The Scrappy Cleanup

• Breaking Bad:
  • Marie. She never shuts up, and what she says is usually irrelevant and self-centered. One of Skyler's most popular moments was channeling the audience and yelling "SHUT UP, MARIE!"
  • Skyler herself received her fair share of the fandom's disdain, as she starts out a shrill Wet Blanket Wife and much of the conflict in the first couple seasons comes from her inability to allow Walt any privacy. Her taking up smoking while pregnant and cheating on Walt out of spite towards him trying to provide for their family (in the beginning, at least) certainly didn't help either.
  • While both examples above at least have their fans and sympathy from some viewers, Ted Beneke, Skyler’s misteress gets almost no sympathy from anyone. Between being an idiot who makes things worse for his company and others, has in the past been mentioned as a sexual predator who harassed his employees, having sex with a then still married woman, and having no regrets whatsoever about it, gets a free check to absolve him from any trouble from the IRS but instead uses it to buy a new car, and is unappreciative when Skyler reveals she did it for him, and being a Dirty Coward about all the above, barely anyone showed a shred of sympathy towards him when he gets paralyzed.

Ted I'm fine with, I don't have much attachment to being listed either way. But Skyler and Marie? I think can go. They both have entries on Rescued from the Scrappy Heap detailing why they no longer fit under The Scrappy, and over the years both have lost a lot of the hatedom they had during the show's early days. Fans were hella happy for Marie's cameo in Better Call Saul, for instance.

We cool with cutting Skyler and Marie from this?

Edited by Ravok on Jan 24th 2023 at 1:46:58 AM

Yeah, I agree with moving them as long as the controversy is recorded in some form. I think Skyler better constitutes a Base-Breaking Character rather than The Scrappy anyway.

Yeah, I'd say Base-Breaking Character would suit them much better, myself.

Honestly, I don’t think any of them count - Marie and Skyler have effectively been Vindicated by History (to the point that Marie’s return in the BCS finale was an And The Fandom Rejoiced moment) and with Ted, you’re not supposed to like him in the first place - if anything’s he’s Love to Hate. Marie can definitely go under BBC, but in my experience Skyler’s reception now is basically universally positive

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 24th 2023 at 9:38:34 AM

I'd be cool with removing all 3, Skyler and Marie were my main objections but yeah, Ted being kind of a Love to Hate Dirty Coward makes me think he doesn't quite fit, either. I'd approve of moving only Marie to BBC if we think Skyler isn't as divisive anymore (a viewpoint I'd overall agree with).

The first two sound more like Base-Breaking Characters and I'd cut Ted assuming he's a Hate Sink.

In my experience Skyler is still somewhat divisive these days, albeit it's for more complicated and nuanced reasons than "evil bitch who criticized Draco in Leather Pants Walt". The most common lines of critique I've seen from naysayers is that she's a flat character who doesn't possess much agency outside of being Walt's put-upon wife, especially in contrast to Kim Wexler who is seen as the Improved Second Attempt version of her, or that her wavering in the first three-and-a-half seasons makes her come off as a hypocrite who alternately opposed and abetted Walt as it was convenient to her while trying to maintain the moral high ground the entire time (and even those naysayers agree her rejection of Walt after that point was completely justified as a case of Everyone Has Standards).

Marie comes off as a straightforward example of Rescued from the Scrappy Heap. In my experience she was generally considered annoying in earlier seasons (with the difference in opinions being more about how forgiving people were of her; the harshest opinions despised her, while the most positive simply didn't mind her but didn't have strong opinions in favor of her either). After the events of season 5 though, it seems like most of the fandom became very sympathetic and supportive of her outside of the most fanatical haters.

You're right that while Ted is hated for his frustrating buffoonery, it does seem like an Intended Audience Reaction.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 24th 2023 at 4:43:16 AM

Another criticism of Skylar I've seen is that initially she has no idea her husband is a drug dealer. From her perspective, Walt's acting strange after getting a terminal cancer diagnosis. But on the other hand we have the "My Name is Skylar White Yo" meme, which is largely positive.

Is this where one goes to nominate Scrappies or just to fix or remove added examples?

Both really.

Okay I have a few Scrappy ideas for Star Wars but I'll wait to see if my post on the discussion page gets any traction before double dipping

These was added back to

• Princess Marina Ismail is generally not a very well liked character in the fandom, with some even despising her and finding her irritating due to seeing her as passive to the point of being useless to the plot, bland and a pale imitation of earlier Gundam female characters such as Relena Darlain Peacecraft or Lacus Clyne, and singing a song that is impossible to take seriously (see Narm.)
• Andrei Smirnov is possibly the most widely abhorred character in the series for being a complete Jerkass who took on a very possessive and sexist chauvinist attitude towards Louise and committing patricide on his own father for his percieved "betrayal" and also violating a cease-fire by killing his father's friend despite said friend having helped Andrei get into the military to start with, which the fandom considers to be Moral Event Horizon crossing actions by him.

Marina was cut as she's Americans Hate Tingle, the YMMV pages noting she's one of the two most popular female characters in Japan "ranking eighth and tenth (respectively) on a April 2008 Newtype magazine poll for the top ten anime females". I assume safe to re-cut.

Andrei I removed awhile back as killing his father was intentionally unlikable moment which he get called out and realized his wrongness in (his relationship with Louise is also likely meant to be wrong). He also gets a Death Equals Redemption in The Movie which many saw as Rescued from the Scrappy Heap, not sure if it was universal enough or if the the time before redemption was long enough that being Rescued doesn't disqualify him (there about 1 year since he became so hated and The Movie so Animation Lead Time suggests it was planned prior as opposed to a after the fact fix which I'd say disqualifies). But the added back entry did add additional unaddressed complaints also listed under Unintentionally Unsympathetic, so what to do with it?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jan 28th 2023 at 7:07:06 AM

I say still cut Andrei. He seems pretty clearly portrayed as a villain to me, at least in terms of what the entry is talking about.

I have two potential ideas for the Star Wars Scrappy page https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TheScrappy/StarWars

• Nute Gunray from the Prequel Trilogy is widely hated for being a generic villain that takes screentime and attention away from much cooler and more intimidating villains in the Prequels such as Darth Maul and Count Dooku. Being the leader of the Trade Federation Gunray is also the impetus of the Prequel's widely mocked focus on taxation and politics. Not helping matters in Gunray's voice is uncomfortably similar to Japanese caricatures from the early 20th century.
• While Rhuk was an Ensemble Dark Horse in Legends for being a Noble Demon who killed Thrawn his incarnation in Star Wars Rebels got wide negative reception. Fans familiar with Legends hate him for removing his sympathetic traits and intelligence reducing him to Thrawn's muscle. While those unfamiliar with him in Legends hate him for constantly breaking the pace of several episodes with long drawn-out fights that end with the heroes choosing to either flee or simply incapacitate him despite the heroes having murdered hundreds, if not thousands of Stormtroopers throughout the show without issue. Even when Sabine and Zeb successfully capture Rhuk in DUME they chose to send him back to the Empire in spray paint rather than capitalize on their capture for interrogation. Ultimately, Rhuk was an unneeded addition to the show that served no purpose beyond acting as a Red Herring to how Thrawn would be defeated and wasting the viewer's time.

This isn't just my opinion looking through various places for Star Wars discussion shows these characters are widely hated.

The first one is pretty good but it could do without the link to Unfortunate Implications since that trope is now Flame Bait. As for Rhuk, I think it would not hurt to trim it down a bit so that it will be less of a Wall of Text and make it a litle less salty such as getting rid of the bit complaining about the main characters "murdering"(which is a very questionable use of the term to say the least because the heroes are armed combatants in an insurgency against a fascist dictatorship) thousands of Stormtroopers.

I'm not trying to say the Stormtroopers don't deserve it I'm just saying that it's weird they draw the line at a named character. Both Rhuk and the Stormtroopers are serving a fascist Empire willing to destroy planets. But do you have any ideas as to how to get the point for Rhuk across while condensing things?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 31st 2023 at 10:10:02 AM

Just get rid of the part complaining about the Stormtroopers and combine the last two sentences into one that details that he had no purpose other than be a Red Herring.

I'm just worried the complaints about constantly sparing him won't make sense unless one is aware that the cast of Rebels doesn't have an issue with killing

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 31st 2023 at 11:12:55 AM

Then replace "murdered" with "killing" which is a more neutral term.

Okay how's this sound?

• While Rhuk was a popular character in Legends for being a Noble Demon who betrayed and killed Thrawn his incarnation in Star Wars Rebels got wide negative reception. Fans familiar with Legends hate him for removing his sympathetic traits and intelligence reducing him to Thrawn's muscle. While those unfamiliar with him in Legends hate him for constantly breaking the pace of several episodes with long drawn-out fights that end with the heroes choosing to either flee or simply incapacitate him despite the heroes having killed hundreds of Stormtroopers throughout the show without issue. Even when the heroes have an opportunity to kill or capture Rhuk in DUME they instead send him back to the Empire in spray paint. Ultimately, Rhuk was an unneeded addition to the show that served no purpose beyond acting as a Red Herring for how Thrawn would be defeated.

Should I keep the Stormtrooper comparison or should the "capture or kill" bit be enough?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 31st 2023 at 11:45:56 AM

Much better. Keep the Stormtroopers.

Honestly, I don't think that's a good example in the first place. Have I seen some criticism of this (above and beyond the "It's Star Wars" baseline)? Yes. But it's more a plot criticism than people really hating the character as such, particularly since there's not really that much to him to begin with.

Also, Rukh was never a Noble Demon type.

He didn't kill Thrawn because he violated Rukh's own code of honor, he killed him because Thrawn personally fucked up his home planet and kept his people in a state of semi-slavery, while also having no real respect for them (at one point, Rukh overhears Thrawn deciding to just throw more Noghri bodies at the problem of capturing Leia, not caring how many of them get merked in the process). The Noghri code of honor is basically "obey your mother and anyone your mother tells you to", which are such basic tenets they hardly rise to the level of an actual code.

I doubt anyone really liked Rukh that much to begin with, as has been pointed out, he's hardly much of a character. He's more of a character as device thing.

From the Live Action Movie page regarding the Godzilla movies:

• Likewise, there's Jet Jaguar ("His crimefighting covers up a basic insecurity"). Think Ultraman + Jack Nicholson - the entertainment value of both. He has picked up something of an ironic fandom, though, as between his weird design, surprising incompetence, silly theme song, and craptastic first outing, he's a rich well of So Bad, It's Good — to the point that his appearance in the comics, punctuated by "NEXT ISSUE: PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH", made people very happy.
• King Caesar qualifies for certain fans, in both of his appearances. In Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla, he can only be awakened by an extraordinarily long song, and when he finally does get up, he gets his ass kicked by Mechagodzilla until Godzilla intervenes, despite being hyped for the entire film as a world-saving guardian which the characters had been working to reawaken. And in Godzilla: Final Wars, he is mostly bashed for having an even more laughable design, besides doing nothing again, other than getting beaten (in a kaiju football match no less).

Now, while I don't really like Jet Jaguar myself, I'm not really sure he qualifies as a Scrappy. He has a fair amount of fans, and I don't think all of that is "ironic" as the entry claims. And as for King Caesar, he's listed as an Ensemble Darkhorse on some other pages and isn't really a character I see people trash on often in the Godzilla fandom.

Done.

Edited by marston on Jan 31st 2023 at 11:20:08 AM

The bit about "certain fans" and "ironic fandom" are both just weasel words, because there's really no difference between enjoying something and enjoying it ironically if you're still enjoying it. Jet Jaguar is So Bad He's Good, which is not a rare character type. And "certain fans" are pretty much under requirements for a Scrappy, which should be more like 'most to all fans.'

I would cut both entries.