BoJack Horseman Clean-up -- Revision and Trope Misuse

Going through Wham Line (for reference, found in BojackHorseman.Tropes T To Z), it strikes me that these should really be on the Recap pages, since they're specific to the episodes they appear in. Most of them are ZCEs. A Wham Line is meant to be a line that dramatically changes the direction of a scene. There are only a few that are valid as written, most of them only having context insofar as they include a quoted line or two before the actual Wham Line to establish the direction the scene was going until the "wham":

• The Telescope: "I don't forgive you."
• One-Trick Pony: "No, you're fired."
• The Shot: "I fired her ass."
• What Time Is It Right Now: "I'm so tired of squinting."
• A Horse Walks Into Rehab: "I thought she would change after she had her baby"

The rest are either shoehorning or lacking in context.

• Season 4, Episode 4, "Bojack the Feminist". With a title like that, it's obviously a politically-themed episode with little to no bearing on the plot like "Brrap Brrap Pew Pew" or "Thoughts and Prayers," right? Wrong. Not only does this episode see the return of Ana Spanakopita, but she gives the tape of Bojack talking about New Mexico to Diane, revealing the secret Bo Jack had been keeping from his friends for years. This sets forward the conflict between Diane and Bo Jack for the rest of the season that would completely destroy Diane's trust in Bo Jack.

Right now this entry is still more cruft than context. Let's see if we can sift the wheat from the chaff:

With a title like that, it's obviously a politically-themed episode with little to no bearing on the plot like "Brrap Brrap Pew Pew" or "Thoughts and Prayers," right? Wrong.

Cruft. Delete.

Not only does this episode see the return of Ana Spanakopita

Why is this character returning a "wham"? If it's not, why are we talking about it?

but she gives the tape of Bojack talking about New Mexico to Diane, revealing the secret Bo Jack had been keeping from his friends for years.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. This episode reveals something that had been a secret. That sounds like something that could change the status quo.

This sets forward the conflict between Diane and Bo Jack for the rest of the season that would completely destroy Diane's trust in Bo Jack.

This establishes exactly how things change going forward. Great!

We covered Unintentionally Unsympathetic but I think the Unintentionally Sympathetic section has the same issues. None of the examples seem worth keeping.

• Sarah Lynn is very clearly meant to be sympathetic in her later appearances, even if she's initially played as a joke.
• The BoJack section I'm unsure about, but leaning towards cutting. As the title character, we mean to sympathize with him in some way, even if we understand he's an asshole. It also refers to a Designated Monkey entry that's straight-up wrong^note "Meanwhile, most of the other characters are free to do tons of comedic acts of violence and selfishness without any angst or consequences." Uh, Princess Carolyn, Diane, and Mr. Peanutbutter get called out for their shit all the time, and most secondary characters who do bad things aren't meant to be taken seriously to begin with. The show singles out BoJack because he's the main character who does a lot of very very bad shit.
• Todd's mother is portrayed as sympathetic once she appears in person. The entry reads more like a tirade against Todd. It's also kind of implied Todd had issues with his mom before she kicked him out.

I also highly doubt the Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy entry, as explained here. Honestly, this whole YMMV page feels like a result of very biased editing in certain parts.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 17th 2020 at 4:43:30 AM

Seconded on Unintentionally Sympathetic. All of those things are intentional as far as I can tell. Cut'em.

DIAA I could see an argument for; anecdotally I've definitely talked to people who have been turned off by how bleak the show is and how BoJack's progress as a character is a case of two steps forward, one step back (when it's not one step forward, two steps back). That's not a universal outlook by any means— a lot of the people who love the show love it specifically BECAUSE the fact that it's so bleak means that every little bit of hope feels earned, and I count myself among those— but it's not, like, unheard-of either.

On the flip side of the usual gushing problem, Thoughts And Prayers, specifically the YMMV page seems kind of complainy. And this is coming from someone who thinks the political episodes are some of the weaker episodes.

For starters, could some of the Critical Research Failure examples be moved to Artistic Licence – Law and Artistic Licence – Gun Safety? I'm not sure how many people noticed the discrepancies.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 18th 2020 at 8:13:47 AM

Courtesy link: BoJack Horseman S4E05 "Thoughts and Prayers"

I'll take a look and come back with some thoughts.

• Anvilicious: It's hard to argue that the episode's not anvilicious, but we don't need a three-bullet-point Wall of Text full of complaining, often only tangentially related to what Anvilicious even is, to make that case. Motion to cut this whole mess; if someone cares to make a more concise write-up, great. But what's there isn't even a good place to start, so better to start fresh.
• Critical Research Failure: The episode is satire, an intentional exaggeration; its purpose is not accurately and fairly depicting political points of view it disagrees with. Only the final bullet point has anything like a valid point to make, and I agree, that could easily be moved to Artistic License – Law.
• Don't Shoot the Message: I mean, it's a YMMV Audience Reaction, and one I've observed in the audience. It would be nice if it were reworded to be less complain-y, but otherwise it's a keep.
• Family-Unfriendly Aesop: I... don't think that's what the episode concludes at all, and it certainly doesn't read as pro-censorship. Cut.
• Harsher in Hindsight: Typical shoehorning. Cut.
• Padding: Examples Are Not Arguable. Cut.
• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: ZCE. Who's the character that's being wasted, and why is it a waste? Cut.
• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: TBH, I'm not sure what a good example of TWAPGP looks like; as far as I can tell its only use is bitching because the episode wasn't identical to some imaginary perfect episode that exists in people's heads. If I had my way these entries would be cut, but only because if I had my way every TWAPGP entry would be cut.
• Unintentionally Sympathetic: I have run into plenty of people that thought this episode was heavy-handed or its satire muddled, but I have never run into anyone who actually sympathized with the movie producers. Cut.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 18th 2020 at 5:09:40 AM

You forgot to mention the Unacceptable Targets entry. Is that an insta-cut?

I think the Harsher entry about Lisa Hanawalt could be valid since it at least has the specific connection to the Bojack crew, but this is also the first time I heard about it since she seemed to get out pretty safely.

But holy shit, is this page wanky. "The episode's intended moral is that media which glorifies guns is one of the main (if not the main) cause of real-life gun violence in America, which many viewers have said is grossly uninformed, if not insulting." Uh, no? There's a few jokes about the media glorifying violence, but the real joke regarding violent media is the Skewed Priorities about taking down media related to gun violence instead of doing anything to solve the systemic problem of gun violence. It never says that's the reason behind gun violence. The character who discovers a love for guns does so because it makes her feel safe, not because of any glorified media.

Also, there's so much complaining about how we don't get to see the opinions of the people making the movie, which is both 1) not entirely true (we see Courtney Portnoy's disappointment, and as an actress she's involved enough on the set), and 2) not relevant to the plot. Why complain that the entire A-plot is padding and then complain we don't get to spend time on completely new characters that only exist as counterpoints to a message?

This page is so negative in such a disproportionate way (most people I see don't even hate this episode, they just find it So Okay, It's Average or at worst having a muddled message) that I might crosspost it to the complaining thread if that's okay.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 18th 2020 at 8:55:57 AM

By counterpoints, do you mean strawmen? They’re barely even points, they’re more just rambling about how women are incompetent with guns, and other sorts of arguments the writers can easily take down.

Otherwise, that was an accurate statement.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 18th 2020 at 10:30:04 AM

I'm talking about what the page seems to want, which is to spend the episode having a two-sided debate rather than a plot. The strawmanning in the episode is eye-rolling but this seems like one of those TWAPGP entries that's just "this is what I would do with the basic concept."

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 18th 2020 at 9:34:07 AM

~Plasma Power - You're right, I missed Unacceptable Targets. The example text is all over the place and doesn't seem to have anything to do with UT. Cut.

Ah, thought you were talking about the characters and not the page itself

I've finished cleanup of Characters.Bojack Horseman The Horseman Himself through M-S. Edit: Finished the last folder too.

I cutlisted RealityEnsues.Bojack Horseman per the last page of discussion. I do still agree with mightymewtron that there might be legit examples that could be added, but the ones on the current page ain't it.

I also cut the Designated Hero and Author's Saving Throw shoehorning discussed on the last page.

Personally, I'd be fine cutting all of Ambiguous Disorder; a lot of it's REALLY reaching. I haven't been involved in that cleanup effort, though, so if anyone who has would care to weigh in further, I'm listening.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 19th 2020 at 12:49:16 PM

Whoa, let me actually go through the page to find any salvageable examples before cutlisting it.

• BoJack taking Sarah Lynn to the amusement park in "Prickly Muffin" might count because it's one of the moments BoJack explicitly relates to a sitcom (doing the "credits roll" with his hand) only to reveal their relationship isn't easily solved with a "having fun" montage and Sarah Lynn is an adult who does selfish things. But I'm unsure about that.
• The drugs giving the characters a ton of energy to write in "Downer Ending" might be valid because it's setting up a certain story convention (drugs giving people the energy to write original crazy shit), sending BoJack on an intricate self-exploration you expect to come out in his work, only to subvert it at the end by revealing it's all gibberish. But I'm not sure how much that expectation is really built up since we see them acting like stoned idiots beforehand?
• The paparazzi preparing to ruin BoJack with those photos might count for being a comedic bait and switch subverting a typical blackmail plot, but it's not really reality ensuing because the birds are idiots and ask for an unrealistically low bribe.
• The part about Diane taking hallucinogens and preparing for it to hit, only for her to realize it takes a while to kick in, probably does count.

...So yeah, the page probably can be cut, even with these on-the-line examples.

There's one other example that comes to mind that isn't listed: when BoJack tries to liven up the prom in "Escape From L.A." with his trademark dance craze, but everybody boos him instead of getting into it because they prefer their old music.

Ambiguous Disorder doesn't need to be cut in its entirety, but maybe it'd be better to just copy and paste the examples on the trope page because they're accurate, but much more succinct and not going to bizarre levels of armchair diagnosis. Either that, or just put the relevant examples on the respective character pages.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 19th 2020 at 9:30:41 AM

I think the person who is deleting entries of the Bojack Horseman character page should be doing more citation than ZCE, shoehorning and misuse. About two-thirds of the page is gone now. It feels insulting to the people that contributed to that love the show or at least appreciate it.

Mind, because so much was deleted, I'm only listing some highlights.

Did I add Jerkass Has a Point? No. But I believe the person who did follow the rules: they had the show itself acknowledge that Bojack's moments of this are legitimate, like when he calls out Neal for using his "hero" status to get a box of muffins and was corrupting the term, or that Diane shouldn't be trying to please her abusive family and he tells her she's being stupid. A third person pointed out that he accurately pegged Paige Sinclair as being Secretly Selfish, which the show later reveals. It's not fair to the person who wrote it that it's just deleted like "poof!" without even an explanation.

I put the entries for Character Development. Why? Because if you watch Bojack Horseman, he's a better horse, relatively speaking, than he was in the pilot.

• Bojack manages to part civilly with Princess Carolyn. In the beginning, they were having a toxic romance where Bojack was ignoring her desires for children and was cheating on her. They are able to dance at her wedding, where Bojack admits he wishes he had grown enough to be the guy to save her wedding but is able to acknowledge it's a fantasy, especially since Princess Carolyn married Judah several months ago.

• In seasons one-three, Bojack sleeps with anyone who will have him, including underage girls, his friends' partners, and the girl who considered him a father figure. This gets him in trouble, naturally, when the parents, friends, and drugs get involved. He also has a crush on Diane. Then she divorces Mr. Peanutbutter and hits on Bojack while drunk. What does the horse do? Not what he would have done in season one, which is sleep with Diane. He sets boundaries until she's in her right mind, and she admits that she needs a friend, not a rebound guy. In the end, he acknowledges that Diane doesn't owe him anything because he asked a lot from her. The old Bojack would have been clingy to her.

• To a lesser extent, Bojack...tries honeydew. He kept ranting about how he hates it. Then at Princess Caroyn's wedding, he takes the courage to try it, saying, "Not bad." It shows Bojack is willing to grow, to try things he thought he hated.

Bojack isn't perfect, mind. He's in jail, prone to his ego trips, and tried to restart Diane providing emotional labor. But he is much better and is less of an ass.

I put the entry for Bittersweet Ending, which later became a zigzagged Earn Yourhappy Ending. Bojack is not where he was at the beginning of the story, which is stuck in a rut and taking his only friends Todd and Mr. Peanutbutter for granted. He's also not in a better place necessarily, as serving time in jail and when he leaves he'll be homeless again, with his friends having moved on and Diane severing ties with him. But he's at least accepted his present situation, and knows that Todd and Mr. Peanutbutter will make some room for him in his life while having the choice to return to Hollywoob if he wishes while knowing it's not a bed of roses.

Everyone Has Standards - Bojack has established he has *some* standards. The reason why he picks a fight with Neal is petty, but he makes it clear that he dislikes how Neal is hiding behind a hero label to get what he wants. And he tells off Diane for trying to sleep with him when she's drunk and on the rebound. The horse is not perfect, but there are some principles at play.

More to follow.

"* At Least I Admit It: For all of his flaws and unsavory moments, BoJack never completely hides what he is or holds fantasies about what kind of person he is, being open about his addictions, problems and attitude about things."

This is true. Bojack bitterly tells Wanda that he doesn't pretend to be who he is and resents that everyone who gets to know him will leave eventually.

• Because You Were Nice to Me:
  • BoJack latches on to anyone who's even remotely nice to him, due to growing up without love or support. It's one of the main reasons why he becomes romantically obsessed with Diane, since she's the only one who knows everything about him and largely accepts him despite it.
  • He also did this unwittingly in the pilot. Todd convinces him to throw a party, which ended up being for a mob boss daughter's quinceanera. Said boss tells the horse he has made a friend for life, and can be seen watching out for him in prison when BoJack ends up in jail.

Both of these are supported by canon. Diane is the first person who asks about him and listens to his childhood, which would traumatize anyone. And this is established that the mob boss likes Bojack for pulling him out of a scrape.

• Ephebophile: Bojack's lust for younger women reached its extreme conclusion when he attempted (though failed) to have sex with 17-year-old Penny Carson, exploiting the fact that it was legal in New Mexico, and Penny was willing to do it with him. Though when Penny's mom Charlotte puts a stop to it, Bojack is immediately shamed as a pervert and kicked out of their home.

Yeah, this is canon. He nearly slept with Penny without regard to any thought that she was just a child.

Edited by Jayalaw on Aug 20th 2020 at 8:06:51 AM

Note: I didn't write any of these but I am defending them regardless.

• Took a Level in Kindness: After some false starts and failures, BoJack has become somewhat better on dealing with his problems and the people in his life in season 2. He is no saint yet and still has a long way to go, but for the most part, he is willing to consider others' opinions, tries to be more altruistic, treats Todd a little better and actually feels guilty about berating Mr. Peanutbutter once he realizes how much it has hurt him. He takes a harsh dive in the penultimate episode of season 2, but judging by its ending, the best might be yet to come for BoJack. Or not. Or perhaps yes.
  • In season 4, his daughter, and later revealed to be half-sister Hollyhock's visit and influence on his life brings back BoJack's warmer side, especially toward Princess Carolyn, Todd, and Beatrice (to a lesser extent). By the finale, he's still got a long way to go, but there's hope for it sticking yet...
  • After his (for him at least) ultimate low point, in season 6 BoJack, thanks to rehab and therapy, takes genuine strides towards becoming a better person with him being far more amicable and considerate to the people around him and actually being a positive influence on them, along with him finally remembering all the terrible things he's done and how to begin forgiving himself for them.

Bojack is relatively nicer at the end of the series than he was at the beginning. He's able to set boundaries with Princess Carolyn and Todd. He accepts that Hollyhock doesn't want him in his life, and neither does Diane. Bojack is also willing to give more than he takes.

• Too Clever by Half: All things considered, BoJack is geniunely good at being The Charmer. He is quite capable at sweeping people off their feet with his charisma and quick wit, leaving them with a strong first impression that he is a funny, likable guy who is the life of the party. His problem is that he too often relies on his charm alone to carry him through his problems.

Very true. This was what got him in trouble with the second interview. Bojack is a charmer, who knows how to be charismatic when the occasion arises, but Princess Carolyn senses that this interview is a trap.

• Unwitting Instigator of Doom:
  • Usually, BoJack's actions, well-intentioned or not, have serious repercussions for everyone around him. Some examples go from accidentally making Corduroy fall Off the Wagon and return to Erotic Asphyxiation, which causes his death and getting Kelsey fired for trying to invoke Doing It for the Art in the Secretariat Biopic as well as (indirectly) causing another one of her movie projects to fall apart through Princess Carolyn .
  • He surely has a hand in Sarah Lynn's issues: he spend her entire childhood giving her awful life advice, by 2007, when they meet again with her on the edge of starting her current self-destructing personality, when they meet again, she is happy, but he reveals that he just went to see her to ask her to guest star on his show, ultimately, in the season 3, he calls her to a bender doing hardcore drugs, which leads to her overdose and ultimate death

These are all canon. Bojack didn't *mean* for any of these things to happen. They still did because of his hand and Innocently Insensitive nature or lack of remembering his life isn't a sitcom.

Edited by Jayalaw on Aug 20th 2020 at 8:10:30 AM

The big problem with the character pages (and, indeed, the Bojack pages in general) is that they fail the "concise" part of Clear, Concise, Witty. Let's see what we can do about that:

• Character Development: BoJack is one character, not three. We don't need a triple-bullet-point Wall of Text to establish that one character undergoes Character Development. Can we make this more succinct? Rewrite
• Bittersweet Ending: This is a plot trope, not a character trope, and does not belong on the Character subpage. It already has an entry on the main page, making this one redundant. Redundant, cut
• At Least I Admit It: BoJack constantly hides his self-loathing, his substance problems, his abusive childhood, and anything else that might paint him in a negative light. Not An Example, cut
• Because You Were Nice to Me: BoJack is surrounded by people who are nicer to him than he (arguably) deserves, and heaps abuse and scorn on them, occasionally alternating with clingy behavior when he is feeling particularly low or lonely. Not An Example, cut
• Ephebophile: BoJack is not shown to be attracted to very young women in particular, and he is attracted to Penny specifically because she reminds him of her mother, who is near to BoJack's age. Not An Example, cut
• Took a Level in Kindness: Wall of Text, bad Example Indentation. Rewrite
• Too Clever by Half: Okay, fair enough. Restore
• Unwitting Instigator of Doom: Condense to one concise bullet point if we're treating this as a character trope, or move to recap pages if we'd like to treat each incident individually.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 20th 2020 at 8:46:27 AM

"I think the person who is deleting entries of the Bojack Horseman character page should be doing more citation than ZCE, shoehorning and misuse. About two-thirds of the page is gone now. It feels insulting to the people that contributed to that love the show or at least appreciate it." I was one of the people who started this project, because I love the show and I felt like the bloated, excessive character pages weren't doing it any favours. My first thought seeing pages that look like that is that this show has an obsessive fandom stuffing in non-applicable tropes to make something look "better" than it is

Bojack is one of my all-time favorite shows- not cartoon, favorite shows period. So I understand the need to point out the complexities of the show on the trope page, there's a lot to be discussed. I don't think this is a case of trying to make the show look better than it is (believe me, I've seen worse cases of that - just see the link in my signature), but a lot of people are putting analysis on the main page, and yes, sometimes reading too deep into things.

The problem is that this page is so bloated with minor, borderline speculatory details that the actual main aspects of the show get drowned out, and it's a slog to read. It's also not always up to date with recent seasons, giving the wrong perception of the show. Plus the YMMV pages are a mess, either full of Word Cruft or biased editing that doesn't reflect the general audience opinion at all.

However, they do have a point, High Crate: you seem to have a bad habit of going ahead and taking action before any consensus is reached, without providing a more in-depth analysis of why certain examples don't fit. In the Base-Breaking Character cleanup you deleted Diane's entry despite consensus agreeing it could stay, and you cutlisted the Reality Ensues subpage before consensus was reached on what examples, if any, could be salvaged. I understand this is a small cleanup, but that doesn't mean we need to take drastic measures without a more in-depth explanation on why certain examples don't fit.

If you want to cut large chunks of a page, post the examples here first for review so it doesn't look as jarring, or maybe make a Sandbox for the page you're reviewing.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 20th 2020 at 2:31:14 PM

There's just plain too much material to sort through to require a permission slip before making cuts. Where there's disagreement I'm happy to discuss it and reach consensus.

Speaking of reaching consensus, responding to the rest of ~mightymewtron's proposed Wham Episode rewrites and other thoughts from last page:

• That's Too Much Man: Looks good! It hits every point it needs to hit without getting overly specific or rambly. Great job!
• Bojack the Feminist: Still pretty crufty; I responded more fully to this one upthread.
• Angela: This reads like a plot synopsis. Can we pare it down to just the elements that are status-quo-changing?
• Stopped Show: I agree that Bojack going to rehab is a pretty big status quo change— accepting real help for his addictions is something he's resisted for a long time— but like many season finales in the show, this episode is more falling action than climax. The events in this episode are more fallout from the events of the last than "wham" material in and of themselves. I don't think it counts.

Edit: Also realized I forgot to respond to Jayalaw about Jerkass Has a Point. The problem with those entries is that they're plot tropes which are extremely specific to individual episodes, making them better suited to Recap pages than a Character page. Many of them are also pretty iffy: are we really going to get into the finer points of "dibs" on grocery-store muffins?

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 20th 2020 at 1:15:49 AM

Thanks for addressing most of my points! The "dibs" muffin thing is ridiculous but that's more Neal. It's more Bojack calling him a jerk for acting like he's a hero when he's being petty about a box of muffins and wanting fifteen minutes of fame. One thing I wanted to clarify was Everyone Has Standards. That wasn't addressed, since Bojack has some of them.

I would say that I think Paige is Unintentionally Unsympathetic (I added that entry) because she had no regard for how the story she broke would affect people. Obviously, she had good intentions — in her mind, Bojack led his former costar to her death and abandoned her when he was needed — but she didn't consider the consequences that would have ripple effects. Chasing down Penny and breaking into her house was completely out of line, especially since she and Max didn't notice they were causing Penny distress. The show wants her to be reasonable, but at various points she is unreasonable.

I don't think that's the case at all; insofar as a comic relief character like Paige can be said to be "meant" to be sympathetic or not, she's consistently shown to be self-absorbed, narcissistic, and thoughtless. I don't think the narrative particularly cares whether the viewer sympathizes with her; she's there to move the plot forward and ideally get some laughs.

Edited by HighCrate on Oct 21st 2020 at 8:53:43 AM

As far as Everyone Has Standards goes, the entry as written:

• Everyone Has Standards:
  • He [Bojack] despises people who hide behind heroic labels to walk over other people. This got him in trouble when he "stole" muffins from Neal.
  • While he did pursue Diane in season 1, he accepted that she didn't see him that way. Eventually. In season 5 when Diane starts drunkenly hitting on him, after divorcing Mr. Peanutbutter, BoJack says "no" and sets boundaries until she's in her right mind.

I question whether these are actually consistent moral "standards." Bojack is happy to embrace labels he hasn't earned, like when he accepts being labeled a feminist icon or basks in being called "courageous" for admitting to his addiction problems as a way to deflect blame for his many misdeeds. The fact that he calls out Neal for it is just a justification for being shitty, not a principled moral stand.

Likewise, he hardly has any kind of consistent "standard" about not sleeping with intoxicated people. He doesn't do it with Diane because he knows her very well and knows she would regret it, but he does it with any number of other people both before and probably after this particular incident.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 21st 2020 at 9:16:54 AM