Base Breaking Character Cleanup

Okay, so I was cleaning Bi The Way wicks and stumbled on the Base-Breaking Character section for YMMV.Star Trek Deep Space Nine, which is an absolute mess.

• Base-Breaking Character:
  • Ezri Dax. She had to succeed the fan favorite Jadzia and was basically a first-season character in the show's final season (and thus needed a good few episodes to flesh her out), so she already had some big hurdles to be liked — and it certainly didn't help after the way Jadzia died. She's characterized as someone who was totally unprepared for being joined, particularly to the legendary Dax symbiont, and is still trying to find her feet while the other characters have already matured through several character arcs.
    • Some fans liked the character well enough, but objected to the amount of episodes and screen time devoted to fleshing her out and then, even worse, endless Worf/Ezri scenes of Worf whinging over Dax. All this during the season that was wrapping up the series long arcs.
  • The Prophets, especially concerning "Sacrifice of Angels" and "What You Leave Behind". While some think they were interesting and were another mark of Deep Space Nine's unique flavor, others contest that they acted as a Deus ex Machina and distracted from the Dominion War as the "real" plot.
    • Their omnicidal enemies the Pah-Wraiths, who are presented as "false" prophets who wish to use Dukat as their Anti-Emissary and take back the wormhole. Complete with Pah-Wraith cultists who turned away from the Prophets once the wormhole closed. Unlike the Prophets, who had trouble understanding corporeal morality, the Pah-Wraiths were basically presented as cackling fire demons who knew exactly what they were doing. This resulted in a sort of Blue and Black morality that relied on old fantasy tropes rather than the morally grey setting the show had been so careful to construct.
  • Section 31, mostly in regards to their attempted genocide of the Changelings. Was it justified or not? Cue endless arguments on if it helped or hurt the war effort (would the Female Changeling have surrendered if Odo didn't have the cure, or did the illness just make her more ruthless and eager for a Taking You with Me ending), if genocide can be justified if it's against an implacable enemy, if it was crossing the line for Section 31 to engineer the virus at all. While Word of God has repeatedly established the Canon to be closer to the pro-Section 31 sides of the argument (and even the non-black-ops parts of the Federation were pissed at Picard for refusing a similar measure against the Borg) some fans still draw the line at actual genocide.
  • The addition of Worf. Necessary upgrade to the cast? A little testosterone in a cerebral show? Ron Moore's obnoxious Author Avatar? A whiny version of TNG Worf with none of the fun TNG traits such that he's practically a completely different (and quite dour) character? Though at least everyone tends to agree that his no longer suffering The Worf Effect (at Michael Dorn's own request, having gotten understandably tired of it) was a big improvement.
  • Gul Dukat. Some people find him to be a sympathetic antagonist because of his comedy and love for his daughter Ziyal and because they felt sorry for him when he lost his daughter, status, and mind. Other people see him as vile because of him leading the occupation and coming onto Kira despite being old enough to be her father, having slept with her mother, and, well, leading the occupation.
    • Another debate surrounding Dukat arose following the episode "Waltz" as fans debate whether his story reached a natural conclusion and should have died, as opposed to continuing on as the emissary of the Pah-Wraiths. Many feel this simplifies his character to a complete villian with no greater complexity, while others believe it fits his character and completes his transformation to the complete antithesis of Benjamin Sisko.
  • The character Lenara from Rejoined sparked many discussions over the years, and one of them revolves around the nature of her relationship with Jadzia. Those who want it to be known as Star Trek's first on-screen lesbian kiss are just pointing out the obvious: they are two women kissing who love each other. The detractors characterize it as a cisgendered heterosexual woman (Jadzia) kissing another woman due to being unwillingly influenced by the memories of a cisgendered heterosexual man, suggesting there is a good reason why its illegal. There are also those who think that this qualifies more as a trans-relationship rather than a lesbian one given the aforementioned male memories surfacing. Even then, it's also an assumption Jadzia isn't bisexual herself independent of symbiote. This debate has lapsed over the years as the fandom has become more comfortable with reading characters as queer, with many pointing out that there were previous hints to Jadzia's bisexuality (for instance, Bashir being threatened by her presence when flirting with Leeta, or her joking about stealing from Kasidy from Benjamin) and that Lenara makes it clear in the episode she'd be less interested if Dax were still Curzon, making it clear it's not *just* about their former identities. Regardless, modern fandom consensus is that Jadzia is Bi The Way.

I'm not into this series at all and the text makes my eyes glaze over so I'll just. Leave this here

My thoughts... I'm an old troper, so I was very much active in the fandom at the time, but I'm not so active in the fandom these days. So, I'm giving my responses with the disclaimer that I think other people familiar with the fandom should weigh-in, too.

• Ezri was very controversial because Jadzia's death was controversial. So, it was always going to be an uphill battle to replace Jadzia, and it's very YMMV as to whether Ezri succeeded. At its worst, there were Mary Sue accusations flying around, especially given how quickly the main cast adapted to her and grew to love her. For a while, fans of her had to keep their heads down, or risk being dog-piled. This entry is written as complaining and even downplaying the fact people liked her to complain about her. So, it's a keeper but needs rewriting to be genuinely balanced. Keep but rewrite.
• The Prophets aren't BBC, it's just that some of the episodes they were in are more more disliked than others, which would be a different audience reaction. I think this is more a case of "fandoms never agree is PSOC", and isn't valid. Remove.
• The Pah-Wraiths, on the other hand, were not controversial until Dukat was rewritten to be unambiguously evil after the creators realised how much of a sympathetic villain he'd become, something they hated. So, I I don't think this is a Pah-Wraith issue; it's a "what was done to Dukat" issue, for which the Pah-Wraiths became a big element of that process. I think the dislike of what was done to Dukat was too universal to be a BBC. Remove; roll into Dukat's entry if salvageable.
• Section 31's genocide is a keeper. Keep.
• I think this entry comes close to admitting it's not a genuine BBC (the entry admits that the fact The Worf Effect stopped being used was universally regarded as a good thing). I think this is more a case of a Vocal Minority disliking his presence on DS9 rather than a true BBC. I think it's probably more accurate to say that it was Alexander's portrayal on DS9 that was widely disliked — but the handling of Alexander has been a cause for controversy ever since his first appearance (not in a BBC way, however; the debate is more how best to rewrite him from scratch than whether he was badly handled in the first place, and it covers both TNG and DS9, so is more of a "franchise" issue). Remove.
• Dukat, I think, is a shoehorn. It's taking different stages of his characterisation to make it seem like he's a BBC. Dukat's issue is that the writers accidentally made him sympathetically nuanced. Once they realised how universal this interpretation was, they backlashed and rewrote him as a one-dimensional, unambiguously irredeemable villain. There was a fandom backlash in response. Perhaps it can be rewritten as a debate about whether the writers did the right thing, but I'm not convinced there's a genuinely "equal" fandom split. I was ambivalent and definitely felt marginalised (it didn't feel like there were many supporters or ambivalent fans). What do others think? Even if salvageable, it needs rewriting (and the Pah-Wraiths could be rolled in their decay was to further Dukat's). Lean Remove; if there's a salvageable entry, roll the Pah-Wraiths into it.
• Jadzia and Lenara were controversial at the time, but the original controversy was that, despite it being hyped as a lesbian kiss, the reality came across as a cop-out (portrayed more as het women being influenced by their symbiotes, and the unbreakable rule that Joined Trill aren't allowed to revisit their past relationships anyway added to the sense that this was a token offering rather than the genuine article). Then there was a backlash to that backlash, so to speak (basically a backlash against the LGBTQ+ community for not being satisfied). And that snowballed, which led to the wider debate about how symbiotes and hosts should explore gender and sexual orientation — it opened a can of worms, in short. So, I'd say that this is a keeper, but it could probably be written better. It's true that this has died down over the years, but was definitely an issue at the time. Keep, but rewrite.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Feb 6th 2022 at 5:44:33 AM

I was looking around and found this post on the toy story 3 page and was wondering if Lotso was considered a base breaking character. According to Perfect Princess Girl Fans are a little divided on wether or not he's one of Pixar's best or worst villains. Some fans found him to be a highly entertaining villain with a sympathetic POV and loved how evil he was but some fans hate him for being a tyrannical, sadistic, sociopathic Jerkass with little-to-no redeeming qualities.

Is that true among the fandom?

Is that not the sort of hate that's acceptable for villains?

Plus isn't Love to Hate a thing after all.

I mean, if it's why people hate him then... fair?

But I've never heard of anyone who genuinely hates Lotso, let alone for being evil.

I thought the consensus is that he's considered a great badguy by the fanbase.

Well from what perfectprincessgirl said some fans view Lotso as a scrappy instead of a love to hate villain.

Who even is perfectprincessgirl?

Not a troper, that's for sure. I just checked.

Here's a link to their edit history.

...Oh, huh. I guess it's case sensitive or something? Alright, well, I guess they do in fact exist.

So can Lotso be removed from being called a base breaking character?

Yeah, they should.

My biggest problem with listing the MLP mane six isn't that they shouldn't be listed, it's simply that out of the six, only two seem to get any flack for Aesop Amnesia or vices (Rainbow Dash and Rarity). Fluttershy, Twilight, Pinkie and Applejack are generally well liked with only rare instances where they aren't written well (Daring Doubt comes to mind for Fluttershy with her being Super Gullible and willing to forgive someone who, you know, tried to destroy the world. But that's due to her Incorruptible Pure Pureness and saying anything mean about Shy or characters that abuse her/are rude to her are either Base Breaking or borderline Scrappies. There's a reason Angel was listed as a Scrappy after Putting Your Hoof Down after all, now he's more leaning away from the Scrappy to the point I think he would fit Base-Breaking Character more) and the other three are only hated for one episode things or being Innocently Insensitive whereas saying anything nice or mean about Rainbow Dash or Rarity can lead to flame wars. So I say 4 out of 6 should be removed and Rainbow and Rarity kept because they are GENUINELY both loved and despised.

For Starlight Glimmer, most of the dislike for her I've been seeing is people comparing her to Sunset and being Easily Forgiven despite the fact she witnesses first hand what her actions would cause.

I'm thinking for now we just remove the CMC and Mane Six not named Rainbow Dash or Rarity. Most of the hate I've seen Twilight get comes from either her constantly having to be right, and her becoming an alicorn which has warmed up to fans lately with only S1 purists not liking Alicorn Twilight. It also doesn't help that most art of Rarity or Rainbow Dash normally has dislikes on Derpibooru, while you'd be hard pressed to find art of those four other Mane ponies being disliked.

Spike can probably stay since plenty of people thinks he deserves being abused by the Fandom and maybe Scootaloo too since Scootabuse is an unfortunate Fandom thing.

So for a long time May was listed as a BBC for Pokemon this was her entry

"May. She's either an improved version of Misty with more focus on her nicer aspects, or the attempts to replicate her tomboyish nature get her viewed as inferior to the original. However, the negativity surrounding her replacing Misty largely subsided once Misty appeared with her and they become friends."

I removed this about a month ago as I got the impression the page was admitting she no longer qualified. However I'm worried I was too hasty and that it simply needed exapanding. Are there any people who were following Advanced Generation when it was going on? Was the hate SOLEY on replacing Misty or were there other reasons?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 10th 2022 at 10:28:25 AM

YMMV.Initial D

• Base-Breaking Character
  • Fans of Takumi see him as a prodigal, down-to-earth street racer with various tricks up his sleeves and is admired for his levelheadedness in every situation he comes across, but detractors find him a bland, boring Invincible Hero who only loses twice with no strong personality - that his battles are rather formulaic and predictable compared to others is another factor. A third party brushes aside his personality traits and writing fumbles and are just here to see him perform his Signature Moves and fancy tricks.
  • Itsuki is either a loyal Sidekick and friend in need for Takumi, who takes the poorest consequences like a champ, or an obnoxious lecher that doesn't fit with the show's tone and narrative (at least until Second Stage), whose sole purpose is to be yanked-off from any chance of romance when it's given to him. In all fairness, most of the criticism from Itsuki's naysayers are directed not towards his characteristics, but rather how the story treats him.
  • Of all the vehicles seen in the series, the signature Toyota Sprinter Trueno AE86: fans were disappointed its Real Life counterpart doesn't live up to its fictional example, claiming Initial D has overblown what's been there, yet ignore variables such as track conditions and the fact that most of the car's spoils comes from Takumi's own driving prowess than the car itself^Note By Final Stage, it has a serious amount of overhaul retrofitted for Project D's specifications, including a one-time engine swap in Second Stage. Even with an extensive amount of skill, the AE86 has dated specs and is relatively underpowered, such that most of the ones seen in actual competitions are heavily modified to meet modern standards.

The first two are fine, but the AE86? That isn't a character. That's the second time I've seen a car treated like a character on this wiki, the other being the Aston Martin Vanish.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Feb 12th 2022 at 3:46:16 PM

In response to this post, Riku is considered not polarizing enough to qualify, so I'm removing him.

However, sora is worthy of this trope, but there isn't enough information as to why he counts. We need some who's a fan of this character to explain why roughly half the fandom likes him.

I'm not a Sora fan personally, as I've always felt Riku was the more compelling character, and can also attest to him being the more well-liked of the two.

But the general way I've perceived the Sora divide is that it stems from his being a textbook Stock Shōnen Hero. For half of the fanbase that trope is exactly his appeal. It's a popular one for a reason, especially among children. That or they are Yaoi Fangirls who find him an attractive Bishōnen. Likewise the other half hate it because it makes him a Cliché Storm and thus bland and boring.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 13th 2022 at 5:43:56 AM

Hi hello, first time here.

Does Master Xehanort count? I added and expanded upon his entry, but I worry that my bias is showing too much and comes across as me complaining. Does his entry come across as this or does he count?

Also kinda first time here but would Claire Rieveldt from the Trails Series count as a base breaking character?

I know this series is relatively obscure in the west so I don't think there will be someone else that can corroborate but I'll give you the general details regarding the character and the situation surrounding her and leave you to make a decision.

Bascically to give the cliff notes version, she was fairly liked as a NPC before the third Cold Steel Game and some people even wanted her to be a romance option for the protagionist. However, at the end of the third game she betrays the party for the Big Bad(or rather supposed big bad, we find out in the fourth game that things are much more complicated), who is basically her father figure. In the fourth Cold Steel Game she teeters on a Heel Realization from time to time but never really defects to the good side(or even doubles down on villainy). Long story short, she is given a chance to redeem herself and the next game shows her working towards redemption, but with a lot of guilt in her heart about what happened.

The reaction has been...rather divisive. You have people that really hate her, either because they find her reasoning unsympathetic(especially compared to another character that despite having Undying Loyalty to their father figure made a genuine Heel–Face Turn..I haven't gotten through Cold Steel IV fully but I have my suspicions as to who this other "better moral subsitute" is from what I know of the plot), feel she got off too easy and felt she should have just died in the end or just find her to be poorly written

...on the other hand, she does have a decent amount vocal defenders through that point out she had a legitimate Freudian Excuse as to why she is never conflicted enough to join the good guys and sticks by the villains side, believe that her faith in the supposed Big Bad is given some credence by them being an anti-villain in the first place, find her a compelling morally grey Anti-Villain, and feel she deserves a chance to get a happy ending.

I am wondering if this would be an example of BBC from what I can corroborate.

I mean, I've watched a lengthy playthrough of this series so I could say my own personal opinions, but that's not exactly useful, and apart from one weird data point on AO3 I know nothing about the fandom. So I'm not quite sure what you're asking for if you can't tell on your own if she qualifies.

I was look over the Pokemon Anime Base-Breaking Character section and wondering if it's too bloated and I have to question this entry

"Mallow, Lana, and Sophocles all get this to some extent. This is mainly due to the fact that in contrast to previous series, which would just have a main cast of 3-4 people, Sun and Moon has a cast of six to take care of. Some find this refreshing, enjoy all of the different characters' quirks and dreams, and feel that it allows for a much more diverse and varied cast. Others, however, dislike the uneven limelight, with the three in particular criticized for their stagnancy, and sometimes considered less interesting characters than the more dynamic trio of Ash, Kiawe and Lillie who have whittled focus as a result of their presence. By Ultra Legends their reputation calmed mildly due to an improvement in limelight episodes and breakthroughs as Trainers, though some still regard them as dead weight and less interesting protagonists."

It seems to be less about the characters and more about screentime distribution. Do you feel they still qualify as BBC? And if they do what's to stop the last few mains who aren't on the page (Brock, Tracey, May, Dawn, Clemont and Kiawe are the only companions not listed)

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 17th 2022 at 9:59:05 AM

So I was checking out the YMMV section of Attack on Titan and I found this entry for Base-Breaking Character

• Gabi. At first, she seemed to be a character fans either appreciate as a tragic Foil to Eren, or consider The Scrappy for her arrogance, violent tendencies, and unwillingness to consider Falco's point of view. Then...she goes on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge and ends up killing fan-favorite Sasha. Suffice to say, the fandom is very divided on her.

While the entry does mention that she has fans, it mostly seems to be a rant on why her detractors hate her. Also, the entry potholes The Scrappy, which I assume is when fans near-universally hate the character which doesn't seem to be the case here. So maybe expand on why her fans like her and replace "or consider The Scrappy" with "or they hate her"? Thanks.

Edited by spyland2 on Feb 18th 2022 at 10:01:54 AM

The following examples were recently added for Loki (2021):

• Loki himself. While he is still popular, the way that his character is handled in the show has left fans divided. Detractors disliked how the show constantly treats him as the resident Butt-Monkey, the constant emphasis on his woobie-ishness, and the fact that much of his agency in the show gets overshadowed by Sylvie. Defenders on the other hand point out that these moments are a meta-deconstruction of Loki's character that helps him develop into a more heroic figure much like his Sacred Timeline Counterpart. A third camp didn't mind the intention behind this but disliked how rushed it was in execution.
• Sylvie has quickly become one of the most controversial characters in the MCU as the first season went on. Some fans see her as a sympathetic and endearing character due to her horrid life on the run from the TVA in addition to being a formidable force in battle, while others loathe her for taking away a lot of focus from Loki himself on his own show, and for being a static character with barely any development. Sylvie's choice in the finale is viewed either as a justified action taken to destroy a restrictive system, or as Revenge Before Reason against a lesser evil that only made things worse. Her romance with Loki in the show has led to a Ship-to-Ship Combat with fans of the Loki Mobius pairing, with both sides promoting extreme interpretations of Sylvie's character (either good or bad) to prove that their pairing is more "moral".

I do agree that Sylvie counts, but I think the titual character's example does not meet the criteria:

• There are no "Two (or more) vocal, almost equally sized factions". The majority likes the character or is indifferent to him, there is a relatively small group of haters. The example states it as well: "He is still popular".
• There is no "Little to no Middle ground", but rather a wide range of opinions. Again, the example states it as well: "A third camp didn't mind the intention behind this but disliked how rushed it was in execution."
• As a consequence, there is no "vicious conflict".

Should we remove the first example (while keeping the second one)?

Edited by Asherinka on Feb 19th 2022 at 12:47:01 PM