Mohs Scale of Hardness Cleanup

Remove "very" from:

-For editors going to add examples, please explain why it is placed on some level and in what year it was very first released (for movies, television shows, and video games, it's generally the date listed by it on IMDb).

Edited by Nen_desharu on Jan 16th 2022 at 7:54:39 AM

I do agree with milder rape and more severe attempted rape being reverted to 7. That change did come very suddenly and I was away for awhile when it happened and i assumed it was discussed.

As for the post about protected groups, hate crimes would fall under general "sadism bonus" regardless of race or culture (being specific i think would be micromanaging and too identitarian to be objective if you ask me).

I would also like to note that many of the low tier examples are from the earliest versions of the scale, i think even before the addition of video games and whatnot (and predating my participation) may explain some discrepancies.

• For the record from the listed examples it seems level 4 in Videogames involves animations and sounds and relatively realistic situations as well as the small of blood (mildly noticable).

As for "the focus on blood" in Film, i do think "how graphic a squib is" is pretty iffy (i just go off the pre-existing listed examples ive watched); but several of us have added non-gore related conditions that effect an act over time (sadism, context, brutality, etc).

• Ive also noticed compound fractures and Eye Scream seem to be contested (at least its seems to stay 7 to 9); they both very in vividness (Id say the kid in Catch Me If You Can would be a 7 example and Burt Reynolds in Deliverance an 8) tho the description on level 9 mentions "exposed bone" which may cause confusion to those reading the lists (personally i think a 7 minimum would be a good home for it).

Now that we've dealt with some things, I'd like to mention another tidbit about the entry for Invincible on the Western Animation page. This part specifically:

"It's all a good example of contrast making things go up even higher on the scale. Between the Art-Style Dissonance and the first 35 minutes of the show's first episode, which is a hard 4 at most, the post-credits scene hits even harder."

No other entry mentions this at all, and it seems to imply that if the show had a dark and edgy art style and started off violent, it would only be level 9, which ironically itself contrasts with the rest of the entry trying to convince you that this is the most violent show on the history of Earth (even after I removed the opening of gushing)

The Lewandererz 602555 moved The Suicide Squad from level 9 to 10, changing the point about how it "would probably be a 10 if it wasn't comedic" to it saying that it still reaches that level even despite being comedic. And it also came with a gushy point about it making a fellow level 10 work look tame. Honestly, I noticed this user in general changing a bunch of level 9 works that mention being close to 10 to level 10, and putting up gushy points.

I vote to revert. I watched it, and it certainly was not as gory as a 10 level work.

Edited by callmeamuffin on Jan 21st 2022 at 8:22:45 PM

Not just that, but I believe that Suicide Squad is rated 14A in Ontario.

It’s also rated 16 in Germany uncut. Germany is notorious for being so strict on violence in films, and a "level 10 film" would usually either get an 18 rating uncut, or censored to hell for an 18.

We can further say that the edit can be reverted.

EDIT: And it was reverted. The discussion is now complete.

Edited by callmeamuffin on Jan 24th 2022 at 1:29:02 AM

Ok, so I've noticed that, with works that don't have descriptions of why they're on the level they're on and I haven't seen them, things like the BBFC website (I never lived in the UK but I still go there somewhat often), the IMDB parent's guide or sometimes even the TV Tropes page itself mentions things that seem much worse than the level they're on. Probably the two biggest examples are the live-action Fist of the North Star movie on Film and Batman: Gotham Knight on Western Animation. The former is on level 6, but is apparently very gory, and the latter is on level 5, but both Video Examples from it (the same clip actually) show an instance of something worse than level 5

I haven't seen either of those works, but the clip from Batman: Gotham Knight suggests that the work should be higher than a level 5. Since I haven't seen the movie, I don't know which level it should be transferred to, although level 7 seems likely, based on nothing more than that clip.

If a work is on a level that doesn't feel appropriate for it, it can probably be moved.

The entry for Berserk on Anime & Manga is a mammoth, all-consuming wall of text. It's practically unreadable without my brain turning off halfway through. I understand this series is known for its disgusting violent content, but even Braindead on Film - Levels 8 to 10 and Crossed on Comic Books don't get entries like this

I've never seen the show, but I certainly would not be opposed to dramatically shortening it.

So, The Marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack on Western Animation got added to level 9 and if it wasn't comedic, would have been level 10. Yeah...not buying it. It feels downright silly to say a kid's show is as violent as Felidae and would have been as bad as Invincible (2021) if it wasn't comedic. Something's telling me the scenes mentioned aren't that gruesome and graphic, otherwise Cartoon Network would not have allowed it to air at all

I mean Flapjack is gross, but being on the same level as Felidae and above Watership Down? Yeah that seems like a massive stretch.

Edited by Tonwen on Mar 4th 2022 at 11:40:42 AM

And it's even sillier when you factor in the Film - Levels 8 to 10, where the WA page is basically saying this show is worse than Pan's Labyrinth, Eastern Promises and Taxi Driver and on the same level as Saving Private Ryan and Scanners

Edited by KingofNightmares on Mar 4th 2022 at 9:48:53 AM

Or if you want to shift to another medium, it's apparently just as violent as the original Hotline Miami, which intentionally made its violence as awful and disgusting as possible in a 16 bit environment.

Yeah...the rabbit hole keeps getting deeper.

And I'm guessing this and this are one of the things mentioned about the black plague part.....yeah, this isn't remotely close to level 9. I don't want to have to watch the whole show just to determine a more appropriate placement though

If anything it should probably shift all the way down to a level 1 or 2, as the show never depicts any blood as far as I recall. I don't remember the scene of K'nuckles exploding, but I'd probably guess it was played for comedy and not nearly as graphic as they describe.

Apparently, some tropers exaggerate the violence in children's cartoons to make them more mature than they actually are.

Even the most vocal Moral Guardians don't exaggerate media violence as much.

So, dcasey98 has been scrutinizing violence against non-humans on existing entries, mostly on Literature, but also one entry on Film - Levels 0 to 7.

The thing is, one of the works reduced was Warrior Cats, where the violence is inflicted on cats, and the main page says that violence on animals that exist in real life is treated the same as violence inflicted on humans. And in regards to Alice in Wonderland (2010), it went from being a soft 7 to a 3 due to this clause, stating that a decapitation of an animated dragon doesn't make it graphic. Of course, this being mentioned, I do find it a bit odd that a modern PG movie is given a higher level than some R-rated movies, but level 3 is probably too low for a dragon being beheaded. And it in general brings to mind, how much levels lower does violence against monsters get compared to humans?

Violence against animals has always been a bit of a gray area, despite the main page saying that it should be treated roughly the same as violence against humans. I mean, does a non-sentient fly or other insect getting squashed deserve to be as high as a human getting crushed to death in a graphic way? I haven't read/seen either of the works that you brought up, so I can't respond intelligently, but, personally, I feel that carnage directed against non-sentient beings should generally be a little lower than violence against sentient organisms. It's tricky, and may need to be left up to troper discretion without too many hard-and-fast rules, but I'm definitely open to suggestions. That being said, level 3 does sound a little low for a work containing a dragon being beheaded semi-graphically, but I haven't seen the movie. I think that sentient, technically-non-human beings deserve to treated equally as humans, especially if humanoid in appearance.

Violence against villainous non-sentient monsters might need to rate lower than if it was a "cute," non-evil being, but I'm just spitballing here.

Violence towards anthropomorphic characters thus should be treated the same as towards humans.

They may be non-human animals on the outside, but they are practically humans on the inside.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Apr 21st 2022 at 6:45:17 AM

The entry for the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure manga on Anime & Manga bugs me. Now, I'm not actually familiar with the manga's contents, as most of my exposure to this franchise comes from my brothers showing me the anime, which the entry claims was censored, but that's beside the point. What I'm saying is, the entry seems to contradict itself, by at first calling the gore "highly detailed" but then saying that "despite not being detailed enough, it's cruel and brutal enough for this level"

So is it hyper-detailed or not? The fact that both points were made by separate users, one of them originally putting it a level lower, doesn't help,

I haven't seen or read the anime/manga in question, so I'm afraid I can't help you with that issue.

However, the latest Dr. Strange film might need to have its level settled. It's been on 9, 7, 8, and now 10, if I'm keeping track of things properly. I haven't seen the movie yet, but level 10 definitely sounds like a major exaggeration for it. Like I said, I haven't seen the motion picture yet, but it sounds like it could sit comfortably in the 7-8 region, but I really don't like guessing for works I haven't viewed. Context can be important, and the violence in the new Dr. Strange film sounds pretty fantastical and whatnot.

Luckily, I have seen it, and all I'm saying is, it is definitely not a level 10. I hesitate to even call it level 9. To say this movie is more violent than Cube (using it since I recently saw that, and no, Cube is not worthy of a level 10) is simply insane.

I'm going to go over these two scenes.

1: Gargantos' death. You can watch it here. The point is, while this scene is gruesome, there's also not much actual blood involved, and I'd argue the actual eye stabbing being bloodless takes some of the impact away from it. And that's without mentioning how Gargantos is not remotely human in appearance either, further taking the impact away from this. It's also an evil Generic Doomsday Villain monster that's attacking a city, so it's not like the audience is sympathetic to its suffering either. This scene is level 8 at absolute worst.

2: Black Bolt's death. You can watch it here, but skip to 0:49. Maybe I'm just jaded, but calling this death "gory" at all is a massive stretch. There is less blood shown in this death than the violence from A Fistful of Dollars, which sits comfortably at level 5. Sure, it's implied to be super gory, and it's definitely more morbid than anything in A Fistful of Dollars, but if implied gory details increased the scale that much, then every Shadow Discretion Shot death would be level 9 at least. And in general, to the editor who thinks this is bad enough for level 10, well, who's gonna tell them? It even contradicts itself by calling the scene gory but then saying "despite the general lack of gore it's horrific enough for this level" (paraphrased). And in general, it's jarring to go from "feet sliced off, slashed in the hands and face, disemboweled and then executed with a shot to the eye." to a Gory Discretion Shot PG-13 death and a relatively quick kill on a not remotely human monster. Combine that with the fact that the user who did this in general tends to increase things to level 10 while the entries use the exact same scenes without any new information, and I apologize for getting ranty, but this scene doesn't even deserve to be above level 7.

I say it should be either an 8 or even a hard 7, simply for the Gargantos death.

And about every other scene of violence? Well, there's not much else worth discussing. There is Zombie Doctor Strange, but the imagery there isn't any worse than Two-Face from The Dark Knight, which is level 7, and there's the death of Professor X, which you can see here, but it goes by very quickly and there's only red fog instead of blood and gore, not to mention it's immediately followed by us seeing him in the real world with his head intact.

Edited by KingofNightmares on Jul 12th 2022 at 3:59:46 AM

It seems someone else has already done the task of reducing the movie.