During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
No, 43 is gonna handle Noah. This is specifically for the brothers, and we're gonna have two more keepers from the duology besides them.
Alright looking forward to that.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
the boondock saints
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Their friend Smecker right is one?
Edited by miraculous on Jan 9th 2022 at 6:17:44 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Tommy and the MacManus bros.
to the McManus boys.
In terms of villains from those movies, maybe you should give Louie some consideration.
I don't think Louie makes it, the "quality" of the second film certainly doesn't help him much. Anyways here's dad:
Who is Il Duce? What has he done?
The most feared hitman at the mob's disposal, who only demands he not be given contracts on women or children. Fearing the Saints, Papa Joe has him sprung from prison despite the warning of an older mobster on how uncontrollable he is. Quickly tracking down the brothers and Rocco as they prepare to leave a scene, Il Duce fights them intensely, wounding them despite being chased off and blowing one of Rocco's fingers off.
When the twins are later caught by Papa Joe, Il Duce suddenly comes to their rescue, killing a capo allegedly on his own side before hearing the brothers' signature Irish prayer and recognizing them as his own sons, finishing it with them before joining forces. Gaining support including from Smecker within the police, the brothers and their father—real name Noah MacManus—head to the court during Papa Joe's trial and publicly execute him, stopping his evasion of justice before vanishing...
... until the next movie! Staying on the sidelines for most of it, Noah decides to return when a dangerous assassin nearly kills his boys. In a flashback, we learn Noah once dreamt of being a leatherworker like his father until he saw him shot dead by a group of mobsters. Getting revenge with his best friend Louie, Noah began a string of brilliant and brutal vigilante attacks until Louie set him up to be arrested.
Confronting him in present time, Noah and his sons gun through waves of Louie's men, Noah mortally wounded but lives long enough to put a bullet in the traitorous head of his regretful former friend.
Actions and personality?
Noah is the original version of the Saints themselves. He's a brilliant hitman with a code, sets up crazy kills and is tactical beyond belief in a fight. He's charming, he's composed and can lure out anyone, tracking them endlessly till he's caught his prey.
Mitigating factors?
Louie set him up years ago but he was a kid at the time, besides, Noah still gets to be the one to hunt down and kill him, even while bleeding out himself.
Verdict?
Yes to Anderson.
Il Duce.
Goku Black
is Il Duce
If anyone wants me to repost the Batman characters or provide more insight about them, please PM me, as I'm not sure how much time I'll have to check in the near future future.
Also, to Il Duce.
I've added the Viccellio's to the draft, and mentioned where they should go (between Pierre Despereaux and Reginald Parker). I'll do something different for my next EP - my next proposal will not be from Psych... season 6
Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 9th 2022 at 6:59:32 PM
Yes to Connor Murphy and Il Duce.
Second Pokéstar Studios candidate, and I’m nowhere near as confident in this one, but it’s worth a shot. From the Brycen-Man series, the main starring role of Gym Leader Brycen, the self-proclaimed Masked Man of Reality and Phantasm: Brycen-Man.
Who is Brycen-Man? What does he do?
In the first Brycen-Man movie, admittedly not much. It’s the first Pokéstar movie you ever get, so being barebones is expected. He’s attacking an amusement park, and the player’s character, the Riolu Kidnote defeats him in a Pokémon battle, knocking out both of his Mons with one hit. Brycen-Man retreats, but grandiosely claims We Will Meet Again. Come Brycen-Man Strikes Back, Brycen-Man is attacking a port where an ocean liner is leaving in order to buy time so he can sneak into the ship and steal a powerful black diamond. But the newly-evolved Lucario Kid appears to stop him again, and Brycen Man figures he should get them off his tail first despite time being short. The Lucario Kid manages to stall Brycen-Man and the ship leaves before either side can win or lose, but though annoyed, Brycen-Man refuses to give up, saying, “Desperate times call for desperate measures!” He then jumps into the ocean and swims after the liner, disappearing into the horizon.
The extent of Brycen-Man’s ambitions comes in Brycen-Man Strikes Back 2. He has built a brand-new battleship, the Brycen Jet, powered by the black diamond he stole from the liner. The Lucario Kid is utterly flabbergasted at how he actually managed to catch up to the liner by swimming, sneak in, and steal the diamond. He fires himself and his Pokémon out of the Brycen Cannon, which amplifies a being’s power, and fights the Lucario Kid’s two Lucario head-on, also stating his intent to Take Over the World. But as the battle goes on, Brycen-Man begins feeling weak and coughing, unable to move his body right, apparently as a result of the Brycen-Cannon’s energy. He starts to wonder if this is the end, but continues fighting anyway, but is defeated, and realizing that his ambitions have come to an end, orders the Lucario Kid to finish him off right there. The Kid refuses, though, as they truly enjoy fighting Brycen-Man and consider him a cool and skilled Pokémon Trainer despite his villainy, and challenge him to a rematch another time. Touched, Brycen-Man accepts, officially declaring the Lucario Kid his archrival and promising to defeat them for good one day.
- Brycen-Man defeats the Kid in all 3 bad endings.
- In the Strikes Back bad ending in particular, he steals the black diamond and sells it for retirement money.
- In the Strikes Back 2 bad ending, he blasts the Kid far away with the Brycen Cannon, and they are never seen again.
- In the strange ending of the first movie, the Kid’s sheer incompetence at using moves lowers Brycen-Man’s evil confidence, and he frustratedly returns to his lair.
- In the Strikes Back strange ending, the Kid actually defeats Brycen-Man instead of just stalling him. He explains the power of the black diamond to the Kid, and they go to steal it for themself, with Brycen-Man basically saying he thought he was the villain.
- Finally, in the Strikes Back 2 strange ending, Brycen-Man realizes he is too weak to continue fighting and orders the Brycen Jet to fire the Brycen Cannon at him. He flies through the sky and disappears just like the Kid does in the bad ending.
- There is a fourth movie, Brycen-Man Strikes Back Harder, but it’s All Just a Dream so I’m not considering it.
How does he operate?
You can’t go wrong with a Large Ham of a Card-Carrying Villain such as Brycen-Man. He never lets defeat really get to him, and he never misses an opportunity to chew the scenery, laugh evilly, or give a flowery speech. He uses the black diamond to power an elaborate super-weapon and empower himself while knowing the potential risks of absorbing its energy, continues fighting even as those risks come to be and he might actually die, and got said black diamond by just swimming after the ocean liner after his initial plan to steal the diamond was foiled. Essentially, Brycen-Man is the “suicidally overambitious” type, and he still succeeds (and fails) with style. He also genuinely respects the Lucario Kid and eventually sees them as a Worthy Opponent, even giving them the chance to kill him once and for all.
Is he (too much of) a bastard?
Constantly causes destruction and mayhem just because he’s evil. Pretty simple, and we don’t even see a good deal of it due to the nature of the medium.
Verdict?
I think he at least meets the bare minimum requirements.
Sure to Brycen-Man lol. Sounds fun!
Calamity Jan, Brycen-Man, and the McManuses.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
King Tut.
Professor Gigachad
Brycen-Man, this guy was a complete joke as a gym leader and they managed to make him a MB.
I hate spoilers
Interesting. So they have a fourth movie but it's not part of the in-universe canon. I like that. Brycen-man.
For a Psych candidate not from season 6
The Work
Psych
The Candidate
Army Johnson from the Season 3 episode Earth, Wind and... Wait for It.
The episode opens with Arson Inspector Morgan Conrad approaching the police for help, regarding a building that burned down under what she believes is suspicious circumstances. As the fire appears to be accidental, she is getting no support from her department. Her boss - Army Johnson - tells them that the building had no fire insurance, so there is no motive for arson. Also, there hasn't been a case of arson for 10 years. Morgan counters that one of the fireman on the scene reported smelling something sweet, a sign of an accelerant. Shawn notices that one of the walls lacks insulation, so he smashes it open, revealing a blackened skeleton hidden inside.
At the coroner's office, they find out the victim was shot in the back execution style before being burned. In addition, trace amounts of methylbenzene (the accelerant) were found on the body. Shawn and Gus go to the fire station to investigate, where they meet Fire Chief Dan Trombly, who tells them that two firefighters, died in the Renkel fires of '98 (the aforementioned arson cases). The duo tells Dan about the accelerant found at the scene, which he is surprised to hear about.
As the duo participate in training drills with the firefighters, they hear that the fire was exceptionally easy to put out, the building was completely empty, and no firefighters missed their shift that night. The alarm sounds and the firehouse clears out, giving Shawn and Gus the opportunity to follow the crew in hopes of finding the arsonist. They come across Chief Dan, who's shift was supposedly over. After Shawn notices flecks of paint in Dan's hair and Gus smells the accelerant in the air, they suspect Dan as he was in the building before the fire started.
Turns out another body was found in the latest fire, apparently killed way back in '98. Morgan confirms that both buildings were built that year and it would have been easy to kill and hide bodies at the construction sites. She also says that once again, the fire was easy to put out and the building had no insurance. Shawn suspects that a firefighter is behind the fires, and goes to find Gus at the station. he had been keeping an eye on Dan all day, and tells Shawn he had been engaging in apparently suspicious activity all day. Shawn swipes his cell phone and discovers that he made five calls in a row to hardware stores all over the city.
However, Dan is cleared as a suspect when his dead body is found at the site of another fire - It turns out that Dan died of smoke inhalation, though it appears that someone tried to revive him. Also, the latest victim had a pacemaker and so they were able to identify him as one of the arsonists behind the fires of '98. She pulls out mug shots of the arsonist and his accomplices, and Shawn recognizes two more victims - whose bodies were also found at the other sites. It looks like they were hunted down ten years ago and now someone is trying to burn the evidence.
Shawn and Gus meet Morgan at Army's office to find more on the buildings themselves. They were all built a year after the fires and they are all scheduled for seismic retrofit. The walls were going to be opened up, which would have lead to the discovery of the bodies. They get a list of the other buildings scheduled for retrofit,and Morgan goes to check them out as the cops find and bring in the sole surviving arsonist.
The arsonist tells them that he was abducted ten years ago to be executed for the fires, but the killer's gun jammed and he was able to escape. The only thing he remembers about the site was hearing hundreds of birds chirping. The duo realize that of the buildings on the retrofit list is near a bird sanctuary. They call Morgan to alert her but she is unconscious on the ground, while the arsonist douses the scene with accelerant.
Shawn and Gus race to the building to find the arsonist is Army Johnson. They try to keep him from lighting the fire, while Shawn tells him he understands why he did what he did - he was a firefighter with the two men who died in the '98 arsons. He sought revenge by hunting down the arsonists, killing them at construction sites, and hiding their bodies in the walls. In the present day, Chief Dan figured it out and tried to stop him but was killed accidentally. Army sets himself on fire out of guilt, but is saved by Gus, who wraps him in a blanket and carries him out of the burning building while Shawn rescues Morgan.
Magnificence
He had a sympathetic motivation for his actions, and was able to keep the bodies hidden for 10 years - the factors that would have led to their discovery were out of his control. In the present day, he also seems to plan the fires such that they are easy to put out, but at the same time they spread quickly so as to destroy the evidence as fast as possible.
Bastardry
Even if his targets were arsonists, he went full vigilante on them. In the present day, he is trying to minimize casualties as he sets the buildings alight, and the one death he is responsible for (Chief Dan) was an accident. However, judging by the last scene, he was apparently okay with Morgan going up in flames with the rest of the building (as she knew too much).
Mitigating Factors
He breaks down shortly before immolating himself - however, it isn't a Villainous Breakdown due to his plan failing (all he has to do is drop the candle). It's out of guilt.
Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 9th 2022 at 10:58:03 PM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Bryce and the Boondock guys
Looking at the dates page, some stuff could do with an update, there's a lot of stuff that's past it's date or has already been talked about. I'm going to post the specific entries and what I thing should be done with them to see what the thread thinks. Sorry if this is a lot I just want to get the page cleaned up.
Alter
- Lupin III: Part 6: 2021 (43110/Lightysnake) This series is apparently still ongoing so it should be marked as such
- Cowboy Bebop: 2021 (43110 & Ravok) This is apparently being released later this year
- Evil West: 2021 (Tyk5919)
- Project G.G. Mecha: 2021 (Tyk5919) Both of these games aren't out yet
Remove
- Spider-Man: No Way Home: December 31st, 2021 (futuremoviewriter) was discussed and should be removed now
- The Matrix Resurrections: January 5th, 2022 (PolarPhantom) ditto
- Resident Evil: Welcome to Raccoon City: December 7th 2021 I was unable to watch this one so it's up for grabs if anyone wants
- Arcane: December 4, 2021 (Ravok & Lightysnake) got an ep for Silco and I doubt there's anything else to say about it considering how long its been
- Five Nights at Freddy's: Security Breach: December 30, 2021 (RK93) I don't think RK ever talked about this but I doubt they will mind me saying that no one counts and nothing in it affects our current keepers
Past date
- Injustice (2021): Fall 2021 (Ordeaux26) Past it's date but I don't know if there was a discussion or not
- Black Friday: December 3rd, 2021 (Ravok) ditto with the previous one
- The Expanse: Leviathan Falls: (December 14, 2021) (lrrose)
- Chloe Gong's Our Violent Ends (November 29, 2021) (Riley1sCool)
- Cowboy Bebop: A Syndicate Story: Red Planet Requiem: 2021 (43110 & Ravok) I know this was used as part of a CM EP but I don't recall anything being brought up here
- Shin Megami Tensei V: November 25, 2021(Kazuya Prota)
- Halo Infinite: December 22, 2021 (Reddishguy1)
- Masters of the Universe: Revelation Part Two: December 7, 2021 (Riley1sCool and Lightysnake)
Edited by papyru30 on Jan 9th 2022 at 9:23:37 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Professor Gigachad
Oh yeah when it comes to Injustice (2021), if someone wants to do a proposal they can but I am not super confident in anyone counting.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Oh, hey. Violent Ends. I'll handle it soon enough.
Sure to Brycen-Man.
Caesar
Still reading latest Psych, but Yes to the Boondock Saints' candidates and Bryce boi!
No one counts IMO from Black Friday, the Cowboy Bebop novel did indeed pass time and while it buffed out Spike's likely counting it didn't bring anyone new, and technically Lighty I think is still doing Sevika from Arcane but I've no idea on that, it can be removed for now.
Edited by Ravok on Jan 9th 2022 at 8:38:11 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Feel free to dice those off pap!
For Spike I think we're basically just waiting for the comics now.
Edited by 43110 on Jan 9th 2022 at 4:38:34 PM
The wifi here sucks
Alright I cut and updated what I could, also I forgot about this one
- Mad God 2021 (Ravok)
Ahahahaha, hell yes to Connor and Murphy!