During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Thug.
@ some, Yeah I don't think you really venture there too often but Dacey's been helping out there for a while.
This work?
Kingpin: Life of Crime: The criminal known only as "Thug" is a ruthless, calculating killer out for revenge on the mob lieutenant who wronged him. Having been beaten by Nikki Blanco's men and left in Skid Row, Thug vows revenge against Nikki and his associates. Working with individuals wronged by the syndicate, Thug proceeds to kill off large numbers of gang members on the payroll of the Kingpin, Nikki's boss. Allying himself with Big Willy in the wharf, Thug helps Willy take control of the district from the Kingpin before eliminating the Kingpin's lieutenants in Steeltown and the railyards. Arriving in Radio City, Thug enlists the help of the Jokers gang in order to further cause havoc on the Kingpin's operations in the city. Assaulting the Crystal Towers where the Kingpin runs his syndicate, Thug kills Nikki and the Kingpin himself, successfully getting his revenge and inheriting the Kingpin's criminal empire while making it more profitable than ever.
Yes to Thug.
Okay, again, sorry to pester, but the DPS quote about Guts is a vote away from keeping and I'd like more opinions.
Yes to the Thug
No to Frightengale
Here is the Poison Ivy write up:
- Batman Unburied: Poison Ivy was born Pamela Isley and her father discovers she is immune to poisons. Poison Ivy's father experiments on her until she kills him and takes his fortune and joins grade school. Poison Ivy travels to Palestine to interact with the world's oldest tree and killed her professor who tried to force himself on her. Bruce Wayne takes the tree and moves it to Gotham. Poison Ivy is sent to Arkham and convinces the administrator Hugo Strange to become her partner. Strange and Poison Ivy turns an inmate Cornelius Stirk into a Serial Killer to distract Batman. Poison Ivy kidnaps Bruce Wayne and convinces the world he died, in order to get the key to Bruce Wayne's vault and get access to the tree. Poison Ivy mind controls Vicky Vale and has Vale try to kill Batman with a poison kiss. Poison Ivy plans to use the power of the tree to kill of two-thirds of humanity so the reminder of humans can talk to plants and be one with nature.
Woagh
Write up done! :)
The Rise of Kyoshi: Jianzhu was the mentor and friend to the deceased Avatar Kuruk. When the Yellow Neck rebellion rises, a rebellion headed by bandits, Jianzhu tricks them into digging their own graves and then buries them alive. Jianzhu then becomes the mentor to Yun, the supposed new Avatar. Having his doubts about the true identity of the Avatar, he leads Kyoshi and Yun to a cave and leaves Yun to die at the hands of a dark spirit. Afterwards to cover his tracks, he poisons his rival politicians and sages, dosing himself in order to avoid suspicions. Upon achieving this, he uses his ties to track down Kyoshi. Once he finds her, he drugs both Kyoshi and her girlfriend Rangi, kidnapping the latter. When confronted by Kyoshi, he puts up a formidable fight only to die at the hands of the unpredictably resurrected Yun.
Sure to the Thug.
Speaking of thugs, my first of five Warcraft candidate in this coming batch is one of the greatest examples of From Nobody to Nightmare in the franchise. Remember a ways back when I did one Vanessa VanCleef who came to lead a vast criminal syndicate following the death of her father in one the earliest dungeons from World of Warcraft? With some ancillary information to help flesh out his personality and motives, let me present the man himself.
Who is Edwin VanCleef?
Edwin VanCleef, the Defias Kingpin, was perhaps the greatest threat to the human kingdom of Stormwind in the earliest days of the MMO. Edwin was trained in the roguish arts in his youth but chose the life of a mere stonemason to better support his family, and he was eventually elected their leader for his powerful charisma and refusal to back down from ensuring his men got their fair share. His Stonemason's Guild performed most of the heavy labor in rebuilding the city of Stormwind after its destruction in the First War at the hands of the Orcish Horde. When the city's nobility refused to pay what was owed, they disbanded the Guild when Edwin spoke out demanding payment and he started massive riots in the streets in retaliation. Once such riot accidentally led to the death of young Queen Tiffin Wrynn and King Varian began cracking down hard on the riots.
Edwin rallied his followers and fled to the plains of Westfall to escape the King's wrath, and began training his men in the arts of stealth and subterfuge to lead a guerilla war against Stormwind. Thus, the Defias Brotherhood was born. Wearing their iconic red bandanas, Edwin began recruiting the desperate and the outcast from society to swell the ranks of the Defias into an army to call his own. Edwin would choose the Deadmines, an abandoned mining network, as his headquarters while he sent the Defias out to various places in the kingdom to cause chaos and further spread thin the already overextended militia. His bandits drove off most of the farmers in Westfall deriving the kingdom of most of its food, and made alliances with the gnolls and kobolds of Elwynn Forest and ordered them to capture the farms and mines there for Defias use. Edwin cleverly also made contact with his former right hand Bazil Thredd who was arrested in the riots, and worked with him to cause prison riots in the Stockades in the capitol to distract from his operations elsewhere.
Edwin's ambitious schemes even worked their way into the very heart of the nobility itself. Using a contact made in the House of Nobles, Edwin had the army look the other way in regards to the Defias's ever bolder operations. This culminated in Edwin making contact with Lady Katrana Prestor, in reality the Black Dragon Onyxia, and helping to plan out and arrange the kidnapping of King Varian Wrynn himself. Edwin used a string of agents to smuggle Varian out of human lands, through the dwarf kingdom of Khaz Modan, and finally across the sea to the land of Kalimdor where his agents handed him off to the naga of Dustwallow Marsh. With the army stretched thin and the king gone, Stormwind was weak enough for Edwin to unleash his master plan. Allied with the Bloodsail Buccaneers pirates, Edwin had a massive and heavily armed ship constructed in the heart of the Deadmines he named the Juggernaught. Aboard this ship he would lead a great strike from the sea against Stormwind intending on casting down the House of Nobles. Alas, his plans end when a party of adventurers would invade the Deadmines and cut off his head, but his legacy and ideals would live on his daughter...
Is he magnificent?
While the players don't get any direct interaction with Edwin outside his boss battle, supplementary material from in-game and in books fleshes out his personality and ambitions. They paint him as a shrewd and utterly determined man with the charisma and intellect to found a massive criminal enterprise and nearly bring the greatest human nation to its knees. It's all rather impressive for what amounts to the Starter Villain for the Alliance players.
Is he a bastard?
While a man with understandable grievances, Edwin still terrorized and harassed a large number of innocent people throughout the kingdom. He's easily called a bastard.
Final Verdict?
All in all, I thinking as easy a as his daughter Vanessa.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jun 22nd 2022 at 9:32:06 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Professor Gigachad
What do you mean your first Warcraft character? Haven't you proposed several before?
Edwin VanCleef either way.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 22nd 2022 at 9:24:44 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I specifically just mean the first of five in this batch I'm about to do.
Sure to Edwin and Thug
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Frightengale, upon refreshing that episode she just doesn't seem to do enough.
Though on the topic of Miraculous, I've been thinking of reassessing a current keeper for a while now. And yes it was one that I EPed. Dude in question is Timetagger, here's his EP:
- Timetagger is a mysterious Akumatized villain from the future, revealed to be a grown-up Chris Lahiffe. Sent back in time by the future Hawk Moth to acquire the Miraculouses from Ladybug and Cat Noir, Timetagger uses his powers to send people into the past where they always end up altering history. Timetagger is able to constantly evade the heroes through use of Teleport Spam, and holds the upper hand against fellow time-traveler Bunnyx despite their identical powers. Timetagger also toys with Hawk Moth's emotions by revealing he is not the Hawk Moth of the future. His defeat necessitates the intervention of Future Ladybug and Cat Noir, proving him to be one of the most difficult villains they have ever faced.
Now there's no doubt that Timetagger is a very smart and competent villain, and has the confidence to match. But one thing I think I overlooked last time is his attitude sometimes verges on Smug Snake territory which is only apparent at the end. Ladybug asks him for one last favor before their defeat, which he grants as a seemingly Pet the Dog moment. But the problem is he only did so with the utter belief that nothing she could do could beat him.. leading to his defeat at the hands of Future Ladybug and Cat Noir. Now if Timetagger were to ever return for a future episode (quite possible given how many returning villains we've had) and manages to recover from this slipup he could easily make it again. But for the time being, him ending on this just seems to be too poor an outing.
So yeah, I think he may need to be cut
Edited by Snowy66 on Jun 23rd 2022 at 10:50:06 AM
Thug and Edwin
Keep House
Frightengale
Cut Tinetagger
Yes to Thug and Edwin.
Gonna have to agree to cut Timetagger.
Edited by Klavice on Jun 22nd 2022 at 11:37:36 AM
to Edwin
Cut Timetagger
for Cal, Zephyr, Edwin, and Thug
for Frighteningale.
Keep House.
Cut Timetagger
Showtime!
to Edwin
Professor Gigachad
I found this fic and It has given me two possible MB's and a CM so let's start with one on the MB side.
What's the Work?
Mario & Luigi: Darkest Timeline is a fic released in 2021 based on the Mario & Luigi series by, well actually I don't know who made this fic because the fic is orphaned. Anyway, it follows Mario and Luigi travelling to the titular Bad Future along with Bowser, and Bowser is the one we will be talking about.
Who is the Bowser and what does he do?
First of all, I should mention there are two different versions of Bowser, the past one and the future one. The Future version of him doesn't count as he is too much of a pawn, I am only proposing the past version of him.
Bowser we can presume is the same as he already has been through the series until now. Bowser before the fic learned about a spy in his army. He takes advantage of this by feeding the spy false info that he is leading his army to attack Peach’s castle and kidnap her. Bowser's true plan is actually to steal the time machine from Professor E. Gadd inside his lab from Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time. This distraction works well mostly but the Mario Brothers figure it out and rush over to E. Gadd's lab.
Bowser has however already gotten it working and is seconds away from jumping to the past in an effort to eliminate the Mario Brothers once and for all. Mario and Luigi get into a fight with Bowser and during which, they all end up in the time machine and end up accidentally transported to the future. Bowser gets separated from the Mario Brothers and learns that this is a future where he was able to conquer the entire Mushroom Kingdom. He heads over to meet his future counterpart in order to learn more.
Bowser meets his future counterpart but finds some of the details of what is going on very suspicious like him thinking the Mario Brothers killed Peach. Bowser also learns that his future counterpart is working with a demon and after talking with Future Luigi is able to deduce that this demon has been manipulating everything.
When the rebels take down Emperor Bowser, our Bowser tells the rebels the truth of what is going on, the demon, who is actually Mephistopheles has been manipulating everything to cause this war. Mephistopheles shows up and confirms this, he also offers Bowser the same deal he offered his future counterpart but Bowser has learned how pointless his goal to conquer the Mushroom Kingdom is and refuses. He then helps the Mario Brothers take Mephistopheles down and kills him himself and then returns home admittedly that he respects the Mario brothers.
Is he Magnificent?
I would say he is. He is an intelligent schemer who in the opening tricks the Mario Brothers by feeding their mole bad information. When arriving in the Bad Future he is able to figure out that the demon is responsible for anything by putting all the pieces together and deducing it, something which he is completely correct about. He has the planning, he is also a quick thinker and shows manipulation skills with his opening gambit.
He is also quite a friendly villain much like his canon counterpart he respects Mario and Luigi as enemies, is pretty affable in general, and does have some level of morals. He also pulls off the pretty badass task of being able to resist freaking Mephistopheles' deal.
Is he a Bastard?
Well, this is still a version of Bowser. In addition to having all his canon crimes he also tries to at first use the time machine to try and kill the Mario Brothers, and does still have the goal to conquer the Mushroom Kingdom at first. He is also the one who killed Mephistopheles by setting him on fire which I mean makes sense considering the guy but setting him on fire may be a bit much, not sure how much that means though.
Bowser in this fic isn't anywhere near bad enough though. His deeds are very little compared to even someone like Future Mario he also has his redeeming traits and actually goes through some Character Development and learns that trying to conquer the Mushroom Kingdom is pointless. Though one thing I will mention is he doesn't redeem himself exactly the fic ends with him getting a Hazy-Feel Turn where he is changing his life and giving up on his goal, but it's unclear how much he will change.
Overall?
Solid Keeper.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I'm a hard not inclined to take "brutally kills a CM" as bastard points in anyway, torturing Darby wasn't what got Clyde listed after all. Otherwise he seems good though, so yes there and cut Timetagger sadly.
Oh yes to Edwin too.
Edited by 43110 on Jun 23rd 2022 at 1:18:35 PM
The Moron
Bowser seems like a yep.
Alrighty, one last Dead Rising potential. This is one that I previously dismissed because of his death, but looking it over closely, I think I was too hasty. Let's talk about one of the villains from Dead Rising 2.
Who is Raymond Sullivan? What does he do?
Sullivan presents himself as the man in charge of the Fortune City bunker, in charge of ensuring that the bunker is secure and there's no infected inside. He's... not great at his job, yelling at Chuck when he brings Katey inside (even though Chuck pretends to have Zombrex for her) and fully buying into the frame job on Chuck in the beginning of the game, though he compromises - as long as Chuck brings survivors to the shelter, he can stay, though if he doesn't prove his innocence before the military arrives, Sullivan won't intervene on his behalf. He's later present when Chuck brings TK back and advocates killing him, later on reveals that the military will firebomb the city after the military rescue op fails, and then even gets knocked out by TK during the Safe House Breach. Overall, a Mr. Exposition who is otherwise fairly incompetent at his job. That all changes when Rebecca Chang uses a satellite phone to call her news station regarding Phenotrans' role in the outbreak and Sullivan immediately executes her on the spot.
In reality, Sullivan is actually on Phenotrans' payroll, and he reveals that Chuck was supposed to die during the outbreak, not make it to the shelter and clear his name. While he gathers up the evidence against Phenotrans as well as the phone that can call for help, he reveals that he started the Outbreak, but before he can shoot them all, Stacey comes out of nowhere with a bat. While he fights her off, Chuck gets the gun in the scuffle, so he flees to the Yucatan Rooftop with the evidence and phone to call for evac. Chuck confronts him, where Sullivan reveals that he blew up the cages and framed Chuck, causing the outbreak, but gets offended when Chuck says it was all for money - going so far as to reveal that while TK was paid for his role in the outbreak, he got greedy, and his robbing spree was in no way connected to Phenotrans. In reality, Sullivan did all this because one of the main ingredients in Zombrex is Queen Bees, which can only be harvested from live zombies. With the number of people infected around the country, including some of this "country's best" like doctors, politicians, and CEOs, outbreaks are a necessary evil to ensure a constant supply of Zombrex to keep them alive, with Fortune City being an acceptable loss. This makes Chuck realize that Phenotrans also caused the Vegas Outbreak - and thus, his wife's death as well as his daughter's infection - and a fight breaks out.
The fight is absolutely brutal. Sullivan is able to disarm Chuck both at range with his gun and close up with his hands, being a masterful close-range fighter with an uppercut so powerful it can go full HP to One if done right, as well as tactically calling in fire support from the AC-130 sent to pick him up that's flying around nearby. However, Chuck eventually winds up, but the gunship fires once more and knocks him over. Sullivan grabs the evidence and phone while he's incapacitated and releases his skyhook, making one final remark that they're the good guys instead of Chuck - but Chuck, being the brilliant quick thinker that he is, handcuffs his waist to a nearby pole, and when the AC-130 snags his skyhook, he's ripped in half, taking the evidence with him but leaving the phone for Chuck to call for help from the outside world.
Is he Magnificent?
Sullivan pulls an Obfuscating Stupidity act to act as a mole with nearly flawless results. He frames Chuck for the outbreak himself, acts as a doddering and volatile officer to hide his nature (with no one suspecting him until it's too late), manages to cause a breach of the Safe House with no one knowing he did it (and even pretends to have been knocked out during the event), and once the group officially realizes that Phenotrans was behind it, Sullivan works fast, killing the woman about to call for help, gathering the evidence, fleeing once the confrontation gets out of his control, and coming literal seconds away from getting away with everything scot-free - there's even at least two endings where he completely succeeds in his goal (one where he gets away alive if Chuck loses the fight, and another where he kills the survivors himself if Chuck doesn't solve the mystery in time). Even when he's killed in such a brutal manner, he still accomplishes half his goal - the evidence against his company is carried away with his upper half, and Chuck is forced to track down and break into a Phenotrans facility to find more evidence and officially clear his name. I dismissed him before because of his death - he's clearly caught off-guard and dies in shock - but between other candidates who are killed because of last-second moves on the hero's part (Arthur Harrow comes to mind), the fact that Chuck himself is an MB in part because of his insanely quick thinking, Sullivan's corpse still carrying the evidence away and thus completing his goal posthumously, nand the standard for embarrassing/brutal deaths among the franchise (even in Sullivan's own game, Leon sets himself on fire, Brandon is bitten by the zombie he was infecting people with, Seymour falls from a ladder while bragging about how strong he is and is sliced in half, Antoine staggers into a vat of boiling oil, etc.), I ultimately don't think it's as bad as I once thought it was.
Ultimately, Sullivan is smart, works fast, plays his cards close to his chest, comes seconds away from getting away with everything, pulls an act that fools everyone until it's too late, and even posthumously, he sets Chuck back severely and forces him to confront Phenotrans directly.
Is he a Bastard?
There's no downplaying his villainy because the Fortune City Outbreak is awful and kills thousands of people, and he makes attempts to kill all the survivors - in a non-canon ending he straight up kills them himself, while canonically he lets the zombies into the Safe House to let the zombies kill them, plus he kills Rebecca himself and tries to leave the survivors to be firebombed. However, he has one thing that literally no other main antagonist of the games has - good intentions. Sullivan genuinely believes that he's doing all of this to save people's lives in the long run, and notably, Chuck himself can't actually argue the logic behind his intentions - he only fights Sullivan because Phenotrans kills his wife. He's not doing it for money, misplaced revenge, selfish desires, or to militarize zombies like the others, he's creating a supply of Queens big enough to keep the country working for as long as he can. In fact, he's outright disgusted by TK's greed and makes a point to distance Phenotrans from his actions, calling him greedy and saying he went off the rails. Basically, while his villainy is intense, his good intentions offset it and make him far more understandable and sympathetic than his monstrous boss.
Final verdict?
On a closer look, I think he's a stronger keep than I initially gave him credit for. What say we?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Edwin, Bowser, and Raymond Sullivan.
Now one suggested to by mir. From the CSI episode "Sqweegel", we have the killer of the same name. Who is completely unrelated to the CM of the same from the from the associated digital novel.
Who is Sqweegel?
Not much is none about Sqweegel's past. In the present however, Sqweegel is a serial killer who targets local heroes with dark secrets for unknown reasons. For this reason he buys a complete body latex suit from a local sex products store making sure not to reveal his address or face and using a fake name "Ian Moone" an anagram for "I am no one." Sqweegel than stalks his victims watching their every move before he attacks them entering a different way than he normally does to make it look like this is the first time he has been in their house. He then attacks his target but leaves them alive to give them a chance to confess. While also leaving clues as to why he attack them at the scene.
The episode begins with him attacking Margot Wilton, a reciever of the key to the city who killed her wheelchair bond son in an act of mercy and covered it up. Sqweegel later kills Carrie Jones, the head of the local Family Values Committee, who was cheating on her husband. He did this by hiding in a small comportment in the back of her locked and waiting until she went to the carwash and attacking when she tells her daughter to put her headphones in so she can talk to her lover. Escaping the scene by traveling a pipe, it's revealed that he had attacked her earlier and given a chance to confess to the affair. The cops later found a video tape if her cheating on her husband, that Sqweegel had left in her bed to expose her. Sqweegel later attacks Margot again when she latter returns home looking for her never sent confessions later, getting her to admit she murdered her son, before escaping a leaving her letters for the police to find and a paramedic's, who had secretly started fires to look like a hero, body in a suit identical to who his in order to get away proudly claiming latter that "I am no one."
Magnificent? Bastard? Too much?
Okay Sqweegel is a bit of an anomaly. He's not much of a talker and not of his personality is shown. He is however shown to be incredibly intelligent and plans for every eventuality. He is a bit of a Creepy Awesome character and gets away with everything at the end. He runs circles around the officers, makes sure that they can't find out his identity, and even kills a decoy body hours in advance to get away at the end.
The bastard part is no problem either. He is a serial after who while targeting people with secrets those secrets have nothing to do with him and at least one of his victims is shown to be genuinely regretful. However he gives his victims time to confess, only harms those he thinks he deserves it (he leaves Carrie's daughter unharmed), and when Margot admits her crime he spares her even if he reveals the crime afterwards.
Conclusion?
Leaning yes.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Based on the EP, leaning to Sqweegel as well.
Finished Obi-Wan Kenobi last night. Feel free to PM me to discuss the show if you so desire.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 23rd 2022 at 11:06:01 AM
Professor Gigachad
Raymond and Sqweegel.
From the same fic I am also considering doing the future version of Mario himself as he has a moment where he uses the rebels as sacrifices in order for Luigi to take out Bowser's army from behind so they can take Bowser down but I am not sure on him as that is the only thing that will qualify him as both Magnificent and a Bastard.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Edwin Bowser Sqweegel and Sullivan
Is there anything keeping Stacy from Off The Record from counting, asking since you said Sullivan is "one last" candidate.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
to Frightengale
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?