orders Baby to kill the Saiyans, but they end up blowing Baby up. A wounded Myuu manages to sneak off in a ship, only for a fragment of Baby to slide into his body.
As Myuu takes off, he vows to regrow Baby again... only for a regenerated Baby to burst out of Myuu's body Xenomorph style and kills him. Baby then goes on a Motive Rant explaining he created and programmed Myuu, who is merely another Machine Mutant, and gave Myuu the designs for Luud and his other creations.
Myuu ended up getting sent to Hell, where he meets Dr. Gero himself, who proposes an alliance and combining their scientific knowledge to get revenge on Goku. They create a Machine Mutant duplicate of Android 17, called Hellfighter 17, who generates a signal to his counterpart. Both 17s generating this energy causes a rift to open up between Hell and Earth, where all of the past villains that Goku and the heroes killed escape. The Doctors then have 17 deliver a message to Goku, telling him to enter Hell otherwise they would release Frieza and Cell.
Goku does as instructed, only for this to be revealed to be a trap, where Myuu and Gero jump through the portal to Earth, while closing it up behind them to trap Goku in Hell. The 17s then meet up and fuse together into Super 17, the Ultimate Machine Mutant that Myuu had envisioned, and proceeds to wreck the heroes. However midway through the fight, Gero is surprise that 17 disobeys his orders and betrays him, with Myuu revealing he reprogrammed 17 behind Gero's back to only obey him. Myuu tells Gero that his ambitions for conquering the Earth were too limited, and using Super 17 he intended to continue his subjugation of the galaxy. Myuu then gives 17 to order to kill, so Gero meets his second demise once again at 17's hands.
Eventually Goku returns to Earth and engages 17, with Goku fighting a losing battle to Myuu's delight. However when Myuu orders 17 to kill Goku, he is saved by the arrival of Android 18, 17's sister. 18 attempts to reason with 17 appealing to his humanity, which angers Myuu and insults 17 by declaring no one controls him. 17 agrees that no one controls him, which includes Myuu. 17 then turns and blasts Myuu, killing his creator.
Agency
This is the probably the main reason why he's never been proposed before. Baby reveals in a Motive Rant that he was the one who created Dr. Myuu, then programmed him to revive Baby by collecting lifeforce through Luud.
However after watching through those episodes, I believe this is no longer disqualifying.
First and foremost. The whole idea of Baby creating Dr. Myuu to begin with is very hard to make sense of. Baby did not have a functional body and was stuck in fetus form, so how on Earth could he have created Dr. Myuu? The main fan interpretation of this is, as Baby was created by Tuffle scientists and had the Tuffle King's memories imbued within him, this means he was speaking on behalf of the Tuffle people who may have created/converted Dr. Myuu. But even ignoring this theory and taking Baby's story at face value...
There is evidence throughout the series that Machine Mutants do not lack agency, and even when they are explicitly said to have programming, still have freewill and are able to make conscious decisions. Giru and Super 17 are both Machine Mutants and both are said to be programmed by Dr. Myuu to be loyal to him. However both manage to pull a Grew Beyond Their Programming to defy their creator.
So with this context, while Baby did say he "programmed" Myuu and gave him the plans for constructing Luud, I think we can safely reason that Myuu was in full control of his actions and still consciously chose to do that himself. It's merely that Baby planted ideas in Myuu's mind, where Myuu then voluntarily chose to bring to fruition. Further evidence for this is Baby punishing Myuu for failing and telling Myuu he "had no idea" of the truth, suggesting Myuu is not simply following Baby's step-by-step instructions.
But the most prominent evidence of all. Baby's programming on Myuu ended with Baby's resurrection (and Myuu's death). So by the time Myuu ended up in Hell, he is completely free of Baby's influence, yet is still continuing the same galactic/universal conquest plans of his own volition.
Heinous Standard
Now Baby was previously downvoted due to failing the heinous standard. As weird as it sounds, despite him technically being Myuu's boss/creator, Myuu actually manages to outdo him in both personal villainy and scale.
First off, Myuu in the past caused genocide of the inhabitants of planet M-2. This is fully explained through dialogue and showcased in a flashback. We also see the ruins of a destroyed city on M-2 in the present day.
He also delves into two unique niches including And I Must Scream and sentient lifeform experimentation. With him actually wanting the heroes alive so he could use their bodies to perform experiments. His "reconstructive surgery" is shown to consist of saws and lasers to cut apart living test subjects.
Then there's him being responsible for creating Luud, with the Toy Transmutation blatantly being And I Must Scream, considering that those turned into dolls remain fully conscious in inanimate bodies. While Baby does say he gave Myuu "the plans for creating Luud", it is still Myuu's conscious decision to implement this and use it himself.
Finally, it's emphasized several times Myuu aims for either the galaxy/universe depending on the translation. We already see what he does to two planets and he intends to spread this on a scale that can compete with Frieza.
Mitigating Factors?
The only thing to give me pause: Myuu's apparent care for Baby. When Baby is in danger, Myuu starts panicking and breaks down in tears, as well as referring to Baby with affectionate names calling him "beautiful" and "adorable".
But several other scenes suggest this might not be an issue after all.
First off, it is emphasized several times that Myuu's life goal is to create the Ultimate Machine Mutant which he intends to use to subjugate the galaxy. Baby was merely the first time he came closest to achieving this goal. When Myuu escapes after Baby apparent 'death', he gets over moping and goes right back to plotting to regenerate Baby again. This makes it seem like he was more upset at his life's work being ruined, than concern over his 'child' being killed if he's so quick to think about replacement.
We also see that General Rilldo, formerly Myuu's most powerful Machine Mutant was once given the same respect by Myuu too. But once Baby is unleashed, Myuu loses all interest and happily abandons Rilldo and Planet M-2's inhabitants. Trunks outright tells Rilldo that Myuu doesn't care about him and thinks of Rilldo as inferior.
Then we get to Myuu's return from Hell, where he has lost all interest in Baby and has instead fixated on Super 17 instead who he hails as the Ultimate Machine Mutant.
All this suggests to me that, Myuu's 'care' about Baby is as an extremely valuable possession and he was upset at it getting damaged, not as an actual loved one. Once he finds another Machine Mutant that he considers superior, he'll quickly jump ship and start obsessing over them instead.
Final verdict?
Put myself through watching GT to get this EP done. Really hoping he counts, lol
Edited by Snowy66 on Nov 21st 2023 at 12:45:47 PM
Gentle Laborer
Morb and Glyde
I'm not really comfortable voting on Snee tbh, considering the implications of her being previously downvoted for lacking heinousness and then her own effort-poster writing this new article that made her uber-evil.
Count me as abstain.
Caesar
I'll give Myuu a Yes all things in account, seems bad enough and his card for Baby seems like an easily-shiftable Psycho Supporter bit.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Goku Black
Oh right I remember this him and Gero were planning to take this scheme across the entire galaxy.
Dr. Myuu
@ ACW, yes, Planet of the Apes Koba and Nicol Bolas.
Basically villains who go out of their way to be as horrible as possible that their Freudian Excuse is moot even if they're like, very awful Freudian Excuses. The Alice situation doesn't sound like it to me.
To this post: No, I'm referring to the Nicol Bolas from Magic the Gathering, who also has a horrible enough Freudian Excuse, but is so bloody horrid that he counts anyways.
Edited by Mr-ex777 on May 26th 2023 at 12:19:51 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
glyde and Morbin time (he's actually a Composite Character with loxias crown who is a Hydra agent in comics. And who film milo is based on)
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."