Removing complaining, bashing and other negativity from the wiki

i have no personal love for screwattack but even as a fan of Wa W i didnt see it as an attack; if anything Nazi Zombies was the main feature of it for a while

hail, holy queen of the sea, you're whirling-in-rags, you're vast and you're sad

This new section added under South Park's LGBT Fanbase entry (in bold) feels unnecessary to me.

• LGBT Fanbase: The show garnered up a decent-sized one in the mid-2000s as the amount of fanfiction began to increase, due to the Ho Yay moments between Stan/Kyle, Cartman/Kyle, Cartman/Butters, etc. It grew even more upon the introduction of Tumblr and Reddit. It officially reached its peak when the season 19 episode "Tweek x Craig", an episode where Yaoi art of Tweek and Craig causes the two to act like they're in a relationship, aired in 2015. The main reason for the show's LGBT fanbase is due to the prominent focus on the male fourth graders; it's worth noting that due to the lack of prominent female child characters other than Wendy, Bebe, and Heidi, femslash is a rarity in the South Park fandom and thus gets outnumbered by the slash.
  
  This is fairly odd given how the show has criticized the community many times or touched upon queer topics in a way several people in the LGBTQ+ community would find offensive, such as "Mr Garrison's Fancy New Vagina", "The Cissy", and especially "Board Girls". LGBTQ+ fans either choose to ignore these episodes or begrudgingly tolerate them as they feel the show has enough good episodes to outnumber the ones they consider problematic.

While I agree these episodes do have problems (some minor, some massive) and there are objectively a lot of queer people who dislike the show, and a lot of fans do either criticize it or simply write this off as Fanon Discontinuity, this just feels like an excuse to put down both the show and its queer fans. Also, South Park has mocked many other minority groups in the same way, and some of them still like the show just as much as some of them dislike it. Yet there are also episodes that are well-intentioned — "The Cissy" has problems but ultimately has a message condemning anti-trans bathroom laws, and most queer fans agree it's the best of the bunch. Plus there's the episode that was defending gay rights in 1997. (The whole entry should probably focus more on this and less on shipping alone so maybe I could rework it.)

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 27th 2023 at 11:53:06 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I'm the one who added the extra bit. I mainly did because I felt the initial entry, while well-written, felt incomplete. I very much had to point out the how fairly against all odds the LGBT Fanbase for the show really is.

Maybe there could be a way to reword it? As I really do feel pointing out those episodes is relevant to the entry.

I could remove "The Cissy" for one, as thinking about it a second time, it is the best of the bunch and the episode rightfully treats Cartman pretending to be trans to be the actions of the POS that is Cartman. Wendy even points out that there are actual people with gender dysphoria and that Cartman is wrongfully taking advantage of that.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Oct 28th 2023 at 12:35:48 AM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

How about this? (Trying to be neutral due to ROCEJ but I don't want to sugarcoat things either.)

• LGBT Fanbase: The show garnered up a decent gay fanbase in the mid-2000s, due to the show's early support of the gay community as well as copious Ho Yay and Homoerotic Subtext between its predominantly male cast (though due to the lack of prominent female child characters other than Wendy, Bebe, and Heidi, femslash is a rarity in the South Park fandom). This grew even more upon the introduction of Tumblr and Reddit. When the season 19 episode "Tweek x Craig", an episode where Yaoi art of Tweek and Craig causes the two to act like they're in a relationship, aired in 2015, it brought in many young gay fans who saw the two as genuinely good gay relationship. However, these fans don't always agree with the show's takes on LGBT subject matter (especially transgender issues, barring "The Cissy" which is well-regarded for its take on the gender-neutral bathroom controversy), usually resulting in Fanon Discontinuity for the less positive LGBT episodes and more focus on the unambiguously pro-LGBT moments.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 27th 2023 at 1:49:43 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

This works

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Oct 28th 2023 at 1:55:15 AM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

There's this entry in Recap.The Simpsons S 18 E 22 You Kent Always Say What You Want that I don't know what to do with:

• Truth in Television: Sadly, there are Moral Guardians who are just as obsessed with indecency as Ned Flanders and the Comic Book Guy's line about people under 70 getting their news through the Internet is true as well.

I really don't like this trend of using words like "sadly" or "unfortunately" to address media reactions (including censorship), obscurity or unavailability on this site. To address this entry in particular it has two problems: first of all, it seems like complaining as it only seems to be here to say "Moral Guardians censoring media is a real thing, And That's Terrible." Second, I don't know if we're supposed to list instances of Truth in Television. Therefore, should this entry be rewritten more neutrally or removed completely?

A really bland entry, for all the reasons you stated. I say cut.

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird

Easy cut.

Tropers complain about Moral Guardians all the time. No wonder why Moral Guardians is very recently made NRLEP as controversial.

Kirby is awesome.

Any other thoughts on mewtron's rewrite of the LGBT Fanbase entry?

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

I believe that it would be good to mention in the Broken Base entry on South Park regarding its pro-LGBTQ+ episodes and homophobic and transphobic episodes.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Oct 28th 2023 at 10:00:39 AM

Kirby is awesome.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Oct 28th 2023 at 10:02:24 PM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

So...should it be moved to there?

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Oct 28th 2023 at 10:02:32 PM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

I would be in favour of moving it, but I would like to wait for what mew thinks first.

Kirby is awesome.

The Broken Base and LGBT Fanbase entries can coexist. The LGBT Fanbase itself is not as split about the LGBT episodes, but the South Park fandom as a whole is (though there's a huge culture clash between the queer Tumblr fans and the older cishet fans in general).

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I have to agree that that is no doubt a huge irreconcilable and ROCEJ-worthy broken base and thus should definitely be mentioned there.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Oct 29th 2023 at 12:23:19 PM

Kirby is awesome.

Someone's added this entry to Characters.RWBY Yang Xiao Long.

• Never My Fault: In the later volumes, Yang starts to display this behavior, holding others accountable for their mistakes while often justifying or ignoring her own.
  • At the start of Volume 8, Yang seemingly blames Ruby for their current predicament. Firstly, despite Yang being unsure of lying to Ironwood, she didn't truly protest and went along with it like everyone else. Secondly, it was Yang and Blake's unilateral decision to tell Robyn Hill about Amity that destroyed Ironwood's trust in the group.
  • When Lie Ren brings up their numerous mistakes and how they've contributed to endangering Atlas and Mantle as well as losing the Relic of Knowledge, Yang deflects everything and doesn't address any of his points, instead accusing him of simply brooding.
  • In the Ever After, after Ruby's mental health starts to deteriorate and she runs off, Yang claims Ruby could've just told them of her issues, forgetting that she was more concerned about her growing relationship with Blake than making sure Ruby was okay.

This complaint about Yang has been removed by this thread in the past. There is an existing Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry on the YMMV page which captures the parts of the fandom who feel this way (added below for comparison) due to it being an audience reaction and not objectively within the work itself. The second bullet point is more of the same and the final bullet point is inaccurate as Yang (and others) did reach out to Ruby, but the plot always interrupted whenever they tried (Word of God confirmed that was deliberate).

Are people happy for me to remove this entry?

---

The UU entry that already captures the above audience reaction:

Unintentionally Unsympathetic:

• At the beginning of Volume 8, Yang's argument about how to deal with Atlas and Mantle's plight leaves many fans finding it hard to side with her due to actions she took in Volume 7. When Yang questions Ruby's leadership abilities, she insists on saving Mantle while Ruby opts for completing Amity Tower to warn Remnant about Salem. While both plans are carried out, fans struggled to sympathize with Yang because her and Blake's decision to leak the Amity information to Robyn contributed to Ironwood turning against the heroes; this was done without Ruby's knowledge nor her consent, making Yang seem like she's deflecting blame onto Ruby.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 30th 2023 at 7:02:55 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I'd say add a note that there was one time she did reach out when the plot didn't try to interrupt them but that she dismissed Ruby's concerns by saying that she wasn't Ironwood.

Except that note wouldn't be true. I'm not asking you to like Yang, and you know well enough just how much and how often I criticise her, but I know you know the difference between objective troping and audience reaction.

---

In an expansion of my previous post. The same troper (who seems to be a new troper) who added the Never My Fault entry about Yang, has added the following entries to Ruby Rose and Lie Ren's character sheets. Just like the Yang entry above, the troper seems to be taking one side of fandom arguments that are already captured on the YMMV as things like Unintentionally Unsympathetic or Broken Base or Base-Breaking Character and trying to turn them into objective trope entries.

Characters.RWBY Ruby Rose:

• Fatal Flaw: Blind idealism. Ruby has strong ideals of right and wrong and seeks to help the world through them like her mother did. Tragically, her naivety, lack of experience with real world problems, inability to handle morally grey situations and unwillingness to make necessary sacrifices, despite the insistence of others, causes her to not understand the gravity of her choices nor consider the consequences of her actions. Her actions contribute to causing Grimm attacks on Vale and Argus, Ironwood losing trust in Team RWBY and their allies, Salem getting the Relics of Knowledge and Creation and the destruction of Atlas and Mantle. As Lie Ren pointed out to Yang, Ruby took on decisions that she was not ready nor trained to make, which only made things worse.

Characters.RWBY Team JNPR (Lie Ren):

• Jerkass Has a Point: Played with. Lie Ren is not usually prickly, but after Oscar is abducted by the Hound and the Relic of Knowledge is taken by Salem, he's not in a good mood. When Yang confronts him, he brings up that the terrible situation they're in is of their own making, calling out every one of their poor decisions. While he was rude and chose a poor time, he wasn't wrong. The group lying to Ironwood had alienated their most important ally in Atlas and by the time they revealed the truth, Salem was on her way, the Atlesian army was exhausted and Mantle was flooding with Grimm. Ruby's blind idealism, Yang and Blake's decision to tell Robyn about Amity Tower behind everyone's back and failure to secure the Relic of Knowledge had left Atlas and Mantle at Salem's mercy. Further more, Ren brings up that despite insisting on standing their ground, they have no plan to defeat Salem, which is their biggest obstacle to true victory. Sadly, Yang dismisses all of it without addressing any of Ren's points and accuses him of brooding.

These come from the side of the Broken Base and Base-Breaking Character entries about the heroes versus Ironwood (and even from the Unintentionally Sympathetic entry about the heroes versus Ozpin). They do not portray the show itself accurately, audience reaction side has already been captured on the YMMV page and the objective troping that can be done already has been. For instance, Ruby's entry is trying to blame her for things beyond her role to paint her as a Wide-Eyed Idealist who causes loads of problems (she's troped and deconstructed under a number of idealism and paragon tropes, but she isn't a WEI), and the show does not objectively paint Ren as right in his argument with Yang.

For anyone who thinks I don't sympathise with the audience reaction in these entries, I've been very vocal in the RWBY fandom about my issues with Yang's portrayal, and just how bad her side of the argument with Ren really is. These entries capture a lot of the complaints I've made over the years, but that's complaining and audience reaction. It's not objective.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 31st 2023 at 7:10:18 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

This was just added to Candle Cove and it feels wrong to me.

• Nightmare Retardant: For many, the tacit acceptance by the forum users of a children's show character called "The Skintaker" pushes Suspension of Disbelief past the breaking point and makes it impossible to buy into Candle Cove as "a half-remembered kids show that was kind of weird" instead of "The Puppet Creepypasta Variety Hour".

I'm pretty sure there actually were kid shows with non-subtle villain names like that, so it's not THAT unbelievable.

Yeah. Besides, the point was that kids could see it and adults couldn't. It's not like the parents in-universe were totes cool with their kids watching such a disturbing show — they saw static. That was the whole twist.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

on top of that, one man's scary = another person's narm. skintaker is kinda funny to me but given that it is horror, it... well, doesnt leave much to the imagination, and that evokes all kinds of terrifying fates

hail, holy queen of the sea, you're whirling-in-rags, you're vast and you're sad

I vaguely remember seeing a video on You Tube about creepypastas that made the same point, that "the skintaker" isn't a realistic name for a childrens' show. I wonder if someone watched the same video and is just parroting that critique.

Oh my God. I was looking at They Changed It, Now It Sucks! video game section, and I found this...

• The Crash Bandicoot franchise has its share of complaints about the many changes between games, most infamously the character designs in Crash of the Titans and Crash: Mind Over Mutant, which fans feel it was such a strange direction to go with. For the most part, the complaints are fair like ones concerning game mechanics which either did not use much potential or just ended up utterly bland compared to the past entries of the same genre. However, one fan's reaction to Toys for Bob's redesigns takes this trope to ludicrous extremes. He refuses to believe these are new designs of the same characters or even Crash characters at all, that Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy and Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time are genuine Crash games, or that anyone who the redesigns don't send into a murderous rage is a genuine fan of the series; he has drawn art advocating the murder of Activision employees; he uses various epithets against the redesigned characters that cannot be repeated here due to ableist slurs; he claims to be suicidal over these designs; he harasses anyone he interacts with who doesn't share his overreacting hatred of the games; and he bundled malware (now removed from the latest demo) in his fan game, Crash Bandicoot Retro Hijinx, which causes any Steam files corresponding to these games to be deleted from the user's system.

My mind is screaming: "TRIM IT! TRIM IT WITH RAZOR EDITS!". Like this, maybe?

• The Crash Bandicoot franchise entered a controversial phase when the franchise was helmed by Toys for Bob's, which includes the likes of Crash of the Titans and Crash: Mind Over Mutant. Whether the changes are about game mechanics or character redesign, most of the older fans of Crash are not happy. But thankfully, Crash ends up revisiting the older style with Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy and Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time, pleasing the former detractors of change.

Edited by ChrisX on Nov 1st 2023 at 10:14:42 PM

PLEASE chainsaw all of that.

Stan GaruKaru for clear skin

Perfect. Looks well trimmed to me.

MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates