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sgamer82 from Meridian, ID
May 18th 2018 at 8:00:28 AM

A more general question: Does it count as a Knight of Cerebus if the series goes back to lighthearted and fluffy once the threat is passed?

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
AdamElY from Westerville, Ohio Relationship Status: Singularity
May 18th 2018 at 8:06:04 AM

crazysamaritan and fighteer, about Rite of Spring not being lighthearted, Secret of NIMH is also not light-hearted but Jenner is considered a Knight of Cerebus.

crazysamaritan, I think you mean it and not they by both T-Rex and the gorilla.

fighteer, Knight of Cerebus' film section needs to be edited.

Better examples of that trope are Judge Doom from Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Shen from Kung Fu Panda 2, Lord Beckett in Pirates of the Caribbean, Lotso from Toy Story 3, Sharptooth from Land Before Time, Mor'du from Brave (first, Merida was having a light-hearted moment with her mom but then Mor'du arrived, causing the Mood Whiplash and biting off King Fergus' leg), the bear from Fox and the Hound, Varian from Tangled: The Series when he turned evil, Shere Khan, Maleficent, Voldemort, and Smaug.

The Queen from Snow White is more a Vile Villain, Saccharine Show than Knight of Cerebus.

There needs to be a super trope for Knight of Cerebus and Vile Villain, Saccharine Show.

edited 18th May '18 8:08:28 AM by AdamElY

Adam El-Yousseph
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
May 18th 2018 at 8:39:01 AM

Judge Doom is not a KoC because Who Framed Roger Rabbit is not an ongoing series. It's a single film, so there's not enough time to establish a "lighthearted, episodic tone" as a norm that is then violated.

edited 18th May '18 8:39:09 AM by Fighteer

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May 18th 2018 at 8:42:18 AM

Found this in Skewed Priorities for Samurai Jack.

  • When Jack and Ashi end up trapped in the belly of the beast in XCV, Ashi was solely focused on killing Jack rather than their predicament forcing Jack to keep her in chains.

It's made extremely clear throughout the season that Ashi and her sisters were brainwashed to serve Aku above all else, and with that Ashi really doesn't care what happens to her as long as Jack is dead. Should this really count? We may as well list every example of Taking You with Me in that case.

edited 18th May '18 8:42:41 AM by ChaoticQueen

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
May 18th 2018 at 9:23:10 AM

A more general question: Does it count as a Knight of Cerebus if the series goes back to lighthearted and fluffy once the threat is passed?
I almost considered it a requirement that comedy returns when when the Knight left the screen, but decided to err on the side of "fewest requirements possible".
crazysamaritan, I think you mean it and not they by both T-Rex and the gorilla.
No, "it" refers to inanimate objects with no characterization. I use "they" to refer to characters/people with indeterminate genders rather than assuming an incorrect address.
Judge Doom from Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Shen from Kung Fu Panda 2, Lord Beckett in Pirates of the Caribbean, Lotso from Toy Story 3, Sharptooth from Land Before Time, Mor'du from Brave (first, Merida was having a light-hearted moment with her mom but then Mor'du arrived, causing the Mood Whiplash and biting off King Fergus' leg), the bear from Fox and the Hound, Varian from Tangled: The Series when he turned evil, Shere Khan, Maleficent, Voldemort, and Smaug.
Another list of names/works where you fail to give us the courtesy of Wiki Links, much less context.
Mor'du from Brave (first, Merida was having a light-hearted moment with her mom but then Mor'du arrived, causing the Mood Whiplash and biting off King Fergus' leg),
This is the only example with adequate context to determine Knight of Cerebus status. I think it fits, but more detail would improve example, like the fact that Mor'du is never defeated in physical combat, Merida and her mother must resolve their inner conflict to defeat him. Fighteer probably disagrees, and I'd remove it on that basis.
Judge Doom is not a Ko C because Who Framed Roger Rabbit is not an ongoing series. It's a single film, so there's not enough time to establish a "lighthearted, episodic tone" as a norm that is then violated.
I disagree, here's how I would write the example:

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
May 18th 2018 at 9:30:26 AM

The first line of Knight of Cerebus' description is this: "In order to add more drama to a series which has been, up until that moment, lighthearted and comedic in nature[...]"

Emphasis mine: "series", not "individual work". It is inarguable that Brave, Roger Rabbit, etc., are intended to have those villains all along. They aren't added later to up the stakes: they are the stakes from the very beginning. The early calm before the storm and/or the implied normalcy of the characters' lives prior to the events of the story are not relevant here; or rather, they are part of establishing the status quo that the antagonist disrupts.

If we redefine KoC to mean "the point when the real villain, threat, or problem is introduced", then it would apply to literally every dramatic work ever. That definition cannot function as a trope.

edited 18th May '18 11:59:12 AM by Fighteer

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TheNerfGuy Kadaj 5 the Nerf Guy from N/A
Kadaj 5 the Nerf Guy
May 18th 2018 at 10:15:49 AM

A good example of a KoC would be Charlotte from Puella Magi Madoka Magica; up until her appearance, the series was a standard magical girl show. Her killing off Mami Tomoe in a gruesome manner marked where the series turned into the dark deconstruction it is known as today.

Is that so?
crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
May 18th 2018 at 10:19:36 AM

[example works] are intended to have those villains all along. They aren't added later to up the stakes: they are the stakes from the very beginning.
This feels inconsistent to me. Trigun episodes starts with episodic storytelling, then moves to a Story Arc about Vash's background. This shift was always intended. By the quoted metric, however, it couldn't be an example because the Creator intended that Tone Shift.

Knight of Cerebus needs an extreme cleanup either way, but I want to hold off until you've said if the series format or the change in episodic to consistent storyarc format is the decisive factor.

I have to be clear, because Roger Rabbit is actually part of a book series, but it is never presented in episodic storytelling.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
May 18th 2018 at 11:10:38 AM

The trope could apply to the book series of Roger Rabbit, of course, if it otherwise fits the criteria. The film is not part of that series, and no reference is made to any larger continuity within it.

I don't know that I would say that Knight of Cerebus has to have been unintended originally. That's a difficult hurdle to pass because it requires knowledge of the creator's intent. Some series are meticulously plotted from the start, some are plotted only in general terms, and some are made up as they go along.

If we aren't going to apply a creator intent standard, then we have to stick to the original definition: KoC is an antagonist that suddenly and drastically changes the tone of a serial work. It must be abrupt, significant, and lasting. It doesn't have to stay dark forever, but it should have enduring consequences, such as Character Death, a large shift in the status quo, or a major raising of the stakes.

"Abrupt" is important. If there's a ton of foreshadowing right from the beginning of a series that things aren't as lighthearted as they seem, it can't count.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the trope has decayed, since people just love to shoehorn examples into this sort of thing.

edited 18th May '18 11:17:35 AM by Fighteer

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crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
May 18th 2018 at 11:34:01 AM

The trope could apply to the book series of Roger Rabbit, of course, if it otherwise fits the criteria. The film is not part of that series, and no reference is made to any larger continuity within it.
The film storyline really is part of the books, but that's not really important.
Is the shift from mediums, such as Big Damn Movie, a disqualification for the trope?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
May 18th 2018 at 11:36:30 AM

It depends on whether the Big Damn Movie is in continuity with an ongoing series — in other words, if the film raises the stakes, does the series itself shift in tone as a consequence? This would be Knight of Cerebus with respect to the series, but film audiences not familiar with it would have no context to realize that the trope is in use.

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crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
May 18th 2018 at 11:42:24 AM

Ah, more of the "permanent consequences" that you mentioned before. So a Grand Finale wouldn't fit because there's no effects after that storyarc?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York
Musician/Composer
May 18th 2018 at 2:00:32 PM

In Fairy Tail, Panther Lily and Hades are villains who were once heroic characters.

In Hades's case, he was a heroic wizard in Fairy Tail Zero, but since he becomes too obsessed with finding the source of magic, he leaves Fairy Tail to lead Grimoire Heart and become a straight up villain. For Panther Lily, he was once a heroic knight of Extalia, but when he was banished from his homeland, he decided to side with the Royal Military and try to exterminate mankind.

Can these examples be considered a true Face–Heel Turn?

No matter who you are, always be yourself.
May 18th 2018 at 2:55:41 PM

Speaking of Knight of Cerebus, I originally removed a Knight of Cerebus entry from Magica's profile in DuckTales 2017: Antagonists because she only made two appearances as of this writing, does not actually cause a tonal shift in the series, and I think the person who added her was writing under the assumption that she's a Knight of Cerebus because she comes across as more dangerous than the other villains.

The entry got added back in, though I think the person who added it was someone different and possibly unaware that it got removed before. I want to remove it again, but first I thought I'd run it by this thread just to make sure there actually is misuse.

AdamElY from Westerville, Ohio Relationship Status: Singularity
May 18th 2018 at 3:54:33 PM

1. Even though I already added bear cubs to the page Ridiculously Cute Critter, do you think they are Ridiculously Cute Critters?

2. Even though I added that and edited the page Unpleasant Animal Counterpart, do you think Sheep vs Coyotes, Sheep vs Wolves, and Penguins vs Skuas are good examples of that trope?

Adam El-Yousseph
May 18th 2018 at 4:05:52 PM

Can I get some feedback on this post, please?

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
May 18th 2018 at 4:17:41 PM

[up]I think killing someone is serious enough that not considering your own situation is not more skewed than wanting to kill someone in the first place. So I don't think that's an example.

Check out my fanfiction!
May 18th 2018 at 6:53:53 PM

Are the following examples from The New 52: Future's End being used correctly?:

  • Eldritch Abomination: Brainiac is revealed to be a lovecraftian god dwelling outside of space and time; all his incarnations therefore were just probes sent to collect knowledge.
  • Stealth Parody: Possibly, considering it has many conspicuous Troll Fic hallmarks like a misspelled title, a meandering plot, grimdark edginess, a character called Fifty Sue and a conclusion that renders everything pointless.
  • Unnecessarily Creepy Robot: Brother EYE goes the psychological horror of mutilating superheroes rather than the ensuing robots being efficient in any way.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
May 18th 2018 at 7:53:29 PM

[up][up][up][up] Ridiculously Cute Critter should be a fictional trope primarily, since the "ridiculous" part is subjective when applied to Real Life. Some people find various animals cute, some don't.

Unpleasant Animal Counterpart... is that even a thing? I guess so, but the list of counterparts is way too long and should go in an Analysis subpage. I have no opinion on the specific cases you've mentioned.


[up]

edited 18th May '18 7:59:41 PM by Fighteer

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May 18th 2018 at 8:50:13 PM

So should the Unnecessarily Creepy Robot example be commented out or just cut entirely?

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
May 18th 2018 at 9:13:02 PM

If you recognize the work and can fix the example, do so. Another option is to message the user who added it and ask them to fix it. Barring those, better to delete a bad example than leave it be in the hopes that someone will correct it later.

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AdamElY from Westerville, Ohio Relationship Status: Singularity
May 19th 2018 at 5:49:20 AM

Fighteer, you’re right about everything. Knight of Cerebus needs a makeover and should just be series that is light-hearted until villain does evil act that darkens the tone and that villain is played seriously unlike the bumbling and comedic villains earlier.

Ridiculously Cute Critter should just be fictional even though I feel like squeezing bear cubs and think they are ridiculously cute critters. Do you also feel like squeezing bear cubs?

The only bear cubs I don’t think are squeezable are sloth bear cubs.

The list in Unpleasant Animal Counterpart needs an Analysis page.

edited 19th May '18 5:52:23 AM by AdamElY

Adam El-Yousseph
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
May 19th 2018 at 9:28:56 AM

[up] Go ahead and try hugging a bear cub. Once its mother is finished with you, you might not have the same opinion.

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
May 19th 2018 at 12:00:44 PM

Just to note here as well, I commented out a lot of examples on Ridiculously Cute Critter for not having context. Links are not context. "This is cute" is not context. "This has oversized eyes" is context. "The cuteness of this has this effect on the plot/characters" is context.

edited 19th May '18 12:02:05 PM by AnotherDuck

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