09:33:54 PM Jul 20th 2017
I think we need to clean up the Naruto section. It lists ten different characters, and some of the entries are misleading, e.g. It doesn't mention Obito's Face Turn during the final battle, or that he died saving the heroes from an attack, instead talking about him like he was just a straight villain until the end.
05:58:17 AM Apr 22nd 2017
Does anyone else think that this page, like Creator's Pet, should only have "blatantly obvious or creator-acknowledged examples" on it? I've noticed many examples, such as the Persona 5 ones, have evidence that's seemingly cherry-picked and used to portray the character in the worst possible light, while condescendingly saying something to the effect of "The author wants us to believe this character's sympathetic, but if you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you," so some examples are of people not liking a character who isn't designated as totally unsympathetic. If anything, requiring some Word of God saying that the characters were supposed to be sympathetic- for example, the author of Magical Record Lyrical Nanoha Force talking about the Huckebein- would be clear evidence that we were supposed to sympathize with those characters, while a lot of people don't feel that way. This may be a YMMV trope, but there needs to be evidence that the characters were supposed to be sympathetic, or else it comes off as complaining about characters you don't like. Incidentally, Unintentionally Sympathetic is significantly better about this- not only does it have more proof as to how we were supposed to view those characters, but it also suggests that maybe it isn't always the author's fault.
07:16:37 AM Apr 22nd 2017
I think it might be a good start, though I can think of at least one example (Hobb, from Robocop 2) who fits the trope very well but wouldn't quite pass that hurdle.
12:43:49 AM Jan 29th 2017
Question: How can characters like Superboy Prime or Master Xehanort be Unintentionally Unsympathetic...If they are labelled as Complete Monsters? By that logic, Lotso Huggin Bear and several other pure evil villains should be on here. Just saying, which one is it? Pick a trope and stick with it!
04:35:37 AM Jan 29th 2017
edited by MagBas
edited by MagBas
03:10:45 PM Oct 17th 2016
- While Edgeworth had Unintentionally Sympathetic moments as an Amoral Attorney, he likewise has some of these as The Atoner — from giving No Sympathy to a confirmed-suicidal witness in "Farewell, My Turnabout," to rejecting the "Turnabout Time Traveler" defendant's self-defense plea (despite that remaining her only plausible motive as the trial goes on) and even trying to use her Despair Event Horizon over potentially losing her fiance's trust to coerce a confession. The game tries to justify these by citing his sheer stress from trying to reform the entire Prosecutor's Office, but it'd be a lot more understandable if he didn't act like a complete Smug Snake during them.
08:15:52 AM Oct 4th 2016
- Blake Belladonna in RWBY after the events of Volume 3's finale. While her actions from that - running away to protect everyone from Adam Taurus' Yandere-like wrath - has incredible merit, it's the fact that she ran off without telling anyone that she was running away to protect them that has caused many fans to never forgive her for it. What makes this hurt even worse for the fanbase is that Yang Xiao Long essentially risked her life, lost her right arm in trying to save her and this is how Blake repaid her. This ends up triggering a very powerful Heroic B.S.O.D. in Yang that, when the Volume closes, she is several months in and shows no sign of escaping. Nice Job Breaking It, Blake.
10:48:18 AM Oct 4th 2016
edited by Larkmarn
edited by Larkmarn
From the writeup it seems like it doesn't apply. The Nice Job Breaking It, Hero! pothole there kinda seals it... it's seems like it's supposed to be pretty clear that she effed up. Now, if there's other scenes showing Blake on the run and going "aw, poor her, all alone and stuffs" then sure. But as written it comes across as intentional.
04:59:24 PM Oct 7th 2016
Well, we'll have to wait for those scenes until vol.4. So far we've only seen what i said we've seen.
11:31:07 AM Oct 28th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
edited by Wyldchyld
Well, that pothole doesn't really apply to this situation, but I completely agree that it's not this trope. Blake running away doesn't trigger Yang's Heroic B.S.O.D. but it is clear that Yang's depression is made worse by Blake's actions. We only learn about Blake's actions from Yang and it's very much only Yang's perspective we have for what's happened. Yang does not view what Blake's done as acceptable. She doesn't understand Blake's motives, has clearly jumped to conclusions, and is angry, bitter and unforgiving. Blake's departure is not introduced to the viewer in a positive or sympathetic way. It's introduced through the eyes of someone who is hurting very, very deeply and who is feeling betrayed.
07:48:55 PM Oct 3rd 2016
- Thor himself in Thor fits this. The audience is meant to sympathize with his being thrown out of Asgard for his arrogance, but since he brought this on himself by literally starting an interdimensional war, it's hard to actually relate. Contrast with Loki, who may as well be the actual protagonist of the film - his adoptive brother is clearly irresponsible beyond reason, and his entire family has been hiding his heritage from him for literal centuries. His actions still aren't justified, but they're much more understandable than the Odinson's.
04:44:54 PM Aug 29th 2016
The Mai entry was rewritten in a way that takes away context, and to basically be a Take That! to people hold that view. Here's the edit I put down.
- Mai from Dragon Ball Super is seemingly supposed to be viewed as a cute Love Interest for Kid Trunks. However she can come off as unsympathetic considering she's a grown woman in a child's body, and flirts with a child who's unaware of the truth. Made worse in the future timeline where the manga reveals she used up Shenron's last wish on the selfish wish for her, and her comrades to have young bodies again, preventing Future Gohan from wishing any of those killed back as shortly after Piccolo was killed.
- Future Mai from Dragon Ball Super comes off as this to a vocal section of the fandom. She, like Future Trunks, survived the terror of the androids, may have lost her dear friends Pilaf and Shu, and is terrorized by Black who is destroying the remained of humanity. What makes her unsympathetic to some is that she gained her youth from the final wish from Shenron before Piccolo is killed, preventing Future Bulma and Gohan, from using the Dragon Balls to wish back everyone who was killed by the androids, even if it was Pilaf who made the final wish.
- to a vocal section of the fandom
- even if it was Pilaf who made the final wish.
01:54:11 PM Sep 22nd 2016
I'm still trying to find time to finally watch DBS so i'm not sure how valid this entry is. I generally agree that entry shouldn't be written in a way that makes it look like it's wrong. I'm ok with entry implying that not everyone thinks that, but the new entry makes tries to make her look like The Woobie rather than this. As for entry's validity the part of the original about flirting with Trunks should come back. The part about wish... if it was Mai's wish then the original entry is valid, if it was Pilaf, then that part goes out of the window.
02:03:14 PM Sep 22nd 2016
Pilaf made the wish, but, you know, she was working for him and that was the plan all along.
02:48:07 PM Sep 22nd 2016
I don't remember asking which one did it, and especially not the details. I said how do i see it depending on which one did it. Either way if it was Pilaf, not her, it's not her who's unsympathetic for it. Although there might be a rewrite that's she's unsympathetic for going along with this plan(but not for making the wish, since she didn't)
04:41:18 PM Oct 10th 2016
- Pilaf, Mai, and Shu are traveling together.
- Shu breaks open the door of a bank, and ties up the accountant.
- Mai cracks open the safe.
- And Pilaf takes the money out of the safe.
- They then spread the money among themselves.
06:28:08 AM Oct 12th 2016
But it was Pilaf who took the money. See? I can. Like i said i haven't seen it yet, so i lack the context. But from what Larkmarn said it seems like the whole case was a team effort all along and rewriter just shifted the whole blame on Pilaf. But original entry said she used the wish which is not entirely correct either. If that sentence said "she and her comrades used up Shenron's last wish on the selfish wish for them, to have young bodies again" then it would probably solve the problem.
01:10:14 AM Oct 15th 2016
Pilaf took the money, but you can't say Mai didn't take the money because Pilaf was the one to take it out of the safe. Point being, Pilaf may have been the one to say the wish outloud, but that was the plan of all of them, including Mai. If Mai had expressed second thoughts, and tried to dissuade Pilaf, or Pilaf had done it with Mai's knowledge/told her he was going to use it to help the world, then Mai wouldn't have responsibility. Mai did use the wish, as did Pilaf, and Shu. Basically as mentioned, just like in the Bank-robbing example it was a team effort, and they all contributed. Anyhow if you want the change to be done, I can do it quickly.
07:37:38 AM Oct 17th 2016
Right, she didn't make the wish but she used the wish. Agreed with N Ninja's rewriting of the sentence, though. It's just clearer.
03:53:17 PM May 8th 2016
edited by ANewMan
edited by ANewMan
- Starlight Glimmer was hit with this badly in the Season 5 finale. Her Freudian Excuse was poor at best (losing a single friend in her childhood, and not even shown trying to keep in touch with him) while her actions were downright abominable in comparison. In the season 5 premiere, she created a brutal dictatorship/cult where her followers are enslaved, brainwashed, and have their talents forcibly suppressed, and she used force to make the Mane 6 join them. In the season finale, she travels through time in order to get revenge against one single pony, causing several apocalyptic scenarios in the process. Not helping her case was her abrupt Heel–Face Turn at the end (even fans who like her reformation admit this), which only happened because Starlight was given a chance to make her life better (rather than because she might have destroyed Equestria). Additionally, her backstory is almost identical to Moondancer, who was a far more likable and well-received character whose reconciliation with Twilight is considered one of, if not the, finest moments of Season 5. Starlight was meant to be a Broken Bird who had been Driven to Villainy and ultimately saw the light, but was seen and reviled by the majority of fans as a spoiled-rotten and childish Karma Houdini who was forgiven way too easily for all the terrible things she did. What made it worse is that it seems to be implied that Starlight is now a Sixth Ranger to the Mane 6. While other villains have been Easily Forgiven, fans weren't expected to let them join the main cast.
04:14:14 AM Apr 19th 2016
- In Death Battle, "Yang Xiao Long vs. Tifa Lockhart", more than a few people have pointed out that despite the episode attempting to depict Yang as the more heroic of the two, it was Yang who started the whole fight by walking into Tifa's bar and beating up the doorman for essentially just doing his job, smashing him through the door and refusing to comply when Tifa asked her to leave the premises. It really leaves a poor taste in some people's mouths, especially seeing as Yang ends up brutally murdering Tifa in the end without a hint of remorse and over an incident that was entirely her own fault. She really comes across as a particularly nasty Sociopathic Hero instead of her usual Nice Girl self and many RWBY fans dislike the depiction.
01:57:24 PM Mar 5th 2016
edited by NNinja
edited by NNinja
- Iris in The Flash (2014) is put on a pedestal by everyone who knows her, especially Barry. The problem is that they really shouldn't. Even after Barry reveals his feelings for her, and learns they are mutual, she refuses to dump her current boyfriend, Eddie. While this is not bad in itself, she maintains this even after learning she and Barry are destined to be Happily Married. She and Eddie decide Screw Destiny in a manner that makes it seem she's more interested in her happiness than Barry's. She also chewed everyone out for not telling her Barry is the Flash in a very entitled way, despite the fact that she really wouldn't have been that helpful. Finally, she discovers from the mother she thought was dead that she has a brother. Iris angrily tells her to never speak to her again. Her mother is dying and is desperate to reconcile and Iris is basically stabbing her in the heart for something she was going to talk to her about anyway, yet treating it like a betrayal. And despite being angry about not learning Barry is the Flash, she chooses not to tell them what she learned until Christmas. Her response to Cold's Freudian Excuse about a rough childhood, namely everyone in the room had a rough childhood and should get over it, is hollow when you remember that, aside from thinking her mom was dead, she had the most normal childhood of all the people in the room.
08:16:02 AM Aug 5th 2015
- In a similar vein there's River Song who was willing to destroy time itself by breaking a fixed point to save the Doctor's life because as she put it the Doctor was worth more to her than all of the universe. Rather than coming off as romantic it instead wouldn't be out of place as a villain's motive rant. Made worse in that while she does give in and allow events to play out it's only because the Doctor told her that he was faking his death, not that she can't put the universe over his own safety.
05:02:45 PM Jul 9th 2015
edited by ShorinBJ
edited by ShorinBJ
I think all the examples should be scrapped and the page turned into a simple definition page. It's just an invitation to rant, and YMMV on any of the examples. Meanwhile, I edited the The House of Night example. Zoey doesn't take issue with her sister having sex or her brother playing violent video games; the problem was that they put on a front of being wholesome, obedient Christian children for the benefit of their mother and stepfather and got treated like they were actually that, while Zoey showed outward signs of having a mind of her own and got labeled the bad seed.
10:45:36 PM Apr 23rd 2015
Does anyone really think that Alex from A Clockwork Orange was supposed to be sympathetic? In what universe?
07:36:55 AM Sep 1st 2014
edited by 184.108.40.206
edited by 220.127.116.11
- Belle in Beauty and the Beast was supposed to be depicted as someone oppressed by her village due to her father as well as her love of books, as well as the epitome of internal beauty. However, she spent the majority of her lyrics in the opening song insulting her fellow villagers, and during the wedding the way she got Gaston out made it seem as though she was deliberately trying to trick Gaston into falling into a mudpool, and then took amusement at his humiliation (which in a way made her out to be as big of a jerk as Gaston), as well as disobeying her stipulation of staying away from the West Wing despite the Beast explicitly telling her it was a forbidden area, nearly destroyed Beast's literal lifeline, explicitly broke the agreement she made with the Beast and nearly got herself and him killed by wolves, and then effectively foolishly exposing the Beast to a crowd of villagers who were obviously congregated into a mob to take Maurice to the happy farm, thus endangering him and his servants. It also doesn't help that her foils, the Bimbettes, actually came closer to actual internal beauty from their actions in the limited screentime they had than Belle did in the entirety of her film.
- Apparently, the musical writers noticed that how Belle handled Gaston's proposal in the film made her look very bad, considering that they instead had Belle politely and timidly refuse Gaston's hand in marriage after the latter sung a self-praising song about himself aptly called "Me."
08:44:57 AM Sep 1st 2014
This is an Audience Reaction. A character sympathetic to a person is not necessarily sympathetic to other.
08:46:44 AM Sep 1st 2014
The person who added this was banned though. And acting like Belle was the bad guy to Gaston is just Victim Blaming.
08:26:52 AM Jun 9th 2014
11:12:14 AM Sep 4th 2016
edited by Sakubara
edited by Sakubara
To be perfectly honest, this is why I think this should only be a definition since half of the examples are suggestive and/or just people using this as an excuse to Complain About Characters They Don't Like
11:21:09 AM Sep 4th 2016
As a YMMV trope, this is subjective by definition. The Snape example was cut, so bad examples are being fixed. If you find many examples of misuse, take them to Trope Repair Shop, then it can be divided if it needs a fixing.
08:52:30 AM Jan 16th 2014
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't the the Star Trek: Insurrection example holds up. Picard wasn't protecting the Baku against an insidious Federation plot to replace them with Federation colonists. The plan was to totally remove the planet's "magic radiation junk" or whatever it was and move it elsewhere, after which it would *hopefully* continue to work as it did in its current configuration. A different Star Trek captain might have pointed out that there is no guarantee the "stuff" will still work once it is disturbed, and it would probably be a much better idea to leave it as it is, assign a science team to study the phenomenon, establish a medical facility at some point sufficiently distant from the Baku to avoid disrupting their lifestyle, and hopefully replicate the effect elsewhere at some point... NOT rip it to shreds in the hopes that it will magically still work under completely different circumstances.
08:53:27 PM Jan 18th 2011
09:35:12 AM Jan 16th 2014
Yes. Designated Hero refers to a character who is treated as a hero but does not act like one. This trope is for any character, hero or not, that is intended to be sympathetic but comes off as not.