During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
If you're worried about her being "too gross", the pie guys are total Asshole Victims. They took part in the Red Wedding which was a full on massacre of Stark men and banner men while they were eating a meal, a very sacred breach of trust. It's fucked up, but really not too bad.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Draftsman of Doom
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, so? Hannibal Lecter fed a guy his own brain. Plus the Walders had it coming. Keeping my approval for Titus Andronicus Jr.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
You don't need to convince me, I'll say that much.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 10th 2022 at 12:40:30 PM
Feels good, don't it?
mu
I guess I'm a yes, if this is the only really bad act she's ever done.
They cut her mother's throat, slaughtered her eldest brother and stabbed her pregnant sister in law in the stomach.
Lies and Violence!
Huh. This didn't take as much time to write as I thought it would. Cool.
Anyway, this one should be the last Skulduggery Pleasant character until June-ish.
*Suddenly remembers five more*
FUCK!!
Who is Quoneel?
Quoneel is the head of the hidden blades, a group of otherwise unnamed master assassins. Taking in numerous children to turn into hardened killers, Quoneel is introduced meeting the then-unnamed daughter of a family of his former students to begin her training (apparently it's a family tradition).
Quoneel, in response to the mockery and isolation from the other children, advises the girl to lose her upper-class standings and attitude — one must lose their confidence, lose their poise, and hold themselves low if they wish to become an unseen shadow.
Part of this training, of course, involves forcing the kids to murder people. One day, the girl finds herself brought before a random woman, and is handed a dagger. Quoneel tells her to kill this woman, Tanith. No reason given, no explanation, and the heavy implication she'll be killed herself if she doesn't go through with it. The woman tries to rush them and the girl stabs her, Quoneel complimenting her for the job well done as she numbly stares at her hands in horror.
The next day, Quoneel reveals that this woman had poisoned her husband to inherit his wealth.
The girl continues her studies over the next few years, learning from a variety of masters on everything from forgery to astronomy to picking locks to carpentry. She eventually decides she wants her specific discipline of magic to be the ability to walk on walls — the other children picked stuff like shooting laser beams, which Quoneel agrees is redundant and clumsy for an assassin. Still, he lets them choose what they want, knowing they'll make decent assassins anyway and hoping the actual exceptional students will do the smart thing.
By the time the 1940's roll around, the time has come for the girl — having taken on the name Tanith Low — to leave and return to the outside world. Quoneel bids her goodbye.
Tanith acts as a hidden blade for a few years, but by the time the 60's come along (magic people age slowly) she decides she doesn't want to keep killing people for the rest of her life. There's no rule against leaving the blades, so... she does.
Is He Magnificent?
From what little we get, yes. Quoneel is an excellent teacher, offering nothing but praise and advice for his students, and runs an organization of expert assasins that specifically target horrible people — murderers and terrorists and the like. Now, this is technically training child soldiers, but aside from the "forcing them to murder people" thing it isn't played for as much horror as it probably could be. His parting words to Tanith are basically "you're free to do whatever," and both her and her brother leave without any death threats or sudden ninja attacks. Given how cordially he referred to the latter during Tanith's training, he really doesn't seem to hold a grudge against people leaving the group.
Is He a Bastard?
Even if their targets are bad people, he's still a major member in an organization of assassins. Quoneel takes an active part in training their students, forcing them under threat of death into committing traumatic murders that often leave them unable to sleep for the next few nights.
The Draftsman of Doom
Next to the likes of Littlefinger and Lord Ramsay Bolton, Arya Stark is a saint, just saying.
Yes to Quoneel.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 10th 2022 at 12:51:32 PM
Feels good, don't it?
mu
yes to quoneel (my god, this novel series has a lot of mb)
Yes to Arya Stark
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Quoneel.
Alright, I will propose this guy first then.
Pokémon Legends: Arceus takes place in ancient Sinnoh, known at the time as the Hisui region. Hidden from the trailers, this game is in fact an isekai, with the protagonist hailing from modern day Sinnoh and being warped to the past by Arceus. Of course, your character falling out of a rift in space-time above the region does not endear you to most of the locals, except for Professor Laventon, though others, such as Laventon's assistant, Rei/Akari, and boss, Cyllene, start to warm up to you.
Neither members of the Big Bad Ensemble count as MBs. Kamado acts out of paranoia, and his banishment of the protagonist is stated to be the result of jumping to the wrong conclusions. And Volo...well he's a motherfucker, plain and simple. But there is still a character that I am interested in.
Who is Cyllene?
Cyllene is the head of the Galaxy Exploration Team's Survey Corps, who head off into the wilds to survey the Pokémon and catch them. This is during a time when Pokémon were considered very dangerous, so she has the duty of ordering the dangerous expeditions to occur. This does not seem to bother the stone faced captain, and she does her job diligently.
The protagonist arrives falling from the sky, so Cyllene decides to give them work in the Galaxy Team. She gives them a task: go out into the wild and catch three Pokémon (a Bidoof, a Starly, and a Shinx, hilariously common and weak Pokémon). If successful, the player is now a member. If they fail, they will be expelled from Jubilife Village and left to die. Of course, its a spoken possibility that the player might actually die during this test anyway.
Of course, they survive and Cyllene rewards them with membership as a Survey Corps member. Thus, she assigns the missions she receives from Galaxy Team Commander Kamado, as well as checking the PokeDex for updates in data as well as raising your rank at certain points. Also, a Wurmple gets into her office and she freaks out, ordering her Abra to teleport it away...before going right back to normal like nothing ever happened.
Late into the game, Kamado expels the protagonist from Jubilife Village, and Cyllene officially goes along with it, personally escorting them out before giving them a mission: don't die. She then subtly subverts Kamado's authority to make sure the protagonist has what they need to survive by sending her Abra to make sure that they can swap out Pokémon from their ranch if need be. When the protagonist helps craft the Red Chain and returns to Jubilife Village, Cyllene reinstates the their rank, going against Kamado's orders, before sending them up to Mount Coronet to stop Kamado's plan of sealing the rift. After the climax, there is a party where Cyllene enjoys herself before it's back to business.
Is she magnificent?
Apart from her Wurmple phobia, she is remarkably calm and cool, letting almost nothing bothering her. She also successfully undermine's Kamado's authority and discreetly aid's the protagonist during their exile.
Is she a bastard?
This is where things are more questionable. Most of her bad stuff is at the beginning of the game, where she sends a time displaced child out into the wilderness with only another Pokémon to fend off threats. She explicitly states that if the protagonist were to fail their trial, she would leave them to die, and it's pointed out that they could very well die anyway. And the was she speaks implies that she has done this before. But I'm not sure if it is enough.
Verdict?
You decide. I'm going to bed. Not too invested in this one, not like what the CM discussion will turn out.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Feb 10th 2022 at 1:16:13 PM
I cut this unapproved entry from Gungrave
- Magnificent Bastard: Harry is a suave, cunning Manipulative Bastard who is fantastic at business and good with women. He also has a better image than Brandon because Brandon is the one who deals with all the necessary bloodshed.
According to the Characters page, he has a Villainous Breakdown in the anime, so....
Edited by KingofNightmares on Feb 10th 2022 at 11:08:07 AM
—signature not found—
I'm gonna get to Gungrave
Yes to Arya, Sandor, Thel Vadam, Quonell, and sure to Cyllene.
If we're talking about Frey Pies, does anyone object to me effort posting Wyman Manderly from the Books?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The only slight issue is...y'know, unfinished arc. Love the guy, would happily support him myself, but...
Also, quick one, before writeups:
What's the work?
The Last Vampire is a weird as fuck urban fantasy horror series, starring Alisa "I am Better Than You At Everything" Perne, AKA Sita, the last vampire in existence. Sita lives a solitary, comfortable existence, where she chills, has boyfriends and girlfriends, drinks blood of bad guys and not so bad guys...
Now Sita is a blond bombshell Aryan goddess. She is from Ancient India, where only the white people are from. But we're not here to talk about Sita, but her creator...
Yaksha.
Who is Yaksha?
A beautiful man and the first vampire of all. Yaksha was born when Sita's pregnant friend became possessed by a demonic Yakshini and slew a priest. The Yakshini was defeated, and Sitas friend dead, but her baby lived. Sita advocated to kill the baby, and her father gave her the knife to do the deed....Sita refused to kill a baby, but named it: Yaksha.
Yaksha grew quickly...a beautiful young man, and Sita had a husband and daughter. Yaksha killed her father eventually and abducted her, with his new followers, though the word for Vampire did not yet exist. Yaksha gave Sita an ultimatum: join him and his new breed or he would kill her family. Sita agreed. Yaksha, with his vampires, led a crusade of conquest, with no force being stronger than him...
Except for Lord Krishna. Yaksha faced Krishna and the two dueled, with music and snakes...Yaksha lost, most of his vampire minions killed. Sita stood her ground and Krishna pardoned her, but made her swear to never make a new vampire...and he made Yaksha promise something as well.
Millennia pass. Yaksha, as part of his pardon, becomes a vampire hunter and steadily eliminates most of the remaining vampires in the world. In the middle ages, Yaksha is killed by a mob and haha who are we kissing?
Nope, Yaksha's alive, and has wiped out every vampire on the planet but himself and Sita, announcing himself to her by sending a few sacrificial pawns, to draw her where he wants here: a death for both of them. Sita, however, turns her human lover Ray to save his life and breaks her vow to Krishna, while Yaksha sets up a perfect trap with a bomb to eliminate them...however, upon their final talk, Yaksha helps Sita to realize that to break her vow for love did not betray Krishna and she still has his grace. Yaksha frees them and detonates the bomb to end himself...
Unfortunately...Yaksha's really, REALLY durable and survives this, to his displeasure. a creepy morgue attendant named Eddie Fender discovers his body and becomes obsessed with it, eventually taking some blood and becomes a super powerful vampire...Yaksha, incidentally, is way stronger than any other vampire...except Eddie due to the sheer quantity of blood he's taken. Yaksha is kept, a mutilated torso sewn into a sack in an ice cream truck as the cold keeps him weak and if he was allowed to recover, well, it'd be a "now where's daddy's belt?" situation.
Sita finds Yaksha, who takes it all on the chin, cheerfully just asking Sita what flavor she wants...in a final conversation, Yaksha is freed and lets himself die. Sita takes his blood at his behest to become even stronger as well, with Yaksha finally passing on to the next world. We also later learn he had a wife and son in the past, who ally with Sita.
Mitigating issues?
So, you wouldn't expect a guy whose first act with the heroine is "get vamped or I kill your family" to be this deep, but Yaksha...is? This is incidentally an act of Yaksha's when he's quite young and immature and despite their relationship being kinda twisted at times, it becomes apparently that Yaksha loves Sita and to her surprise, she's grown to love him. Yaksha, however is...polite. He's friendly, he's genteel, he's refined and none of it is fake. He is, in modern day, an excellent employer, a pleasant, funny guy and...he just happens to be a somewhat amoral vampire. He's also a genius planner and dies with absolute dignity. Not sure it's his fault he slightly miscalculated a super powerful bomb wouldnt actually be enough to kill him.
I mean, he's definitely evil. He killed loads of people in the past, even if he atones by steadily wiping out all other vampires...and he does drink blood, and he doesn't really hesitate to send some killers after Sita, fully knowing they'll be killed....
not to put too fine a point on it, though? As far as "innocent people killed" goes? Yaksha has less of a count than Sita herself, who doesn't try to kill innocent people, but...she's not really bothered too much when she does. Yaksha is considerably less nasty at times than the heroine.
Conclusion?
Easy keeper.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure there.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Yaksha
Looking through the "works with their own pages", would it be useful to specify what works are covered if the medium is different from the source medium.
Take for example, Anime & Manga, which includes Pokemon, Sherlock Holmes, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Star Wars, none of which debuted as an Anime/Manga
Maybe there could be something to indicate that the works debuted in a different medium, or we could list the works being covered. It would be something like this:
- Pokémon (Pokémon: The Series)
- Sherlock Holmes (Moriarty the Patriot)
- Sonic the Hedgehog (Sonic X)
- Star Wars (Star Wars: Visions)
Nothing will have to be done with the other "Has their own page" works under "Anime and Manga", since they are known as an Anime or Manga first and foremost, and most (if not all) of the entries would come from there. Rinse and repeat for the other medium specific pages
Same can be done for Complete Monster
Edited by magnumtropus on Feb 11th 2022 at 6:51:49 PM
Goku Black
Arya who went North, Aribiter,Quonell, Cyllene and Yaksha (Tbf the guy is almost saintly compared to some of the later villains in these books like Eddie or Himmler....)
Tbf the a song of ice books are in a very weird state in the manner of possibly never coming out. So I don't really mind that ep Lore. Well just reevaluate when it comes out ?
Edited by miraculous on Feb 11th 2022 at 2:32:11 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Arya Arbiter, Quoneel, Cyllene and Yaksha
Also I'm snagging the Futurama revival set to come out next year.
Love the energy and seeing some great inventive ideas from Lighty here! I don't have time to get to voting but congratulations and I'll definitely be giving feedback after work!
Showtime!
to Yaksha and Quoneel
I'm not sure how I feel about Cyllene. I'm not sure she's consistently bastardly enough, even for a pokemon game
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Yes to Arya Arbiter, Quoneel, Cyllene and Yaksha.
Yes to Yaksha.
We put up Bloodraven from the Books and his arc isn't doen yet either. At this point, George R.R. Lucas is going to die before finishing the rest, so we should just go by what we got.
We haven't done Euron for CM since the really bad stuff is from previews of an unreleased book, but Lord Manderly does enough with what we got.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Goku Black
Yeah like I said. This series is now In a genuine state where it might legit never come out so I have no issue with that ep
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Quoneel, Yakima.
For Cyllene I think the implication that she's done it before is just pushing me to a , because otherwise the framing of sending a trainer to capture very weak pokemon is somewhat iffy in bastardliness but most people aren't pokemon trainers in this time period.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 11th 2022 at 10:08:18 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
yes to vadam but i'm not sure about arya (the pie thing sounds really fucked up)