Main Unintentionally Unsympathetic Discussion

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Valiona
Topic
05:58:17 AM Apr 22nd 2017
Does anyone else think that this page, like Creator's Pet, should only have "blatantly obvious or creator-acknowledged examples" on it? I've noticed many examples, such as the Persona 5 ones, have evidence that's seemingly cherry-picked and used to portray the character in the worst possible light, while condescendingly saying something to the effect of "The author wants us to believe this character's sympathetic, but if you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you," so some examples are of people not liking a character who isn't designated as totally unsympathetic.

If anything, requiring some Word of God saying that the characters were supposed to be sympathetic- for example, the author of Magical Record Lyrical Nanoha Force talking about the Huckebein- would be clear evidence that we were supposed to sympathize with those characters, while a lot of people don't feel that way. This may be a YMMV trope, but there needs to be evidence that the characters were supposed to be sympathetic, or else it comes off as complaining about characters you don't like.

Incidentally, Unintentionally Sympathetic is significantly better about this- not only does it have more proof as to how we were supposed to view those characters, but it also suggests that maybe it isn't always the author's fault.
SpectralTime
07:16:37 AM Apr 22nd 2017
I think it might be a good start, though I can think of at least one example (Hobb, from Robocop 2) who fits the trope very well but wouldn't quite pass that hurdle.
PsychicSlayerNatrium
Topic
12:43:49 AM Jan 29th 2017
Question: How can characters like Superboy Prime or Master Xehanort be Unintentionally Unsympathetic...If they are labelled as Complete Monsters? By that logic, Lotso Huggin Bear and several other pure evil villains should be on here.

Just saying, which one is it? Pick a trope and stick with it!
MagBas
04:35:37 AM Jan 29th 2017
edited by MagBas
The only requisites to the trope are "be intended as sympathetic by the author" and "be viewed as unsympathetic by the audience". This is a subtrope to Misaimed Fandom. Lotso not qualifies as Unintentionally Unsympathetic because he was not intended as sympathetic in first place.
NNinja
Topic
03:10:45 PM Oct 17th 2016
  • While Edgeworth had Unintentionally Sympathetic moments as an Amoral Attorney, he likewise has some of these as The Atoner — from giving No Sympathy to a confirmed-suicidal witness in "Farewell, My Turnabout," to rejecting the "Turnabout Time Traveler" defendant's self-defense plea (despite that remaining her only plausible motive as the trial goes on) and even trying to use her Despair Event Horizon over potentially losing her fiance's trust to coerce a confession. The game tries to justify these by citing his sheer stress from trying to reform the entire Prosecutor's Office, but it'd be a lot more understandable if he didn't act like a complete Smug Snake during them.
I've only removed the part about Turnabout Time Traveler, since the first moment really was controversial(although what's left might need a rewrite). As for the parts that i threw out: Aside from the fact that defendant didn't make self-defence plea, as she claimed she was completely innocent, the reason he didn't think this was justified self-defence(note that i've added one word) was because according to autopsy report the victim was knocked unconcious with one hit, and then killed with a second one, meaning that while it started as self-defence guy was killed when he was no longer a threat. As far as my knowledge about self-defence laws goes no country allows killing someone who already clearly stopped being a threat. Edgeworth was simply obeying the law. As for coercing her into confession it simply didn't happen. Ellen confessed on her own, because Phoenix accused her fiance. Granted, he took her confession at face value, but considering that he tried to prove her guilt all along it's hard to blame him for it.
NNinja
Topic
08:15:52 AM Oct 4th 2016
  • Blake Belladonna in RWBY after the events of Volume 3's finale. While her actions from that - running away to protect everyone from Adam Taurus' Yandere-like wrath - has incredible merit, it's the fact that she ran off without telling anyone that she was running away to protect them that has caused many fans to never forgive her for it. What makes this hurt even worse for the fanbase is that Yang Xiao Long essentially risked her life, lost her right arm in trying to save her and this is how Blake repaid her. This ends up triggering a very powerful Heroic B.S.O.D. in Yang that, when the Volume closes, she is several months in and shows no sign of escaping. Nice Job Breaking It, Blake.
While i can see why people would see Blake's actions as unsympathetic i'm not entirely sure it wasn't meant to be. We learn this from Yang's perspective who already suffered heavy case of Break the Badass and now is left by her best friend without any explanation, and when Ruby tries to understand Blake's actions she's immediately cut of. Even Blake herself earlier seemed to think of her being prone to running away from problems as Fatal Flaw rather than something deserving sympathy.
Larkmarn
10:48:18 AM Oct 4th 2016
edited by Larkmarn
From the writeup it seems like it doesn't apply. The Nice Job Breaking It, Hero! pothole there kinda seals it... it's seems like it's supposed to be pretty clear that she effed up.

Now, if there's other scenes showing Blake on the run and going "aw, poor her, all alone and stuffs" then sure. But as written it comes across as intentional.
NNinja
04:59:24 PM Oct 7th 2016
Well, we'll have to wait for those scenes until vol.4. So far we've only seen what i said we've seen.
Wyldchyld
11:31:07 AM Oct 28th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Well, that pothole doesn't really apply to this situation, but I completely agree that it's not this trope. Blake running away doesn't trigger Yang's Heroic B.S.O.D. but it is clear that Yang's depression is made worse by Blake's actions. We only learn about Blake's actions from Yang and it's very much only Yang's perspective we have for what's happened. Yang does not view what Blake's done as acceptable. She doesn't understand Blake's motives, has clearly jumped to conclusions, and is angry, bitter and unforgiving.

Blake's departure is not introduced to the viewer in a positive or sympathetic way. It's introduced through the eyes of someone who is hurting very, very deeply and who is feeling betrayed.
Ferot_Dreadnaught
Topic
07:48:55 PM Oct 3rd 2016
  • Thor himself in Thor fits this. The audience is meant to sympathize with his being thrown out of Asgard for his arrogance, but since he brought this on himself by literally starting an interdimensional war, it's hard to actually relate. Contrast with Loki, who may as well be the actual protagonist of the film - his adoptive brother is clearly irresponsible beyond reason, and his entire family has been hiding his heritage from him for literal centuries. His actions still aren't justified, but they're much more understandable than the Odinson's.

I'm under the impression Thor realizing the error of his ways was the point of the movie, invalidating the unintentional aspect. Is that so?

Loki's stuff can be moved to Unintentionally Sympathetic.
Larkmarn
07:48:26 AM Oct 4th 2016
Yeah, Thor in the beginning is supposed to be a jerkass, that's the whole point. That said, if his "yes, I have learned and grown" comes up hollow, he can certainly still qualify.

That's just, you know, not even a little bit what the entry is stating.
Monsund
Topic
04:44:54 PM Aug 29th 2016
The Mai entry was rewritten in a way that takes away context, and to basically be a Take That! to people hold that view.

Here's the edit I put down.
  • Mai from Dragon Ball Super is seemingly supposed to be viewed as a cute Love Interest for Kid Trunks. However she can come off as unsympathetic considering she's a grown woman in a child's body, and flirts with a child who's unaware of the truth. Made worse in the future timeline where the manga reveals she used up Shenron's last wish on the selfish wish for her, and her comrades to have young bodies again, preventing Future Gohan from wishing any of those killed back as shortly after Piccolo was killed.

Here's the Rewrite by Ramona 122003
  • Future Mai from Dragon Ball Super comes off as this to a vocal section of the fandom. She, like Future Trunks, survived the terror of the androids, may have lost her dear friends Pilaf and Shu, and is terrorized by Black who is destroying the remained of humanity. What makes her unsympathetic to some is that she gained her youth from the final wish from Shenron before Piccolo is killed, preventing Future Bulma and Gohan, from using the Dragon Balls to wish back everyone who was killed by the androids, even if it was Pilaf who made the final wish.
I think this rewrite makes the whole thing less clear, and I think some parts come off as a take that.

These are the parts, I think are in the vein of a Take That.
  • to a vocal section of the fandom
  • even if it was Pilaf who made the final wish.

I feel the original entry is more clear, and to the point. The rewrite is just full of nitpicks, and basically saying if you think this, you're wrong.
NNinja
01:54:11 PM Sep 22nd 2016
I'm still trying to find time to finally watch DBS so i'm not sure how valid this entry is. I generally agree that entry shouldn't be written in a way that makes it look like it's wrong. I'm ok with entry implying that not everyone thinks that, but the new entry makes tries to make her look like The Woobie rather than this. As for entry's validity the part of the original about flirting with Trunks should come back. The part about wish... if it was Mai's wish then the original entry is valid, if it was Pilaf, then that part goes out of the window.
Larkmarn
02:03:14 PM Sep 22nd 2016
Pilaf made the wish, but, you know, she was working for him and that was the plan all along.
NNinja
02:48:07 PM Sep 22nd 2016
I don't remember asking which one did it, and especially not the details. I said how do i see it depending on which one did it. Either way if it was Pilaf, not her, it's not her who's unsympathetic for it. Although there might be a rewrite that's she's unsympathetic for going along with this plan(but not for making the wish, since she didn't)
Monsund
04:41:18 PM Oct 10th 2016
Lets say:

  • Pilaf, Mai, and Shu are traveling together.
  • Shu breaks open the door of a bank, and ties up the accountant.
  • Mai cracks open the safe.
  • And Pilaf takes the money out of the safe.
  • They then spread the money among themselves.

You can't say but it was Pilaf that took the money, when they were all part of the effort to rob the bank.

The same goes for the wish. Pilaf being the one to outright say the wish outloud doesn't change that Mai, and Shu helped him gather the balls for the plan to selfishly use the Dragon Balls for their own personal benefit.
NNinja
06:28:08 AM Oct 12th 2016
But it was Pilaf who took the money. See? I can. Like i said i haven't seen it yet, so i lack the context. But from what Larkmarn said it seems like the whole case was a team effort all along and rewriter just shifted the whole blame on Pilaf. But original entry said she used the wish which is not entirely correct either. If that sentence said "she and her comrades used up Shenron's last wish on the selfish wish for them, to have young bodies again" then it would probably solve the problem.
Monsund
01:10:14 AM Oct 15th 2016
Pilaf took the money, but you can't say Mai didn't take the money because Pilaf was the one to take it out of the safe.

Point being, Pilaf may have been the one to say the wish outloud, but that was the plan of all of them, including Mai.

If Mai had expressed second thoughts, and tried to dissuade Pilaf, or Pilaf had done it with Mai's knowledge/told her he was going to use it to help the world, then Mai wouldn't have responsibility.

Mai did use the wish, as did Pilaf, and Shu. Basically as mentioned, just like in the Bank-robbing example it was a team effort, and they all contributed.

Anyhow if you want the change to be done, I can do it quickly.
Larkmarn
07:37:38 AM Oct 17th 2016
Right, she didn't make the wish but she used the wish.

Agreed with N Ninja's rewriting of the sentence, though. It's just clearer.
ANewMan
Topic
03:53:17 PM May 8th 2016
edited by ANewMan

I cut most of this entry down because, as I said, it goes far beyond the point of the trope (explaining why Starlight's motivations for being Driven to Villainy weren't as sympathetic as the writers intended) and into Complaining About A Redemption You Don't Like. Starlights actions are grossly exaggerated in order to make her out to be a Complete Monster who crossed the Moral Event Horizon yet got off easy for it (Her cult town was far from "a brutal dictatorship": aside from the removal of cutie marks and individuality in order to make ponies better harmonize as a friendly community, it was all about a lack of brutality, and none of the apocalyptic scenarios of alternate timelines she indirectly caused were intended by her, so I don't see why this is something she supposedly can't come back from), the entry indicates that she showed no remorse for her crimes and only made a Heel–Face Turn out of selfishness and convenience for her (which, if you watch the episode, is clearly not true), compared her unfavorably to another character with a similar story and stated opinion on that character's story as though they were fact (I personally found Moondancer a good contender for this trope myself), and went on to complain about her promotion to Sixth Ranger, which was happening whether fans liked it or not.
NNinja
Topic
04:14:14 AM Apr 19th 2016
  • In Death Battle, "Yang Xiao Long vs. Tifa Lockhart", more than a few people have pointed out that despite the episode attempting to depict Yang as the more heroic of the two, it was Yang who started the whole fight by walking into Tifa's bar and beating up the doorman for essentially just doing his job, smashing him through the door and refusing to comply when Tifa asked her to leave the premises. It really leaves a poor taste in some people's mouths, especially seeing as Yang ends up brutally murdering Tifa in the end without a hint of remorse and over an incident that was entirely her own fault. She really comes across as a particularly nasty Sociopathic Hero instead of her usual Nice Girl self and many RWBY fans dislike the depiction.
Since when Death Battle tries to present ANY side as good or bad? This is Let's You and Him Fight: the series, and whatever little plot is there only serves as Excuse Plot to make battle happen. You can't had deadly duel between two good guys, without making one of them look bad.
Larkmarn
08:48:56 AM Apr 19th 2016
A-yup. The controversy may be worth noting somewhere, but not here.
NNinja
Topic
01:57:24 PM Mar 5th 2016
edited by NNinja
  • Iris in The Flash (2014) is put on a pedestal by everyone who knows her, especially Barry. The problem is that they really shouldn't. Even after Barry reveals his feelings for her, and learns they are mutual, she refuses to dump her current boyfriend, Eddie. While this is not bad in itself, she maintains this even after learning she and Barry are destined to be Happily Married. She and Eddie decide Screw Destiny in a manner that makes it seem she's more interested in her happiness than Barry's. She also chewed everyone out for not telling her Barry is the Flash in a very entitled way, despite the fact that she really wouldn't have been that helpful. Finally, she discovers from the mother she thought was dead that she has a brother. Iris angrily tells her to never speak to her again. Her mother is dying and is desperate to reconcile and Iris is basically stabbing her in the heart for something she was going to talk to her about anyway, yet treating it like a betrayal. And despite being angry about not learning Barry is the Flash, she chooses not to tell them what she learned until Christmas. Her response to Cold's Freudian Excuse about a rough childhood, namely everyone in the room had a rough childhood and should get over it, is hollow when you remember that, aside from thinking her mom was dead, she had the most normal childhood of all the people in the room.
This entry either twists or demonises most of the facts that are involved. Yes, Iris did realise that Barry's feelings for her are mutual, but she understood that in a timeline that Barry canceled with time travel. When in the new timeline Barry tried to talk about it, from her perspective it looked Barry was hitting on her out of nowhere knowing perfectly well that she has a boyfriend. The entry about destiny is a little more valid, but aside from the fact that the newspaper didn't tell they will be happy, only that they will be married, the entry says that she's unsympathetic for not chosing Barry over Eddie just because some newspaper from the future told her to. When she learned about Barry being Flash, she did not say that she could be usefull, but that keeping her in dark did not keep her safe at all, on the contrary, it made her unprepared for any potential threats. Episode 3 od season 2 proved she was right, as knowing Barry is the Flash saved her life. When she was talking with Captain Cold she wasn't just talking about herself, but also about Barry whose mmother have been murderded and and father was wrongly accused for that murder, which wasn't exacly easy childhood, and that's ignoring the fact that losing mother isn't exacly nice so she's still right. The only valid part of this entry seemes to be about reuniting with her mother.
EMY3K
Topic
08:16:02 AM Aug 5th 2015
  • In a similar vein there's River Song who was willing to destroy time itself by breaking a fixed point to save the Doctor's life because as she put it the Doctor was worth more to her than all of the universe. Rather than coming off as romantic it instead wouldn't be out of place as a villain's motive rant. Made worse in that while she does give in and allow events to play out it's only because the Doctor told her that he was faking his death, not that she can't put the universe over his own safety.

I have a question about this example. I completely understand why someone would feel that River is this trope. However, I feel as though this is being described out of context. It's not as though she suddenly went crazy and decided to end reality. She was literally kidnapped and had the bulk of her agency taken away in order to murder the Doctor. There was no way to stop that. In fact, trying to stop it was what nearly destroyed time. The other thing to keep in mind is that the River in the suit is still relatively young in the timeline. She hasn't gone through Character Development yet.
ShorinBJ
Topic
05:02:45 PM Jul 9th 2015
edited by ShorinBJ
I think all the examples should be scrapped and the page turned into a simple definition page. It's just an invitation to rant, and YMMV on any of the examples.

Meanwhile, I edited the The House of Night example. Zoey doesn't take issue with her sister having sex or her brother playing violent video games; the problem was that they put on a front of being wholesome, obedient Christian children for the benefit of their mother and stepfather and got treated like they were actually that, while Zoey showed outward signs of having a mind of her own and got labeled the bad seed.
theredlongitude
Topic
10:45:36 PM Apr 23rd 2015
Does anyone really think that Alex from A Clockwork Orange was supposed to be sympathetic? In what universe?
willofone
10:53:26 AM May 15th 2015
if you read the book it will show what the autor intended to say about the situation
EMY3K
Topic
07:36:55 AM Sep 1st 2014
edited by 24.126.51.214
  • Belle in Beauty and the Beast was supposed to be depicted as someone oppressed by her village due to her father as well as her love of books, as well as the epitome of internal beauty. However, she spent the majority of her lyrics in the opening song insulting her fellow villagers, and during the wedding the way she got Gaston out made it seem as though she was deliberately trying to trick Gaston into falling into a mudpool, and then took amusement at his humiliation (which in a way made her out to be as big of a jerk as Gaston), as well as disobeying her stipulation of staying away from the West Wing despite the Beast explicitly telling her it was a forbidden area, nearly destroyed Beast's literal lifeline, explicitly broke the agreement she made with the Beast and nearly got herself and him killed by wolves, and then effectively foolishly exposing the Beast to a crowd of villagers who were obviously congregated into a mob to take Maurice to the happy farm, thus endangering him and his servants. It also doesn't help that her foils, the Bimbettes, actually came closer to actual internal beauty from their actions in the limited screentime they had than Belle did in the entirety of her film.
    • Apparently, the musical writers noticed that how Belle handled Gaston's proposal in the film made her look very bad, considering that they instead had Belle politely and timidly refuse Gaston's hand in marriage after the latter sung a self-praising song about himself aptly called "Me."

One point at a time:

1). What Belle was saying in the song was that she felt frustrated that no one in the village (except the librarian) understood her. Considering that they were all willing to stand behind Gaston when he tried to force her hand in marriage by committing her father to the asylum, it's a fair point.

2.). When she got Gaston out, he had her against the door and was trying to kiss her and get her to marry him after she had clearly said that she wasn't interested. Considering the situation, she's entitled to enjoy seeing him in the mud.

3.). Yes, exposing the Beast to the mob was stupidly impulsive. However, at the time, she was trying to save her father from the asylum and herself from a forced marriage. That's not unsympathetic at all.
MagBas
08:44:57 AM Sep 1st 2014
This is an Audience Reaction. A character sympathetic to a person is not necessarily sympathetic to other.
emeriin
08:46:44 AM Sep 1st 2014
The person who added this was banned though. And acting like Belle was the bad guy to Gaston is just Victim Blaming.
Silverblade2
Topic
08:26:52 AM Jun 9th 2014
So Severus Snape from Harry Potter is both in Unintentionally Sympathetic and Unintentionally Unsympathetic ? Well one should makes your mind. Personnally I do not think the narrative was tryng to excuse his jerkass behavior toward Harry. As for James and Lily's death, he's clearly The Atoner.
Sakubara
11:12:14 AM Sep 4th 2016
edited by Sakubara
To be perfectly honest, this is why I think this should only be a definition since half of the examples are suggestive and/or just people using this as an excuse to Complain About Characters They Don't Like
Ferot_Dreadnaught
11:21:09 AM Sep 4th 2016
As a YMMV trope, this is subjective by definition. The Snape example was cut, so bad examples are being fixed. If you find many examples of misuse, take them to Trope Repair Shop, then it can be divided if it needs a fixing.
Tarvok
Topic
08:52:30 AM Jan 16th 2014
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't the the Star Trek: Insurrection example holds up. Picard wasn't protecting the Baku against an insidious Federation plot to replace them with Federation colonists. The plan was to totally remove the planet's "magic radiation junk" or whatever it was and move it elsewhere, after which it would *hopefully* continue to work as it did in its current configuration.

A different Star Trek captain might have pointed out that there is no guarantee the "stuff" will still work once it is disturbed, and it would probably be a much better idea to leave it as it is, assign a science team to study the phenomenon, establish a medical facility at some point sufficiently distant from the Baku to avoid disrupting their lifestyle, and hopefully replicate the effect elsewhere at some point... NOT rip it to shreds in the hopes that it will magically still work under completely different circumstances.
pimpdaddy
Topic
08:53:27 PM Jan 18th 2011
Is there any difference between this and Designated Hero and Designated Hero Syndrome
DrakeClawfang
09:35:12 AM Jan 16th 2014
Yes. Designated Hero refers to a character who is treated as a hero but does not act like one. This trope is for any character, hero or not, that is intended to be sympathetic but comes off as not.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Main.UnintentionallyUnsympathetic