This is a frequently misused trope. Nothing to do but fix or remove any bad examples like the one you describe.
Question, how can a character be unsympathetic yet still be liked? I always thought that having sympathy = being liked, and not having sympathy = being hated.
The page description also says it’s a common problem with The Scrappy, which kind of helped with how I view this reaction.
Edited by PlasmaPower Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread! Hide / Show RepliesIts not nearly that simple. You can like characters you don't sympathize with (a lot of villains fall under this banner) and dislike characters you do. Sympathizing with a character means you understand where they're coming from and why they're doing what they're doing, and maybe even agreeing with them. Most people can't sympathize with the Joker, or Kirei Kotomine, but they still like them.
<DIE THE DEATH> <SENTENCE TO DEATH> <GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH>Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Complaining, started by SatoshiBakura on Jun 25th 2017 at 4:49:49 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanCorrect me if I'm wrong, but I don't the the Star Trek: Insurrection example holds up. Picard wasn't protecting the Baku against an insidious Federation plot to replace them with Federation colonists. The plan was to totally remove the planet's "magic radiation junk" or whatever it was and move it elsewhere, after which it would *hopefully* continue to work as it did in its current configuration.
A different Star Trek captain might have pointed out that there is no guarantee the "stuff" will still work once it is disturbed, and it would probably be a much better idea to leave it as it is, assign a science team to study the phenomenon, establish a medical facility at some point sufficiently distant from the Baku to avoid disrupting their lifestyle, and hopefully replicate the effect elsewhere at some point... NOT rip it to shreds in the hopes that it will magically still work under completely different circumstances.
Hide / Show RepliesThe thing is, that's not the reason people don't find the Ba'ku sympathetic, and the idea that the procedure might not work is never brought up. As far as the film seems to be concerned, it does work, and the entire conflict that the film brings up is that it'd work if they tried it, but it would destroy the Ba'ku's culture in the process. People find the Ba'ku unsympathetic because they're not an indigenous people so their claim isn't especially valid, they're a community of maybe a few hundred people so there's not much harm being done, their overall self-superior attitude and pastoral perfection gets on people's nerves, and the fact that they found the secret of immortality and chose to hoard it for themselves kind of naturally makes them hard to like.
I noticed that this trope is attracting a lot of negativity, complaining, natter, and the like, so I made a cleanup thread on the forums here. Anyone who is confused about the trope is about welcome to join in.
- Also, the Amazon Trio and Pegasus from the 90s anime adaption of the "Dream Arc" from Sailor Moon come across like this to some viewers, which is another reason why the fourth season of the anime is so disliked.
- The Trio's Heel–Face Turn comes across as rather forced considering they spent pretty much every episode prior to that acting incredibly creepy and stalkerish to their targets, compounded by the Mind Rape tactics and sexual assault undertones whenever they attack. FishEye does get some individual character development when he begins to question if the Trio are able to have dreams of their own, mixed with his unrequited love for Mamoru and the sympathy he develops for Usagi. Hawk's Eye and Tiger's Eye, however, get no such development, with their motivations being read as wholly selfish and more for the sake of telling Zirconia off than any understanding of love or dreams.
- Pegasus is supposed to be seen as the prince-like love interest for Chibi-Usa, but is rather emotionally abusive to her. Never mind how incredibly screwed up his interactions with her while he was still in horse, form and made some not so subtle advances towards her even though she's an elementary school student, but he refuses to answer any of her questions about who he is or where he comes from. He demands blind faith from Chibi-Usa and throws the equivalent of temper tantrums if she tries to find out any other information about him, cutting off contact from her and worsening the guilt complex she's had since "R." That he makes her continue to lie about their relationship puts Chibi-Usa in grave danger. One other aspect of Pegasus' dislike from the fans is how his presence undermined the theme of the Sailor Senshi being strong on their own as girls and a team, as they suddenly became dependent on him for their new powers and transformations. Sailor Moon couldn't even attack without him!
Uh... What the Hell is that supposed to mean? I have seen some potshots thrown at Helios, but lots of the stuff here is blatantly dumb. Plus it's quite clear that the Amazon Trio guys are True Companions: the person here is completely ignoring that for all their huge flaws, they were undyingly loyal to one another in the end and that's more than enough for Hawk and Tiger to stick by Fish's side to the very end and, in Hawk's case, to die for him.
This is just whining for the sake of whining, imo.
Edited by GlitteringFlowersI've noticed that Fairy Tail's Karen is both this trope, Asshole Victim and Kick The Son Of A Bitch. If she was this trope, she would be treated as Too Good To The Sinful Earth or Alas, Poor Villain In-Universe. But instead, she is a Asshole Victim:
Proof: "While Loke was blamed for her death and banished, no one really feels sorry for her. Even Lucy, one of the nicest characters in the series, doesn't really care about Karen's death, vigorously arguing that Loke doesn't deserve to be punished for helping a friend."
Strike Laser Claw!!- Clover from Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors. In the true route, Junpei is able to help her get over the emotions of brother's death, gets an emotional reunion scene when it turns out her brother isn't actually dead and goes on in that route to remain as the bubbly character she started out out. However, in one of the other endings where Junpei isn't able to help her, she snaps and goes crazy with an ax, killing everyone. Some players who got this ending before the true ending find it impossible to think of Clover as anything but an ax-wielding psychopath. The developers themselves seemed to be aware of this problem. In the game's sequel, Virtue's Last Reward, during Luna's path during which it's revealed that Clover confronted Luna over Alice's death, threatening her with an injection gun, the game throws in a few lines explaining that Clover didn't seem like she actually wanted to kill Luna, and that the gun fired by mistake during a struggle. It doesn't help in VLR that Clover's model has has a bug where instead of defaulting to a neutral expression, she slips into a smile when she's not emoting (and combined with taking a noticeable drop in intelligence from 999 to VLR — from explaining the rather complex "The Ship of Theseus" thought experiment to Junpei to misreading "Pantry" as "Panties" in VLR, she ends up coming off as a Sociopathic Ditz
This looks more like a case of Never Live It Down than this. Entry treats Clover as unsympathetic because of one action that in most timelines didn't even happen. Given that in other timelines she's pretty nice i don't see how she's supposed to be unsympathetic except for the timeline when she snaps.
I think we need to clean up the Naruto section. It lists ten different characters, and some of the entries are misleading, e.g. It doesn't mention Obito's Face Turn during the final battle, or that he died saving the heroes from an attack, instead talking about him like he was just a straight villain until the end.
Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut. Hide / Show RepliesThis is YMMV trope so you don't have to agree. Tobi's Face Turn is seen as too little too late, and doesn't really cover the sympathy he gets from the narrative. that's why he's here.
Does anyone else think that this page, like Creator's Pet, should only have "blatantly obvious or creator-acknowledged examples" on it? I've noticed many examples, such as the Persona 5 ones, have evidence that's seemingly cherry-picked and used to portray the character in the worst possible light, while condescendingly saying something to the effect of "The author wants us to believe this character's sympathetic, but if you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you," so some examples are of people not liking a character who isn't designated as totally unsympathetic.
If anything, requiring some Word of God saying that the characters were supposed to be sympathetic- for example, the author of Magical Record Lyrical Nanoha Force talking about the Huckebein- would be clear evidence that we were supposed to sympathize with those characters, while a lot of people don't feel that way. This may be a YMMV trope, but there needs to be evidence that the characters were supposed to be sympathetic, or else it comes off as complaining about characters you don't like.
Incidentally, Unintentionally Sympathetic is significantly better about this- not only does it have more proof as to how we were supposed to view those characters, but it also suggests that maybe it isn't always the author's fault.
Hide / Show RepliesI think it might be a good start, though I can think of at least one example (Hobb, from Robocop 2) who fits the trope very well but wouldn't quite pass that hurdle.
I still recall the Telltale Walking Dead game having Kenny listed under this entry on its YMMV page, even though his growing jerkass behavior in Season 2 isn't glossed over by the other characters.
Question: How can characters like Superboy Prime or Master Xehanort be Unintentionally Unsympathetic...If they are labelled as Complete Monsters? By that logic, Lotso Huggin Bear and several other pure evil villains should be on here.
Just saying, which one is it? Pick a trope and stick with it!
Hide / Show RepliesThe only requisites to the trope are "be intended as sympathetic by the author" and "be viewed as unsympathetic by the audience". This is a subtrope to Misaimed Fandom. Lotso not qualifies as Unintentionally Unsympathetic because he was not intended as sympathetic in first place.
Edited by MagBas- Blake Belladonna in RWBY after the events of Volume 3's finale. While her actions from that - running away to protect everyone from Adam Taurus' Yandere-like wrath - has incredible merit, it's the fact that she ran off without telling anyone that she was running away to protect them that has caused many fans to never forgive her for it. What makes this hurt even worse for the fanbase is that Yang Xiao Long essentially risked her life, lost her right arm in trying to save her and this is how Blake repaid her. This ends up triggering a very powerful Heroic BSoD in Yang that, when the Volume closes, she is several months in and shows no sign of escaping. Nice Job Breaking It, Blake.
From the writeup it seems like it doesn't apply. The Nice Job Breaking It, Hero pothole there kinda seals it... it's seems like it's supposed to be pretty clear that she effed up.
Now, if there's other scenes showing Blake on the run and going "aw, poor her, all alone and stuffs" then sure. But as written it comes across as intentional.
Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.Well, we'll have to wait for those scenes until vol.4. So far we've only seen what i said we've seen.
Well, that pothole doesn't really apply to this situation, but I completely agree that it's not this trope. Blake running away doesn't trigger Yang's Heroic BSoD but it is clear that Yang's depression is made worse by Blake's actions. We only learn about Blake's actions from Yang and it's very much only Yang's perspective we have for what's happened. Yang does not view what Blake's done as acceptable. She doesn't understand Blake's motives, has clearly jumped to conclusions, and is angry, bitter and unforgiving.
Blake's departure is not introduced to the viewer in a positive or sympathetic way. It's introduced through the eyes of someone who is hurting very, very deeply and who is feeling betrayed.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.- While Edgeworth had Unintentionally Sympathetic moments as an Amoral Attorney, he likewise has some of these as The Atoner — from giving No Sympathy to a confirmed-suicidal witness in "Farewell, My Turnabout," to rejecting the "Turnabout Time Traveler" defendant's self-defense plea (despite that remaining her only plausible motive as the trial goes on) and even trying to use her Despair Event Horizon over potentially losing her fiance's trust to coerce a confession. The game tries to justify these by citing his sheer stress from trying to reform the entire Prosecutor's Office, but it'd be a lot more understandable if he didn't act like a complete Smug Snake during them.
The Mai entry was rewritten in a way that takes away context, and to basically be a Take That! to people hold that view.
Here's the edit I put down.
- Mai from Dragon Ball Super is seemingly supposed to be viewed as a cute Love Interest for Kid Trunks. However she can come off as unsympathetic considering she's a grown woman in a child's body, and flirts with a child who's unaware of the truth. Made worse in the future timeline where the manga reveals she used up Shenron's last wish on the selfish wish for her, and her comrades to have young bodies again, preventing Future Gohan from wishing any of those killed back as shortly after Piccolo was killed.
Here's the Rewrite by Ramona 122003
- Future Mai from Dragon Ball Super comes off as this to a vocal section of the fandom. She, like Future Trunks, survived the terror of the androids, may have lost her dear friends Pilaf and Shu, and is terrorized by Black who is destroying the remained of humanity. What makes her unsympathetic to some is that she gained her youth from the final wish from Shenron before Piccolo is killed, preventing Future Bulma and Gohan, from using the Dragon Balls to wish back everyone who was killed by the androids, even if it was Pilaf who made the final wish.
These are the parts, I think are in the vein of a Take That.
- to a vocal section of the fandom
- even if it was Pilaf who made the final wish.
I feel the original entry is more clear, and to the point. The rewrite is just full of nitpicks, and basically saying if you think this, you're wrong.
Hide / Show RepliesI'm still trying to find time to finally watch DBS so i'm not sure how valid this entry is. I generally agree that entry shouldn't be written in a way that makes it look like it's wrong. I'm ok with entry implying that not everyone thinks that, but the new entry makes tries to make her look like The Woobie rather than this. As for entry's validity the part of the original about flirting with Trunks should come back. The part about wish... if it was Mai's wish then the original entry is valid, if it was Pilaf, then that part goes out of the window.
Pilaf made the wish, but, you know, she was working for him and that was the plan all along.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.I don't remember asking which one did it, and especially not the details. I said how do i see it depending on which one did it. Either way if it was Pilaf, not her, it's not her who's unsympathetic for it. Although there might be a rewrite that's she's unsympathetic for going along with this plan(but not for making the wish, since she didn't)
Lets say:
- Pilaf, Mai, and Shu are traveling together.
- Shu breaks open the door of a bank, and ties up the accountant.
- Mai cracks open the safe.
- And Pilaf takes the money out of the safe.
- They then spread the money among themselves.
You can't say but it was Pilaf that took the money, when they were all part of the effort to rob the bank.
The same goes for the wish. Pilaf being the one to outright say the wish outloud doesn't change that Mai, and Shu helped him gather the balls for the plan to selfishly use the Dragon Balls for their own personal benefit.
But it was Pilaf who took the money. See? I can. Like i said i haven't seen it yet, so i lack the context. But from what Larkmarn said it seems like the whole case was a team effort all along and rewriter just shifted the whole blame on Pilaf. But original entry said she used the wish which is not entirely correct either. If that sentence said "she and her comrades used up Shenron's last wish on the selfish wish for them, to have young bodies again" then it would probably solve the problem.
Pilaf took the money, but you can't say Mai didn't take the money because Pilaf was the one to take it out of the safe.
Point being, Pilaf may have been the one to say the wish outloud, but that was the plan of all of them, including Mai.
If Mai had expressed second thoughts, and tried to dissuade Pilaf, or Pilaf had done it with Mai's knowledge/told her he was going to use it to help the world, then Mai wouldn't have responsibility.
Mai did use the wish, as did Pilaf, and Shu. Basically as mentioned, just like in the Bank-robbing example it was a team effort, and they all contributed.
Anyhow if you want the change to be done, I can do it quickly.
- Thor himself in Thor fits this. The audience is meant to sympathize with his being thrown out of Asgard for his arrogance, but since he brought this on himself by literally starting an interdimensional war, it's hard to actually relate. Contrast with Loki, who may as well be the actual protagonist of the film - his adoptive brother is clearly irresponsible beyond reason, and his entire family has been hiding his heritage from him for literal centuries. His actions still aren't justified, but they're much more understandable than the Odinson's.
I'm under the impression Thor realizing the error of his ways was the point of the movie, invalidating the unintentional aspect. Is that so?
Loki's stuff can be moved to Unintentionally Sympathetic.
Hide / Show RepliesYeah, Thor in the beginning is supposed to be a jerkass, that's the whole point. That said, if his "yes, I have learned and grown" comes up hollow, he can certainly still qualify.
That's just, you know, not even a little bit what the entry is stating.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.So Severus Snape from Harry Potter is both in Unintentionally Sympathetic and Unintentionally Unsympathetic ? Well one should makes your mind. Personnally I do not think the narrative was tryng to excuse his jerkass behavior toward Harry. As for James and Lily's death, he's clearly The Atoner.
Hide / Show RepliesTo be perfectly honest, this is why I think this should only be a definition since half of the examples are suggestive and/or just people using this as an excuse to Complain About Characters They Don't Like
Edited by Sakubara "Life's like a movie, write your own ending. Keep believing, keep pretending."-Jim HensonAs a YMMV trope, this is subjective by definition. The Snape example was cut, so bad examples are being fixed. If you find many examples of misuse, take them to Trope Repair Shop, then it can be divided if it needs a fixing.
- Starlight Glimmer was hit with this badly in the Season 5 finale. Her Freudian Excuse was poor at best (losing a single friend in her childhood, and not even shown trying to keep in touch with him) while her actions were downright abominable in comparison. In the season 5 premiere, she created a brutal dictatorship/cult where her followers are enslaved, brainwashed, and have their talents forcibly suppressed, and she used force to make the Mane 6 join them. In the season finale, she travels through time in order to get revenge against one single pony, causing several apocalyptic scenarios in the process. Not helping her case was her abrupt Heel–Face Turn at the end (even fans who like her reformation admit this), which only happened because Starlight was given a chance to make her life better (rather than because she might have destroyed Equestria). Additionally, her backstory is almost identical to Moondancer, who was a far more likable and well-received character whose reconciliation with Twilight is considered one of, if not the, finest moments of Season 5. Starlight was meant to be a Broken Bird who had been Driven to Villainy and ultimately saw the light, but was seen and reviled by the majority of fans as a spoiled-rotten and childish Karma Houdini who was forgiven way too easily for all the terrible things she did. What made it worse is that it seems to be implied that Starlight is now a Sixth Ranger to the Mane 6. While other villains have been Easily Forgiven, fans weren't expected to let them join the main cast.
I cut most of this entry down because, as I said, it goes far beyond the point of the trope (explaining why Starlight's motivations for being Driven to Villainy weren't as sympathetic as the writers intended) and into Complaining About A Redemption You Don't Like. Starlights actions are grossly exaggerated in order to make her out to be a Complete Monster who crossed the Moral Event Horizon yet got off easy for it (Her cult town was far from "a brutal dictatorship": aside from the removal of cutie marks and individuality in order to make ponies better harmonize as a friendly community, it was all about a lack of brutality, and none of the apocalyptic scenarios of alternate timelines she indirectly caused were intended by her, so I don't see why this is something she supposedly can't come back from), the entry indicates that she showed no remorse for her crimes and only made a Heel–Face Turn out of selfishness and convenience for her (which, if you watch the episode, is clearly not true), compared her unfavorably to another character with a similar story and stated opinion on that character's story as though they were fact (I personally found Moondancer a good contender for this trope myself), and went on to complain about her promotion to Sixth Ranger, which was happening whether fans liked it or not.
Edited by ANewMan- In DEATH BATTLE!, "Yang Xiao Long vs. Tifa Lockhart", more than a few people have pointed out that despite the episode attempting to depict Yang as the more heroic of the two, it was Yang who started the whole fight by walking into Tifa's bar and beating up the doorman for essentially just doing his job, smashing him through the door and refusing to comply when Tifa asked her to leave the premises. It really leaves a poor taste in some people's mouths, especially seeing as Yang ends up brutally murdering Tifa in the end without a hint of remorse and over an incident that was entirely her own fault. She really comes across as a particularly nasty Sociopathic Hero instead of her usual Nice Girl self and many RWBY fans dislike the depiction.
A-yup. The controversy may be worth noting somewhere, but not here.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.- Iris in The Flash (2014) is put on a pedestal by everyone who knows her, especially Barry. The problem is that they really shouldn't. Even after Barry reveals his feelings for her, and learns they are mutual, she refuses to dump her current boyfriend, Eddie. While this is not bad in itself, she maintains this even after learning she and Barry are destined to be Happily Married. She and Eddie decide Screw Destiny in a manner that makes it seem she's more interested in her happiness than Barry's. She also chewed everyone out for not telling her Barry is the Flash in a very entitled way, despite the fact that she really wouldn't have been that helpful. Finally, she discovers from the mother she thought was dead that she has a brother. Iris angrily tells her to never speak to her again. Her mother is dying and is desperate to reconcile and Iris is basically stabbing her in the heart for something she was going to talk to her about anyway, yet treating it like a betrayal. And despite being angry about not learning Barry is the Flash, she chooses not to tell them what she learned until Christmas. Her response to Cold's Freudian Excuse about a rough childhood, namely everyone in the room had a rough childhood and should get over it, is hollow when you remember that, aside from thinking her mom was dead, she had the most normal childhood of all the people in the room.
- In a similar vein there's River Song who was willing to destroy time itself by breaking a fixed point to save the Doctor's life because as she put it the Doctor was worth more to her than all of the universe. Rather than coming off as romantic it instead wouldn't be out of place as a villain's motive rant. Made worse in that while she does give in and allow events to play out it's only because the Doctor told her that he was faking his death, not that she can't put the universe over his own safety.
I have a question about this example. I completely understand why someone would feel that River is this trope. However, I feel as though this is being described out of context. It's not as though she suddenly went crazy and decided to end reality. She was literally kidnapped and had the bulk of her agency taken away in order to murder the Doctor. There was no way to stop that. In fact, trying to stop it was what nearly destroyed time. The other thing to keep in mind is that the River in the suit is still relatively young in the timeline. She hasn't gone through Character Development yet.
I think all the examples should be scrapped and the page turned into a simple definition page. It's just an invitation to rant, and YMMV on any of the examples.
Meanwhile, I edited the The House of Night example. Zoey doesn't take issue with her sister having sex or her brother playing violent video games; the problem was that they put on a front of being wholesome, obedient Christian children for the benefit of their mother and stepfather and got treated like they were actually that, while Zoey showed outward signs of having a mind of her own and got labeled the bad seed.
Edited by ShorinBJDoes anyone really think that Alex from A Clockwork Orange was supposed to be sympathetic? In what universe?
Hide / Show Repliesif you read the book it will show what the autor intended to say about the situation
it is hard to see in the dark when your eyes are blinded by the light- Belle in Beauty And The Beast was supposed to be depicted as someone oppressed by her village due to her father as well as her love of books, as well as the epitome of internal beauty. However, she spent the majority of her lyrics in the opening song insulting her fellow villagers, and during the wedding the way she got Gaston out made it seem as though she was deliberately trying to trick Gaston into falling into a mudpool, and then took amusement at his humiliation (which in a way made her out to be as big of a jerk as Gaston), as well as disobeying her stipulation of staying away from the West Wing despite the Beast explicitly telling her it was a forbidden area, nearly destroyed Beast's literal lifeline, explicitly broke the agreement she made with the Beast and nearly got herself and him killed by wolves, and then effectively foolishly exposing the Beast to a crowd of villagers who were obviously congregated into a mob to take Maurice to the happy farm, thus endangering him and his servants. It also doesn't help that her foils, the Bimbettes, actually came closer to actual internal beauty from their actions in the limited screentime they had than Belle did in the entirety of her film.
- Apparently, the musical writers noticed that how Belle handled Gaston's proposal in the film made her look very bad, considering that they instead had Belle politely and timidly refuse Gaston's hand in marriage after the latter sung a self-praising song about himself aptly called "Me."
One point at a time:
1). What Belle was saying in the song was that she felt frustrated that no one in the village (except the librarian) understood her. Considering that they were all willing to stand behind Gaston when he tried to force her hand in marriage by committing her father to the asylum, it's a fair point.
2.). When she got Gaston out, he had her against the door and was trying to kiss her and get her to marry him after she had clearly said that she wasn't interested. Considering the situation, she's entitled to enjoy seeing him in the mud.
3.). Yes, exposing the Beast to the mob was stupidly impulsive. However, at the time, she was trying to save her father from the asylum and herself from a forced marriage. That's not unsympathetic at all.
Edited by 24.126.51.214 Hide / Show RepliesThis is an Audience Reaction. A character sympathetic to a person is not necessarily sympathetic to other.
The person who added this was banned though. And acting like Belle was the bad guy to Gaston is just Victim Blaming.
Is there any difference between this and Designated Hero and Designated Hero Syndrome
Hide / Show RepliesYes. Designated Hero refers to a character who is treated as a hero but does not act like one. This trope is for any character, hero or not, that is intended to be sympathetic but comes off as not.
Is there some guidelines to how prevalent the Unsympathetic-ness needs to be? I just stumbled over an example on a Trek Recap page, where Kira Nerys was described as this YMMV thing for kicking out Miles while she was giving birth; she did so because he was busy arguing with someone else in the room, while her species must be relaxed in order to give birth. Yes, the child was his, but not only have I never seen any other fans comment on it, I also find it perfectly reasonable that a woman is always allowed to decide who should be present while she's half-naked, and I'd wager most people would agree.
Hide / Show Replies