Note: If a newly launched trope was already given a No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only designation while it was being drafted on the Trope Launch Pad, additions to the proper index do not need to go through this thread. Instead, simply ask the mods to add the trope via this thread
.
This is the thread to report tropes with problematic Real Life sections.
Common problems include:
- Conversation on the Main Page
- Flame Bait
- Squicky content
- Impossible in Real Life
Real Life sections on the wiki are kept as long as they don't become a problem. If you find an article with such problems, report it here. Please note that the purpose of this thread is to clean up and maintain real life sections, not raze them. Cutting should be treated as a last resort, so please only suggest cutting RL sections or a subset thereof you think the examples in question are completely unsalvageable.
If historical RL examples are not causing any problems, consider whether it would be better to propose a No Recent Examples, Please! (via this forum thread) for RL instead of NRLEP. If RL examples are causing problems only for certain subjects, consider whether a Limited Real Life Examples Only restriction would be preferable to NRLEP.
If you think a trope should be No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only, then this thread is the place to discuss it. However, please check Keep Real Life Examples first to see if it has already been brought up in the past. If not, state the reasons and add it to the crowner.
Before adding to the crowner:
- The trope should be proposed in the thread, along with reasons for why a crowner is necessary instead of a cleanup.
- There must be support from others in thread.
- Any objections should be addressed.
- Allow a minimum of 24 hours for discussion.
When adding to the crowner:
- Be sure to add the trope name, a link to where the discussion started, the reasons for crownering, whether the restriction being proposed is NRLEP or LRLEO (and in the latter case, which subject(s) the restriction would be for), and the date added.
- Announce in thread that you are adding the item.
- An ATT advert should be made as well (batch items together if more than one trope goes up in a day).
In order for a crowner to pass:
- Must have been up for a minimum of a week
- There must be a 2:1 ratio
- If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple extra days to see if any more votes come in
- Once passed, tropes must be indexed on the appropriate NRLEP index
- Should the vote fail, the trope should be indexed on KRLE page
Sex Tropes, Rape and Sexual Harassment Tropes, and Morality Tropes are banned from having RL sections so tropes under those indexes don't need a crowner vote.
As per Real Life Troping, we never trope unscripted real life sports — so sports tropes where RL examples would only apply to those scenarios don't need a crowner vote.
Crowner entries that have already been called will have "(CLOSED)" appended to them — and are no longer open for discussion.
After bringing up a trope for discussion, please wait at least a day for feedback before adding it to the crowner.
NRLEP tag:
%%https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
LRLEO tag:
%%The following restrictions apply: [list restriction(s) here]
%%https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
Notes:
- This thread is not for general discussion regarding policies for Real Life sections or crowners. Please take those conversations to this Wiki Talk thread.
- Do not try to overturn previous No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only decisions without a convincing argument.
- As mentioned here, the consensus is that NRLEP warnings in trope page descriptions can use bold text so that they stand out.
- The [[noreallife]] tag doesn't currently work. This is a deprecated tag that was introduced many years ago — originally, it would have displayed a NRLEP warning banner when you edited the page. However, there's been some staff conversation (Feb 2024) about what a new technical solution might look like, so we'd advise against deleting these from pages, at least until we have a decision as to whether it'll be fixed or replaced.
Edited by Mrph1 on May 13th 2024 at 9:30:24 AM
While I agree with the general idea that Strawman U ought to be NRLEP, I think that it's completely impossible to make it really NRLEP without going through TRS. The archetypical categories are even named after RL colleges, and in practice a lot of the examples really are Bland Name Products of the real schools.
I will agree with crownering Empty Shell though.
id prefer the leave the fake uni names, but a simple "left-wing uni" and "right-wing uni" also works
that said, as someone who grew up in cali, everyone uses berkeley as "angry left-wing uni" par excellence, even far south cali and other states
Edited by MsOranjeDiscoDancer on Nov 29th 2022 at 9:16:04 AM
hail, holy queen of the sea, you're whirling-in-rags, you're vast and you're sad
The fake names aren't so much the problem, we have other NRLEP tropes still named after something from real life.
But the lists of actual schools should go from the description at absolute minimum. Stereotypes on stereotypes.
The list of schools on Strawman U aren't examples, they're part of the description. The actual example list doesn't even have an RL folder, just an Other, which doesn't even list schools.
You should take this up with the Trope Description thread, since there is nothing for us to do here anyways.
EDIT: Per ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
any discussion on Strawman U should be taken to the Trope Description thread.
Edited by laserviking42 on Nov 29th 2022 at 3:03:52 PM
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Funny you mention that, I recently took Strawman U to that thread myself separately.
The Enforcer
Past-Life Memories feels iffy in terms of possibility. Its whole section acts as though it's been verified irl and I'm pretty sure that's not convincingly the case. Also, I don't think "people research this IRL" really counts as an example.
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
Man in the Yellow Hat
What about Viewer Species Confusion and Mix-and-Match Critters?
I'm not sure I'll be able to locate it since I think it was an ATT thread, but I'm pretty sure that already came up before once and was specifically decided to be, if not cut, at least seriously rewritten to change the "this is totally real" tone to "some people do believe in this".
Edit: Here, here, and within this thread. Definitely a problem before, definitely something that was supposed to have been addressed already, from what I can tell.
Edited by nrjxll on Nov 30th 2022 at 6:30:55 AM
I'm actually a little on the fence about crownering Past-Life Memories. I at least think it might be worth mentioning a couple of the more serious research on the topic in the description. It should be rewritten to be a little bit less universally
Viewer Species Confusion is a YMMV trope. Should it have RL examples at all? (Even if it's not verboten, I'd support crownering it.)
I feel like we've talked about Mix-and-Match Critters before, there was support, but then it just got lost. I'd agree that it ought to get crownered for being Narrative and Impossible.
- Sad Clown: Characterization, a staggering amount of celebrity gossip about mental illnesses/trauma
- Kindly Vet: Characterization, Moral Judgement, Too Common
- Giant Enemy Crab: Impossible in real life,
- Cybernetics Eat Your Soul: Moral Judgement, Impossible by modern/near future tech
- We Will Use WikiWords in the Future: A future predictions only trope, just a meaningless list of Wiki Words.
- Do Wrong, Right: Narrative, Moral Judgement
- Must Have Caffeine: Too Common
- Christmas Miracle: Narrative, "Good things happening at Christmas" is Too Common
- Adaptation Displacement: Impossible in real life
- Contralto Of Danger: Narrative, Moral Judgement, current RL examples are just women with deep voices which is Chairs.
- Deal with the Devil: Impossible IRL, examples are misuse.
- I'm Having Soul Pains: Impossible IRL, examples are misuse
- Empty Shell: Impossible IRL, calling someone an "empty shell" seems cruel
Personally, I think all of these should get crownered.
Edited by MissConduct on Nov 30th 2022 at 7:47:35 AM
Again, we're moving away from batch posting and bringing up tropes to simply crowner them w/o any discussion. That's thirteen tropes you're trying to push onto a crowner at once, when they couldn't even get any discussion before.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
The Enforcer
I'll support crownering Mix-and-Match Critters. Not only are regular hybrids a different thing, I'm under the impression that M&MC is only really notable when it's a worldbuilding device, making it narrative.
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
Since Past-Life Memories is being brought up again, will note I proposed a cleanup that didn't get much feedback at all. Since we're supposed to be a cleanup thread, let's post it again and see what comes up:
- Despite sounding like a complete fantasy, this phenomenon is present in real life and is a subject of serious research, although it is also dismissed by many as simple false memories. Potential past life memories usually manifest with small children (2-5 years of age) and tend to fade before the child reaches 10 years.too general, takes both sides and says nothing, cut
- In Real Life, there are people who claim that a person can unlock memories of their past incarnations under hypnosis, usually the directly preceding one. Often, this is declared to be a reason for that person's mental or even physical problems (such as chronic pains), essentially a case of suppressed memories taken to the next level. Needless to say, psychologists are skeptical, especially as the very idea of suppressed memories as a cause of problems is rapidly becoming discredited. This is probably one of the more common kinds of reincarnation claims in the Western world.too general and unsourced, cut
- Some of the more prominent practicioners of past life regression are Brian Weiss, Michael Newton (who called his technique "life between lives hypnotherapy"), Carol Bowman (who also investigated spontaneous memories) and Helen Wambach, who (succesfully) attempted to verify historical informations and statistics - gender, social class etc. of her subjects.prob okay, but that "successfully" bothers me and I'd say cut that word
- Hypnosis and past-life regression is generally considered to be inaccurate, while there are verifiable cases, a lot of people may claim to be the same person (such as someone famous), for example. Regression memories are also harder to verify than spontaneous, as the time interval between last death and birth is usually decades or even centuries, while with spontaneous memories, the average time interval is 4 years, and median only 16 months.again, more unsourced and general natter
- Past life researchers usually rely on spontaneous recall, which occurs with some small children (they usually fade before age of 10). The most well known researchers in this field are Ian Stevenson and Jim B. Tucker. They were able to find many cases and even confirm (compare the child's claims to actual information about deceased people) many of them. However, their work was criticised as being a result of cryptomnesia and confabulation, mostly because they performed the majority of their research in areas with pre-existing belief in reincarnation (hinduist and buddhist majority countries). It is possible, though, that such cases mostly appear there, because parents are more likely to take children's recall seriously, unlike monotheists or atheists, who are prevalent in the West. To adress this, Stevenson also investigated specific cases in Europe, while Tucker focused on American cases.prob needs tightenin because it wanders all over
- Stevenson also investigated possible link between birthmarks or birth defects and (usually fatal) wounds of the previous person. He was often even able to verify these corresponding wounds in autopsy reports. He also reported the possibility of xenoglossy, a partial transfer of language knowledge from previous life (although most cases were too weak to be taken as an evidence).super unsourced, presenting something as fact, I'd recommend a cut
- According to Stevenson's research, past life recall happens more often if the previous life ended in a violent manner or at least prematurely.natter, too much time on one researcher
- One of the most well-known cases in the West is James Leininger, whose supposed previous life as a World War II pilot James Hudson (who died during the battle of Iwo Jima) initially gave him horrible recurring nightmares, so his parents could not just dismiss it as imagination or overlook it. Another well known case is Ryan Hammons, who recalled a life of Hollywood extra, later a succesful talent agency owner, Marty Martyn. Both of these cases are detailed in the documentary series Surviving Death.keep
Looking over the trope description, it's definitely impossible in real life. The trope deals with creatures of the "put animal X head on body of animal Y", whereas the RL section is almost entirely concerned with crossbreeding animals. I'll toss it on the crowner tomorrow unless there is some push back on that.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
Both of those assessments look good.
I'm not trying to batch post and force stuff onto the crowner. I'm just trying to make sure that people's suggestions don't get lost, because I didn't list anything that people just decided to cut already. I'm not trying to rehash tropes that there seemed to be consensus against crownering. Most of these were tropes that had the misfortune to be brought up in the middle of a conversation and didn't not get any discussion through any fault of their own. I just don't want people's suggestions to get buried because people aren't going to look back through dozens of pages.
Edited by MissConduct on Nov 30th 2022 at 11:47:19 AM
The Enforcer
Permission to move the religious examples on Reincarnation to Religion & Mythology? That's what most of the RL section is.
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
Surviving Death has been subject to numerous criticisms regarding accuracy according to The Other Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_Death
Claims of Past-Life Memories have never been scientifically proven, relegating them to pseudoscience at best.
Edited by Nen_desharu on Dec 1st 2022 at 1:46:07 PM
Kirby is awesome.
Added Mix-and-Match Critters to the crowner.
Past-Life Memories cleaned up per above.
Regarding and the claim of the scientific-ness of the subject, it's not really applicable. PLM makes no scientifically falsifiable claim (i.e. claims that can be validated through observable data), hence while you can't prove it exists, you can't prove it doesn't either.
Re: Reincarnation
Yes, I would move anything related to religion over to that folder. I would not say to crowner however, as stating it's impossible treads awful close to saying certain religions are wrong.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
I'm going to bring this up again because it keeps getting lost:
With So Beautiful, It's a Curse now NRLEP, Sad Clown is definitely the trope with RL examples that feel the most... nosey, I think is the word I want to use. The current RL examples are just a long list of celebrities that have mental illnesses or past traumas, and they feel very uncomfortable to read. I'll argue the trope of Sad Clown itself is a Characterization trope, based on its description, and it's also Gossip, based on the current examples, and it's probably also Too Common.
The Enforcer
Here's my assessment of the examples on Reincarnation for cleanup purposes. Look okay to everyone?
- Famous American general George S. Patton believed that he had been reincarnated several times prior to his "current" life. He even believed himself to be the reincarnation of the historical Hannibal. — seems fine, keep in RL
- Between ten and twenty percent of Britons with a "traditional" Western religious background (i.e. not including Hindus, Buddhists etc.) apparently believe in reincarnation. note — move to Religion & Mythology
- It's been said there are more people who believe they were on the Titanic in a past life than there were actual passengers. — general, cut
- Remembering a past life is said to be possible via hypnotic regression, but it is considered to be inaccurate and prone to suggestion and imagination (for example, many people claim to be the same person, usually important). Past life researchers usually rely on spontaneous recall, usually with children (as these memories tend to fade rather quickly). — general, cut
- Part of many religions and many new age groups. — general, cut
- The Dalai Lama, who is believed to be living his fourteenth life as Tenzin Gyatso. Besides him, there were several thousands tulku (reincarnated lamas) in Himalayan regions and Mongolia. — move to Religion & Mythology
- A very famous instance of alleged reincarnation in the west is a boy named James Leininger, who's maintained that he's the reincarnation of a WWII fighter pilot named James Huston Jr. From a very early age, he could recognize small details in World War II aircraft and had recurring nightmares of being trapped in a cockpit of a plane that was shot down by the Japanese. When inquired by his parents, he was able to name one of the aircraft he allegedly flied with (Corsair) and even the name of his aircraft carrier (Natoma), eventually, he gave the name of the place his previous self died at (Iwo Jima). There was only one pilot from Natoma Bay who died in that battle, James Hudson. He's probably one of the most compelling cases of someone believed to be a reincarnation, to the point of appearing in mainstream news magazine shows whose typical fare is usually not along the lines of religious or spiritual matters. Others haven't been convinced though. — seems fine.
- Another well-documented case, more recent, is a boy named Ryan, who allegedly recalled a life of Marty Martyn, a Hollywood talent agent. Ryan first identified "himself" in a photo from a movie "Night after night", the only film where Martyn appeared (as an extra) and was able to provide many verified details (including place of residence, description of a house, and even the correct age of death, as the original death certificate was incorrect). — remove Examples Are Not Recent natter, rest seems fine
- Michael Ende commented on this: "If all the women I know who believe that they had been Mary Magdalene in a past life were right, you could have filled a big house with them!". Past life researchers explain this phenomenon by simple incorrect interpretation of memories, as people who see themselves on a sinking boat tend to assume they were on Titanic, or those who see themselves in certain historical epoch may assume they were someone important, while just being common folk. This phenomenon also tends to happen more with past life regression, which past life researchers do not generally use. — natter, cut
- Ian Stevenson's entire body of work. According to his research, children are most likely to remember their past life, if it ended in a violent manner, and usually forget about it before age of 10. His work was criticized as confabulation and cryptomnesia, as most of his research took place in Eastern Asia, where belief in reincarnation is prevalent (this can however be explained by the increased likelihood of Hindu/Buddhist parents to take children's past life remarks seriously than Christians or atheists would). He eventually did a series of investigations in Europe, where such beliefs were less common. Stevenson also investigated a possible link between past life injuries and birthmarks or birth defects. After he retired, Jim. B. Tucker took over his work. — natter, cut
- Though it's difficult to call it reincarnation, even if the self was 100% the product of the brain and after death there was nothing but oblivion, there would still remain the possibility that in the future another brain (or equivalent) would generate another self. Needless to say, in this case you'd not remember absolutely anything of your past and you could be anything but human, as there's no way to know when and/or where that would happen. In other words, even from a purely materialist perspective, the particles that make you up are reformed and will become part of another living thing. Same goes for Eternal Return, which would essentially mean reliving your current life all over again. Also, Whatever you consider your individual consciousness to be or however you consider it to work, the fact that it exists means that it is something that can exist. Even if we rule out the existence of anything anyone ever considered “religious” or “supernatural,” basically, once you didn’t exist and now you do; you didn't exist but were possible. There’s no reason that you won't remain possible the next time you don't exist. — this is not the trope. cut.
- Admiral Tōgō Heihachirō, who led the Japanese fleet in the Russo-Japanese War, said "I am firmly convinced that I am the reincarnation of Horatio Nelson." His skill as a naval commander left others convinced as well. — seems fine
- Brian Lumley, one of the most prominent Cthulhu Mythos writers of the post-Lovecraft period was born about nine months after H. P. Lovecraft himself died, which has prompted much half-joking speculation about his previous lives. Lumley himself doesn't take it seriously at all, though. — seems fine
- While the belief in reincarnation is often associated with Eastern Religions such a Buddhism and Hinduism, it's also a core belief of Spiritism, a religion that has a lot adherents in Latin America, specially Brazil, and combines elements of both Christianity and spiritualism. — move to Religion & Mythology
- Theosophy teaches reincarnation, and is a major factor in introducing the belief to the West (with many other groups following). — move to Religion & Mythology
- A belief in reincarnation was one of the major things that set The Cathars apart from Catholicism. — move to Religion & Mythology
Looks fine, my only quibble is that I would cut the "10-20% of Britons believe ..." as it doesn't cite an actual religious belief, and otherwise seems quite general.
Showtime!
I think the cited study makes it less general
Assessment looks good
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
The Enforcer
Weight Woe looks to be a list of celebrities with eating disorders, which feels nosy for the same reasons as Sad Clown and is also, tragically, too common.
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
Best Ogre
Agreed, probably counts first and foremost as gossip & stereotypes.
The Enforcer
Did the cleanup on Reincarnation.
they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.
Crown Description:
Vote up to either forbid all real life examples (No Real Life Examples Please) or forbid real life examples for specific subjects (Limited Real Life Examples Only); vote down to Keep Real Life Examples. To add a trope to a No Real Life Examples Please index or the Limited Real Life Examples Only index, its crowner option must meet the following criteria:- Stable 2:1 ratio needed for NRLEP or LRLEO
- The item have been on the crowne for a minimum of a week
- If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple of extra days to see if more votes come in.
"Real life has definitely proven that all planets are not earthlike, so it is impossible in real life. It's also a Narrative trope, being one of those Acceptable Breaks from Reality that sci-fi authors use. We could crowner on that."
i know im going to get snarked at, but this is an actual concept
and a point of research in astronomy
hail, holy queen of the sea, you're whirling-in-rags, you're vast and you're sad