Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Gwen.

Miloch.

You know now remembering Gwen I’ll have to give her a . She gets temperamental quite too often

Meh, I'll switch to a "no" for Gwen as well.

Wait what? Everyone's flipped back and forth several times. I'm not bitter or anything; I myself wasn't sure how to vote, but it seems like a bunch of people change their vote whenever a new argument comes up.

I feel like the breakdowns could have been expanded on in the effortpost, but other than that, nicely done.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 15th 2019 at 9:05:42 AM

Yeah, it was still a good EP for what it's worth.

While I don't think she counts personally and I'm going in good faith that people are switching based on their own realizations they're having internally, I can sympathize with HT being surprised at the flip-flopping whenever a new point or counterpoint pops up.

I'll admit the scene with the baby car seats legit slipped my mind while writing the EP. I have no idea WHY, considering it's one of the funniest things in the movie.

Also @ ANew I'm not sure what's going on with Cyrus so I just made this truncated version. I tried not to go overboard with the trimming but mind you I haven't played the game, so if I left out something crucial or made an error please feel free to correct it:

• Pokemon: Cyrus, leader of Team Galactic, seeks to use Dialga's power to recreate the world, stripping people of their free will and emotion to make it "perfect" for him to rule over. Aware of his own emotional short-comings, Cyrus keeps himself in check and works tirelessly to achieve his goal, often outplaying the heroes by several steps and reminding himself of the necessity of his evil acts for the sake of a better future. Charming enough to sway followers to his side, Cyrus and the hero Hareta form a mutual respect for each other's dedication and abilities and when Dialga and Palkia's battle threatens to destroy all of reality, it is Cyrus who comes up with a strategy to stop the catastrophe. Betrayed by Charon, Cyrus returns to lead his old followers against the traitor, with them returning to him out of sheer respect for his boldness and inspiration, in spite of Cyrus' own mistreatment and even attempts to kill many of them.

Note I don't write with potholes, similarly, I'll leave it to you to decide which you wanna put and where.

I'm in a more of a line of abstaining. But even then, Good job at the EP Hamburger Time! It's good to see a divisive candidate getting E Pd in this thread to make things a bit lively.

I do believe I'll have a much less contentious candidate tomorrow. Take my avatar as a hint...

Angels in America.

• Magnificent Bastard: Roy Cohn, of course. Downplayed insofar as all Roy's scheming can't cheat death itself, and parodied in that when we last see him, he's in hell and promising the devil that he can help him with the bad publicity.

Asian Saga.

• Magnificent Bastard: Lord Toranaga in Shogun combines The Chessmaster and Manipulative Bastard gloriously, playing an endless game of Xanatos Speed Chess when his plans get derailed. Both Toranaga and his nemesis Ishido had sworn to their late master that they would protect his young son until he was old enough to rule, but Ishido believes Toranaga intends to supplant the boy and become Shogun himself, and he's absolutely right. Toranaga proceeds to manipulate the entirety of Japan, pulling off a set of brilliant, almost impossible gambits to provoke Ishido into war, marginalize his rivals and allow Toranaga to move against them with full support of the populace. In the end, Toranaga's brilliance ends in him completely crushing his rivals and ascending to the position of Shogun with aplomb, with narration even stating that his victory "wasn't an Act of God. It was an Act of Toranaga."
  • Dirk Struan, Edward Gornt and Ian Dunross from the other books would fit this, too.
  • Lord Yoshi (descendent of Toranaga) does pretty well for someone in his twenties, and could rival his ancestor once he's got some more experience.
  • Hakim Gorgon - Hakim Khan following the death of his father - is well on his way to becoming one.
  • Roger Crosse from Noble House.

I'm pretty sure Toranaga's approved, but the rest? Thoughts?

I WILL BE JOYOUSLY ANTICIPATING ANYTHING RELATING TO THAT ORGASMIC GAME.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Oct 15th 2019 at 12:16:32 PM

Switching to abstain. Though I don't think we should let villains slip by who freak out over their plans being derailed especially if they are reduced to a pathetic wreck. There's a difference between Villainous BSOD (ruins their magnificence) and a Villainous Breakdown (majority of Villains, not disqualifying) which you'd be hard pressed to find an example that doesn't tick either of those boxes.

Edited by Klavice on Oct 15th 2019 at 9:38:32 AM

Going to keep my yes. Gwen's freak-outs doesn't sounds like they stop her from accomplishing her goals. That and she systematically recovers from them apparently.

"Villainous BSOD (ruins their magnificence) and a Villainous Breakdown (majority of Villains, not disqualifying)"

But Villainous Breakdown, in most cases is Disqualifying.

In fact I'd argue while Villainous BSOD in some cases is less disqualifying. As that could easily show a more human side to the Villain by having them show deep regret over something horrible.

Edited by Kylotrope on Oct 15th 2019 at 10:58:28 AM

I agree. Villainous BSoD can shut down a villain but doesn't cause a freak out. If anything, a Villainous BSoD is more preferable for a Magnificent Bastard because it still shows control over emotions. Villainous Breakdown is the loss of control of said-emotions.

Still abstaining on Gwen. While her freak outs detract from her alleged magnificence is YMMV, however as many people have stated there's no somewhat counting you either are or you aren't. Half hearted examples just aren't getting my full support.

Most of the villains we've upvoted that have had V Bs have almost immediately recovered from them. This seems to have a lasting impact on Gwen. I appreciate the effortpost HT, but I cannot vote this up. At the same time she possesses a lot of the qualities an MB should have but doesn't go above and beyond which doesn't sell me.

I do have a question though. If the way a villain is defeated or if they have some sort of breakdown or have their plans crumble around them, if that is silly would that detract from their magnificence? Simon Keyes for example gets the absolute shit beaten out of him by animals, but I doubt it changes the fact he controlled everyone and it's more a funny quirk all AA villains have to have, a funny breakdown even if they're not actually breaking down.

For Gwen:

I think people are really blowing, especially the car seats, way out of proportion. That. . . that really doesn't even qualify as a freak-out. Here's the bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80gv4tVYn9w

It's confusing instructions for a bunch of things meant to be childproof in a room full of screaming babies on a timer before the floating building they're in plummets to the ground while a bunch of sidekicks are trying to muck up the plan. Being in a hurry makes total sense, and being in a hurry leads to mistakes.

I think more to the point: does someone having an associate who is occasionally more helpful/useful than the character themself disqualify them from MB status?

to Gwen

Still voting to Gwen. Her freakouts are very short-lived and Played for Laughs above all else.

My first one.

What's the work?

BattleTech, a tabletop/video/miniature game/novel series (okay, there was also a cartoon, but we don't talk about that) in which giant stompy 'Mechs shoot each other in the face.

In the future, humanity has expanded out from Terra to colonize a swath of space known as the Inner Sphere. Five Great Houses hold most of the territory, if you picture the Inner Sphere as an analog clock (if anyone still remembers those), they are: From twelve o'clock to three o'clock, the Draconis Combine (House Kurita), from three o'clock to about five-thirty the Federated Suns (House Davion), from about five-thirty to about six-thirty the Capellan Confederation (House Liao), from six-thirty to about nine o'clock the Free Worlds League (House Marik), and from nine to noon the Lyran Commonwealth (House Steiner). The Inner Sphere was ruled for a long time by the Star League in a golden age of peace, justice, prosperity, and scientific advancement (at least, that's how most people remember it). Until decidedly non-magnificent bastard Stefan Amaris killed the First Lord of the Star League and his entire family, going down in history as Amaris the Usurper (invoking Amaris' name, depending on company and inflection, is the same as invoking either Hitler or Satan). The just-generally-magnificent General Aleksandr Kerensky of the Star League Defense Force saw this, said "aw hell no," and led the SLDF on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge through the Inner Sphere, culminating in kicking Amaris' ass off Terra and straight to hell. The heads of the Five Great Houses got together to decide who should take up the mantle of First Lord of the Star League. Perhaps predictably, each believed himself the only qualified candidate, and in the end the only thing they could agree on was to disband the SLDF, each Lord apparently hoping the bulk of it would join him so he could steamroll everyone else. General Kerensky saw this, said "aw HELL no" and pulled a Screw This, I'm Outta Here with almost the entire SLDF, leaving the Inner Sphere for parts unknown. His role in the story is quite obviously over.

The Great Houses, now the Successor States, began fighting a series of Succession Wars that nearly clubbed them back into pre-spaceflight, each trying to conquer the others and become First Lord of a new Star League. On Terra, ComStar arose to guard technology and knowledge, and morphed into a quasi-mystical religious order with schemes to let the Successor States bludgeon themselves insensate and then step in to "save" them, making themselves rulers of a new Star League. And the SLDF, having found some habitable worlds well outside the Inner Sphere, were reorganized by Aleksandr's son Nicholas into the Clans, basically eugenics-practicing Spartans Up To Eleven in giant robots, who would eventually invade the Inner Sphere to try and reestablish the Star Leauge (is the First Lord's throne made of solid crack or something?)

Who is the candidate? What do they do?

Hanse Davion became First Prince of the Federated Suns in 3013 after the death of his older brother Ian in battle. He did what no other Successor State ruler had done before: made peace overtures to the other Successor Lords. The only one to take him seriously was Katrina Steiner, Archon of the Lyran Commonwealth, and pretty soon an Arranged Marriage was struck between Hanse and Melissa Steiner, Katrina's daughter and heir. This caused the other three Successor Lords to shit a collective brick for a few reasons. Most obviously, this merger would put about half the Inner Sphere under Hanse Davion's control, bigger than all territorial gains in the previous three Succession Wars combined. Second, the Lyran Commonwealth has the best industrial base in the Inner Sphere, maybe tied with the Free Worlds League. This is in fact the only thing keeping the Lyrans in the Succession Wars game, as their military is riddled with "Social Generals" and displays routine bouts of staggering incompetence. The FedSuns, however, have one of the strongest militaries in the Inner Sphere, thanks in part to a warrior culture second only to the Draconis Combine (Feds vs. Dracs is basically English Knights vs. Japanese Samurai in giant robots). Marrying the Lyrans' industry to the FedSuns Proud Soldier Race was a nightmare for everyone else, so much so they formed a pact to curb any aggression from the burgeoning Federated Commonwealth.

Hanse and Melissa's wedding on Terra in 3028 was attended by everyone who's anyone in the Inner Sphere, including the other Successor Lords (probably the only time the holders of those titles had been in the same room since the fall of the Star League). At the reception, as Hanse fed his new bride a piece of wedding cake, he spoke the words that started his path of Magnificent Bastardry:

Hanse: Wife, in honor of our marriage, in addition to this morsel I give you a vast prize. My love, I give you the Capellan Confederation!

Thus began the Fourth Succession War.

Hanse had been laying the groundwork for this for awhile. He'd installed not one, but two moles as top intelligence advisers to Maximilian Liao, Chancellor of the Capellan Confederation, and mercilessly used incomplete, faulty, or outright false intelligence with blitzkrieg attacks and combined arms tactics to curb-stomp the Capellans. In one of his best moments, the New Avalon Institute of Science (the first research university established in the Inner Sphere in centuries, founded by Hanse) had developed a new Triple-Strength Myomer which gave BattleMechs three times normal strength, but would dissolve completely in the presence of a certain gas. Hanse had the formula leaked to the Capellans, let them upgrade a substantial number of their 'Mechs with the tech, then shelled them with artillery loaded with the gas, turning countless tons of cutting-edge war machines into broken toys.

In the end, Hanse claimed half the Capellan Confederation, gave a piece of it to Candace Liao, Maximilian's oldest daughter (who'd basically defected) as the micro-state the St. Ives Compact, and destroyed what little of Maximilian Liao's sanity remained, allowing his just-as-nuts younger daughter Romano to kill him and become the new Chancellor. Hanse's gains were so stunning ComStar grew worried he might actually win a Succession War, so they enforced a communications interdiction on the Federated Commonwealth (as the only ones who knew to build, maintain, and operate hyperpulse generators, they can do that). But Hanse had rediscovered a different Subspace Ansible which allowed him to continue his interstellar war, meaning it was ComStar's turn to defecate masonry.

Satisfied with his gains, Hanse ended the Fourth Succession War, but soon turned his sights on the Draconis Combine in 3039. Trying the same tricks (but without basically total control of the Combine's intelligence network) he was turned back by Theodore Kurita, head of the Draconis Combine Mustered Soldiery. Theodore would later admit he'd basically been bluffing, using his best units to both bog down Hanse's blitzkrieg and launch a blitz of his own into FedCom space, hoping to shock Hanse into backing down. If it hadn't worked, Hanse could have basically waltzed all the way to Luthien.

Then, in 3050, the Clans invaded. After a year of taking worlds in the Lyran half of the Federated Commonwealth, the Draconis Combine, and the Free Rasalhague Republic (formerly the Rasalhague District of the Combine, now an independent mini-state) the Clans retreated after their leader was killed. A temporary lull, but the mercenary unit Wolf's Dragoons used the time to gather the heads of the Successor States on their world of Outreach, where they could plan how to resist the Clans.

Hanse made great showings during the Outreach conferences, first burying the hatchet with Theodore Kurita over their mutual respect of each other as WorthyOpponents. The two even made a completely informal, just-between-you-and-me nonaggression pact, Hanse promising not to send his troops into Combine space so long as the Clans remained a threat, letting Theodore shift troops up to the Clan front. But most definitely his most magnificently bastardish moment came when negotiating with Thomas Marik of the Free Worlds League. The Lyran industrial base was tied up recovering from early invasion losses and shifting troops to respond to the Clan threat, so it was up to the FWL to manufacture Dragoons-designed upgrade kits to let the Inner Sphere forces cut down on the Clans technological superiority. Thomas was understandably not keen on basically manufacturing weapons for his long-time enemies, and tried to wring every last bit of currency he could out of them. Hanse decided to cut through the bull by offering Thomas the life of his son. See, young Joshua Marik had leukemia, and the best doctors in the FWL agreed it was a matter of when, not if. But Hanse has the New Avalon Institute of Science, and if Joshua could be successfully treated, it would be there. Thomas outright calls him a bastard for this, but Hanse replies he doesn't much care how he goes down in history, so long as there's history for him to go down in. Hanse also institutes Project Gemini, a plan to replace Joshua Marik with a Body Double should he perish. Notably, this isn't an attempt to put his own puppet on the throne of the Free Worlds League, but just to buy time and keep Marik-built upgrade kits coming should Joshua expire before the invasion ends.

Finally, as the Clans renew their invasion, a massive joint force of Clan Smoke Jaguar and Clan Nova Cat moves on Luthien, capitol of the Draconis Combine. By all projections, should Luthien fall, the Combine will collapse in short order. Hanse would have to invade the Combine basically in self-defense to meet the onrushing Clans, and visions of crushing his nation's most hated enemy dance in his head. As the Clans move closer to Luthien, more ships enter the system, belonging to the storied and dreaded mercenary units the Kell Hounds and Wolf's Dragoons. They aren't there to attack Luthien, but to help defend it. After all, Hanse promised he wouldn't send HIS troops into Combine space.

On June 17th, 3052, as the Clan Invasion ended in a cease-fire, Hanse Davion died of a heart attack at the age of 69. He had been suffering minor chest pains and arm numbness for some time, but thought nothing of it. The triggering event is implied to be a message from Sun-Tzu Liao, informing Hanse that he had taken the Chancellorship of the Capellan Confederation from his mother (who had been killed by Candace Liao in retaliation for Romano sending an assassin to kill her and her husband, Justin Allard, for their parts in the embarrassing defeat of the Capellans in the Fourth Succession War) and his engagement to Isis Marik, Thomas' legitimized bastard daughter and heir should Joshua die. The news that two of his enemies could be uniting, plus the revelation that Sun-Tzu is the insanely dangerous kind of Liao (as opposed to the dangerously insane, like his mother and grandfather) plus the stress of the Clans plus just being the ruler of the largest state in the Inner Sphere finally took its toll.

Is he magnificent? A bastard? TOO much of a bastard?

He's definitely magnificent, his in-universe Red Baron is "The Fox," and not just because he has red hair. And he's definitely a bastard, as proven by the whole Fourth Succession War. The thing with Joshua Marik might be a Moral Event Horizon, but even so, he's not being callous about it. The Clans are an existential threat, and if he has to play dirty to keep the Inner Sphere turning, he can live with it. Notably, Thomas is openly hiding behind the pretext that he doesn't rule in perpetuity (ha) and has to answer to his people to wring concessions for producing the upgrade kits. But most important are his interactions with Theodore Kurita on Outreach. The Kuritas and Davions have a long, bloody history and the occasional massacre fueling an intense hatred between the two nations. But these two men have fought each other, understand each other, respect each other, and recognize the greater threat. Hanse is a bastard, but has a sense of honor. When it suits him.

Hanse is a beloved ruler to his people, charming and affable. This is most clearly shown when he meets the quillar farmer parents of his son, Victor's, academy roommate, and speaks to them not like a liege to his subjects, but like his new best friends. Above all, he's a good father to his and Melissa's children (though his daughter Katherine would pick up none of his magnificent traits, but all his bastard ones and then some).

Verdict?

Hanse Davion should be one of the defining examples of this trope.

Edited by ErikModi on Oct 16th 2019 at 11:38:02 AM

Yes to Hanse.

Hanse

Abstaining on Gwen on account of never seeing Sky High. That said, the frustration with the babies thing doesn't look anywhere close to disqualifying. It's just a medium amount of frustration at directions.