During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Dragon
Personally I try to avoid Supernatural so can't comment there.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Killer.
Gotta love Jaws!
Woagh
Time for my first EP here. I'm not entirely sure if he'll make it, considering music is now a bit of a controversial topic in this thread, but eh, why not?
The Stupendium is an youtube musician who makes raps about video games. BTW, if you haven't seen him before, I highly recommend him, he's like a Lighter and Softer Dan Bull. Anyways, he's recently made a couple of songs based on Animal Crossing, and his first song takes a certain characters Ron the Death Eater treatment to its logical conclusion...
Who is Tom Nook?
Yes, really.
The song's here, if you wanna see for yourself.
Tom Nook is the host of the New Horizons project, in which people are taken to a tropical island and told to make a functioning town out of it. However, what Tom doesn't tell them is how little supplies they get, resulting in people getting tents and sleeping bags instead of houses and regular beds. If they want that, they gotta pay Nook.
The song is essentially Nook singing about how he's fooled everyone into giving him money just to stay, while also revealing he also has a long term plan: when the houses inevitably collapse on themselves, he'll just simply advertise a new island, causing everyone to move there. The way he says it implies this strategy has been going on for a while. He also reveals that he set up the mayor of the town (The Mayor) as the scapegoat, with the villagers seen rallying against him instead of Nook.
The end of the song shows Nook as a millionaire, and seeing how the other songs have Nook make a cameo at the end, it's safe to say he got away with his scheme in the end.
Is he Intelligent?
Yup. The song shows that he manipulated everyone on the island into staying despite it being a complete craphole, fools everyone into rebelling against the wrong person, and has every major figure in his pocket to control.
Is he Charming?
Absolutely. The Stupendium does an amazing job at playing a Faux Affably Evil Corrupt Corporate Executive who joyfully tells you how he fooled everyone into giving him money, with the song implying that the villagers still trust him and aren't aware of his doing. As such, he's a lot of fun to watch.
Is he a Bastard? Also yes. At this point, it should be obvious why he's a bastard. He even jokes about putting up a "No Pets" rule, leaving everyone homeless and living in the garden, though he ultimately doesn't go through with it, judging by the other songs. That being said, there's also half a verse dedicated to him ripping into the Mayor for driving Isabelle to drink, having been stressed out by the mayor leaving her to take care of all the villagers by herself while he went and caught butterflies. One image at the end of the song also imply that his assistants/sons/nephews/employees Timmy and Tommy get a share of the money, and he's never seen mistreating them either. Finally, the third AC song, "Rouges Gallery", shows that the games actual conman, Crazy Redd, is even worse, not only stealing paintings and making forgeries of the to sell, but also murder anyone who doesn't pay him back. The song even ends on an announcement from Nook, advising everyone to stay away from him, suggesting that even he finds him bad news.
Any migrating factors? The biggest one is that he does sound smug about the whole thing, but considering that the plan's going off without a hitch, he has a good reason to be smug. Helps that he never brags about him being a genius or anything, and is Incredibly honest about how corrupt he is.
Final Thoughts?
What do you guys think?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Oh, and To the guy below me, though the "killing the driver" thing's a bit of a dick move, though nothing mitigating, I suppose.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Oct 28th 2020 at 1:48:25 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Gotta love Jaws!
Just listened to the Tom Nook song, and although he does sound kind of smug for now I will lean towards a yes.
I'll lean yes to him too.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Oct 28th 2020 at 1:33:43 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Dropping another rap candidate.
What's the work?
On the Run is a Kool G Rap & DJ Polo song and the second single from their third and final album Live and Let Die, released in November 24, 1992.
"Over the years, several music critics have hailed it as an underground classic, due to Kool G Rap's intricate lyricism, and Sir Jinx's production.
Compared to the lyrical themes on the duo's previous albums, this album features an even greater focus on hardcore gangsta and mafioso rap lyrics. The violence and sexual content are much more graphic than on any previous Kool G Rap & DJ Polo album. Most of the songs feature vivid stories of some sort, many of them related to organized crime (especially the singles "On the Run" and "Ill Street Blues") and violent street crime ("Train Robbery", "Two to the Head"). There are also sex raps ("Operation CB", "Fuck U Man"), horrorcore stories ("Straight Jacket", "Edge of Sanity"), and even some socio-political commentary similar to Public Enemy and Boogie Down Productions ("Crime Pays"). The songs "Home Sweet Home", "Fuck U Man", and "Still Wanted Dead or Alive" act as sequels, respectively, to the songs "Streets of New York", "Talk Like Sex", and "Wanted: Dead or Alive" from the previous album."
Basically, in the song, Kool G Rap works for the Luciano criminal family : he's "Doin some pickups, deliveries and transportin keys (i.e., money and drugs)". But it isn't as simple as it seems : G Rap constantly puts his life on the line during that job and feels underpaid by his bosses. So, one day, when he's supposed to deliver 10kg of cocaine and a million dollars?
He's wondering... Should he keep the money for himself or not?
Who's Kool G Rap? What has he done?
Kool G Rap ultimately decides to keep the money for himself. Aware that the Luciano will target his wife and his son if he immediately skips town, he decides to take them with him, at the risk of losing precious time he could've uses to get away.
Driving towards the airport with bags and gun, G Rap and his family ends up struck in traffic.
"A Lincoln Continental pullin right up beside me"
Aware that the Lucianos are just about to pull a drive-by on them, G Rap orders his wife to duck, while he does so himself, narrowly avoiding certain death. G Rap starts firing back and manages to hit some Lucianos. Unfortunately, too many of them are around and manages to wound his wife. G Rap realizes he's clearly outmatched and wisely decides to get away, "drivin off sidewalks, makin sharp turns" and manages to pull his car in a dark alley, while the Lucianos, not noticing the alley, drives past it. G Rap, his wife and his son ends up falling asleep due to the sheer stress.
Cue morning, G Rap wakes up and quickly wakes up his family : they may have gotten away from them yesterday but they still haven't skipped town. In other words, they're still in active danger, and even more so due to their car being easily recognizable due to the gunshots on it.
Reloading his 9 mm pistol and getting out of the alley, G Rap goes towards the South, anywhere as long as he and his family are safe.
Cue Don Luciano's personal limousine coming out of nowhere and ramming into their car. Cue his wife crying. Cue G Rap pissed and firing at the Lucianos, successfully killing almost every single one of them, not sparing anyone who remotely survived. He goes as far as to kill the limousine's driver as well as a now-defenseless Don Luciano by laying low, taking him by surprise and smoking him so fast he didn't have enough time to bargain for his life.
And thus, G Rap got away with his crimes.
At this point, Big L might be the only non-Karma Houdini rap candidate I've dealt with.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Kool G Rap is smart, a One-Man Army and knows how to plan ahead to make sure he skips town as fast as possible with his family.
While he's a One-Man Army, he's not invincible, had to flee the first gunfight and was wounded even after winning the second gunfight. What allowed him to survive the whole shit is above all his intelligence. G Rap only resorts to fighting back when he's cornered with no way out, and even then is clearly in danger. Not to forget endangering his family, who aren't One-Man Armies.
Thinking on his feet?
Struck in traffic? Drive-by? He and his wife ducks and he tries to fight back. Too many Lucianos to fight off? Drive off sidewalks, makes sharp turns and hids in a stereotypical dark alley.
Is he a bastard?
Steals a million dollars from the Luciano criminal family because he feels entitled to it. He has no problem killing the Lucianos' driver for no other reason than the fact that he's a Luciano, with no evidence he was personally involved in the gunfights.
Too much of a bastard?
Clearly loves his wife and son. His crimes are fairly generic.
Any other mitigating factors?
He refers to his wife as his "bitch" several times (and as his ho once) through the song. It's a non-issue though, as he clearly loves her and hurting her is his Berserk Button : when she was shot in the first gunfight, he swore to kill every Luciano. When she's crying during the second gunfight, he goes John Wick on the Lucianos.
Verdict ?
Up to you guys.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Oct 28th 2020 at 9:27:02 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Yeah, G Rap's character sounds like a keeper.
Tom Nook, I'm leaning a weak yea on. If he just conned the villagers I wouldn't say it's magnificent, but it sounds like he pins the blame on the Mayor when challenged, which I think just barely gets him in.
Edit: Listened to the song, and... yeah, he keeps. Plenty smug but he pulls off the scheme and he does seem to have some genuine standards.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 28th 2020 at 1:55:35 AM
It's funny, Lighty and I were discussing on the side how while Ron the Death Eater isn't acceptable on CM, since MB also entails the smarts, charm and ability to adapt in addition to pulling sketchy shit, we both agreed we're fine with it here. Yes to Tom Nook and yes to Georgie's latest rap EP.
to Tom Nook and Kool G Rap.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Tom Nook and Kool G Rap.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Tom Nook and Kool G Rap.
You know speaking of what would go the Treat With Caution section for How to Write a Magnificent Bastard, Should we add the whole show South Park onto the Treat With Caution since mentioning that show has caused friction in the past? I also had an entry about Eric Cartman there before I deleted it because I thought it was unnecessary, but I can re-add if you guys feel otherwise?
Also Obito Uchiha is still on that section while Palpatine isn't despite the agreeing that the former doesn't have to be there since he counts while agreeing to add the latter to have people understand that he doesn't count despite being a brilliant mastermind that it Evil Is Cool. Should we take care of that soon?
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 27th 2020 at 11:44:57 PM
No. Most people don't think South Park has any viable candidates. That's as diplomatic as I'm gonna be.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
No, we don't need South Park listed, we just need to stop talking about it.
Obito is there because there are still writing issues and Satoshi noted in his entry that he counts but is a valid example of how to execute this trope poorly.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Anyway, to quickly change the subject, there's a duo I'm unsure of because of a major mitigating factor. Basically at one point, one of them actually considers using rape as a weapon against one of their targets, but his comrade quickly and successfully convinces him not to do that. Should I EP them or not?
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Woagh
BTW, how many votes does a EP need for the write-up to get into the Drafts page?
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Why does South Park keep getting brought up? This sounds like borderline obsession at this point, it is (slightly) conductive of a candidate but it's not a show that warrants anywhere near this amount of discussion.
I do abstain on music candidates, but I'd be far more okay with the character who convinces the other one not to rape, rather than both of them.
Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 28th 2020 at 8:38:00 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@DoodSlayer136 5 more upvotes than downvotes. Tom (to whom I'm saying yes) has more than enough votes.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Oct 28th 2020 at 10:58:17 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Go for it on the one who talks the other out of attempting a rape.
Lizzid people!
Yes to Rap!Nook (I used to think he was an actual villain before getting into Animal Crossing) and Kool. Will work on Sho Minamimoto's writeup when I get my glasses back.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 28th 2020 at 3:17:16 AM
Woagh
Here's the Writeup:
- Tom Nook is the founder of the New Horizons project, which in reality is a huge scam to con people out of their money. Advertising the island as paradise, he purposely leaves it unfinished, forcing the residents to pay their rents if they want to live comfortably. Nook plans for the houses to break apart in a few years, with Nook then advertising a new island to move to, and the villagers moving to that island, thus repeating the cycle, with the villagers none the wiser. Criticizing the Mayor for bringing Isabell to drink out of stress, he then pins all the blame onto him, causing him to be the scrapegoat, with Nook getting away with everything, becoming a millionaire in the process.
I actually do have another proposal planned from Borderlands 2, specifically the DLC.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Oct 28th 2020 at 3:31:55 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Okay, I only suggested adding South Park to the Treat with Caution because it was brought quite a bit, but I'll drop it if you guys don't think it's necessary.
Also should Petyr "Littlefinger" Beilish be added to the Treat with Caution section since people keep on mistaking him him as an MB, (I especially remember that heated discussion about him back in the forum's early days) and someone did suggest adding him there?
Still to this day unsure how much of the similarity is deliberate. SkekSil at least I see it with... Shades, I think it's just memes and people comparing the show to GoT.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 28th 2020 at 10:18:19 AM