Discussion Characters / RWBYMonstersAndEnemies

Sure.

They don't belong to the villains, but they have mostly shown up in an antagonist role so putting them on the allies page doesn't make sense at this point.

I asked on the RWBY forum thread a couple of weeks ago about splitting some of these pages up and there was general agreement. I was going to kick off a sandbox to separate out the pages but haven't got around to it yet. What I was thinking of doing was something like this:

• Team RWBY (with separate weapon sections removed)
• Team JNPR (with separate weapon sections removed)
• Friends and allies (not the current page; Team SSSN, Team CFVY, etc.)
• Kingdoms (Basically the current Friends and Allies page plus the Beacon Academy staff plus the Vytal Festival plus the Others pages; covering characters that aren't confirmed friends or enemies because their status is unknown or because they're minor, location-specific, neutral, etc. For example, Raven could be here because she's Mistral-based, which would solve the problem of knowing whether or not she's a true antagonist)
• Monsters (Grimm list from the Monsters and Enemies page)
• White Fang (White Fang members from the Monsters and Enemies page
• Salem's group (Salem, Hazel, Watts, Tyrian, Cinder, Emerald, Mercury, Roman, Neo would all go here)
• Antagonists (other antagonists, such as Team CRDL, the Club, Schnee Dust Company, etc.)
• Other: Possibly a Franchise page for detailing things that are happening in video games and the manga that aren't cropping up in the main show. (Excluding Chibi, obviously.)
• Other: Possibly an Equipment page if people really want to detail things like Paladins and the White Trailer's Knight but equipment really shouldn't be on a character page; they're tools, not characters).

That means we'd get rid of the current pages:

• Team RWBY (modify), Team JNPR (modify), Beacon Academy (remove), Friends and Allies (remove), Monsters and Enemies (remove), Vytal Festival Tournament (remove), Other (remove)

And replace with:

• Team RWBY (altered), Team JNPR (altered), Friends and Allies (new), Kingdoms (new), White Fang (new), Monsters (new), Salem's group (new), Antagonists (new), Other (new).

However, it needs a consensus, so I was going to post this on the RWBY Forum thread and then sandbox it and see what people think. If they don't like it, we can delete the sandbox and try something else.

Most of that sounds good to me, but how do you define who goes on Friends and Allies and who goes on Kingdoms? Team CFVY could just as easily go under Kingdom of Vale, SSSN under Mistral, Penny could be under Friends or Atlas, etc.

They're confirmed friends/allies of the main characters. The Kingdoms page would be more for neutral characters, minor characters who may not be in it long enough to form relationships with the main characters of any alignment, or characters who have ambiguous roles in the storyline (such as Raven) that don't allow us to confirm whether they're friends, allies or antagonists.

Beyond that, you're correct. Characters that are on either the Friends/Allies page or the Antagonists page would easily fit on the Kingdoms page.

It's an attempt to stop the Kingdoms page becoming too massive. As it is, we may end up finding ourselves needing to split the Kingdoms page, but at least we'd have a clear split to create (Kingdom of Vale, Kingdom of Atlas, Menagerie, etc.).

The reason I'm going to do it in a sandbox first (aside from the sheer scale of the changes) is so that people can review it when it's up and suggest rearrangements if they're needed, including what pages should (or shouldn't) exist. Sometimes a thing sounds good inside a person's head, but once it's on paper, it doesn't look so good. My plan for the sandbox was to default most of the characters to the Kingdoms page (partially to see how big that page gets) and then ask who needs to stay on that page and who needs to be moved to Friends/Allies or Antagonists; the only ones I was going to start on the alignment pages are SSSN and CFVY on the Friends/Allies page and CRDL, the Club and SDC on the Antagonists page.

For example, I envisage the Beacon teachers being on the Kingdoms page because they play mentor roles to the main characters. However, most people might want them on the Friends/Allies page instead... because they play mentor roles to the main characters. By the same token, CRDL may not be eligible for the Antagonists page and people might feel they're better placed on the Kingdoms page.

I see. I think this is a good idea. One last thing, though: The Knight is confirmed to be a type of Grimm called Armor Gigas, so it should go on the Creatures of Grimm page instead of Other.

I think splitting the non-Grimm antagonists into "Salem's group" and "Antagonists" is not necessary at this point. There are not that many antagonists.

Yeah, while Mercury likes hurting people, beyond that he's not shown signs of instability. He's a sociopath and has hints of sadism, but not impulsive or shows control issues.

You want Ax-Crazy, you look a Tyrian.

Dunno why Red and Black and Evil All Over should be removed. His design prominently features red and black and he's a bad guy. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

@Eagal Read my post and then read this part: "His current behaviour, including victim-blaming her for "forcing" him to hurt her, indicates that he is abusive towards her." and "He has no problem killing humans, even when he doesn't need to and his goal is the destruction of humanity rather than equal rights for Faunus."

They're called the Hero Killer for a reason.

Downplayed, maybe?

Or shoehorned?

I think that, for the amount of villains the series has, it takes more than defeating two characters to be added to the trope.

It's not always a good idea to trope what creators say rather than what appears in a show, because it's not uncommon for what creators want to not be anything like what they end up portraying to readers/audiences, and tropes about what appears in the work, not what creators had originally intended (which is more like trivia than tropes).

I saw the livestream, so I completely agree that the creators fully intend Adam to be abusive, and Adam's scene with Blake is completely what you'd expect from the portrayal in media of a domestic abuser. The scene itself is not much to go on by itself (in terms of knowing their back story), but it's definitely an abusive scene in its own right.

So far, no scene has been shown or insinuated that confirms or implies that he is abusive. The only thing that has the people to support their allegation of abuse, is a very, very limited and decontextualized commentary of the staff of the series, where they say that his behavior only at the end of volume 3 seemed to be abusive, and do not expanse nothing else. Some part of the fandom see his battle against Blake and Yang as an irrefutable and very clear proof of his abuse but this statement is subjective, since the character only adds a more personal mark to his resentment towards the first. With the firts logic , any character, man or woman, adult or teenager, good or bad, etc., who felt resentment towards his ex, and faced him/her in a battle, would be abusive. While reading the article, it seems that the editor searched for all the tropes, there must be thousands of tropes, to confirm the abuse, making it look like the Joker X Harley Queen relationship, for example, when this relationship, has explicit and everyday scenes that confirm the abuse. I think that we should look for more tropes around a former resentful boyfriend and leave the accusation of abuse for a trope that would imply that this may be confirmed in the future but that at the moment does not have a very solid proof.

On the other hand I consider that All Abusers Are Male and Double Standar are not completely wrong. If you ask the fandom who is an abuser, they will answer without doubt that only Adam. And if you ask they what their opinion of the character, they will make it very clear that he is the most hated. But Neo brutally humbled Yang and unlike Adam she did with visible enjoyment and Cinder orchestrated the fall of Beacon (forcing Adam to support her), but the fandom sees Neo as their loli waifu and Cinder (although they hate her in a 50 %) as their dominatrix waifu .

The Wham tropes are about changing the course of a storyline, from the direction it was going in before (be it a line, scene or episode). Anything that can be foreshadowed in the work, or is guessed or anticipated by the fandom prior to it happen is excluded from the Wham tropes.

Leo's situation was set up in the show as a lead-up to the reveal, and fans had guessed it was going to happen long before the scene occurred.

The correct trope is The Reveal, not Wham Shot. I've got no problem with it being spoiler tagged, if it's under the correct trope.

You missed the point of the trope. While Kick The Son Of A Bitch CAN be used as Start of Darkness, the trope itself is something else entirely. Basically it's Kick the Dog, when The Dog deserved it. While Watts is pretty much evil already(assuming Salem's side is evil here) i don't think that alone disqualifies it. I'd say it fits.

I'm with N Ninja. This does see a lot of misuse, yes, but not in that way. The trope is "this character does something bad, and they do it to a bad person." They don't have to be starting on the path to evil or anything like that.

THAT SAID, the example as-written doesn't seem to fit. Or at least lacks context. It needs to establish that the action was a Kick the Dog one, and that the victim is bad. This only establishes the victim part. As-written it's more Catharsis Factor.

Let's wait and see. Judging by the next episode's preview, he's about to face Qrow. Given that Qrow is a fully-trained and experienced fighter, Tyrian's performance against him should settle the debate on this trope.

Mmkay, if no one responds in another day or two, I'm putting it back. Hope this doesn't turn into an edit war.

It's usually worth popping an edit reason into the history page or sending a PM, so people know a new discussion has started.

Okay, the entry that I took down. Salem's comment:

Volume 1 showed us the White Fang's leadership threesome while giving us a quick overview of recent history. The silhouette picture almost implies the middle one, facing the camera and grinning, is the leader - but the one that has a cat-like silhouette is off to the left (Adam's profile fits the silhouette on the right). Adam has also been described as a White Fang leader.

Until the show confirms the balance of power among the three leaders, we're guessing how best to apply Salem's comment to what little we know. Yes, Salem makes it sound like Sienna is the overall leader, but we don't know the roles they played during the coup, the roles they play now, or how the balance between the threesome truly works.

We don't even know how they forced the old leader to step down.

I've copied the folder at the bottom of this post, but of the four tropes I removed, only one can be classed as 'premature but likely to be relevant'. The other three are shoehorning at best and misuse at worst (and the silhouettes appeared in 'Black and White', not 'The Stray').

Folders go up when there are three tropes that can be applied. That's why I took the folder down.

• The Corrupter: Guesswork and probably misuse. This is a motive and methods trope, which we can't apply to a character we know almost nothing about. As I said, we don't have enough information on the White Fang, but we do know there were two factions (peaceful vs violent), and the violent one had three leaders. If there is a corruption plan stemming from a single person, that person is likely to be Salem and her already stated 'divide and conquer' plot. She's the one plotting to bring out the worst in people.
• The Ghost: Misuse. This is for characters who have never been seen in the story. Not for ones that have a delayed entrance (which Salem's comment indicates will be the case with Sienna). Besides, if Sienna is one of the three silhouettes from Volume 1, they've technically appeared on screen (just as a silhouette).
• Greater-Scope Villain: Misuse. This is the villain that's more dangerous and more significant to the setting than even the story's Big Bad. The candidate for the first three volumes is Salem. Given what Cinder did to Adam and what Salem says to Hazel, the White Fang are small fry - Adam and Sienna are pawns.
• Shout-Out may turn out to be true, but is premature troping right now.

Alright, that's fair. Though I'll point out that there's no indication the previous leader was 'forced' to step down. (Might have double-posted this on accident; I think the site ate my first reply)

Neo can supernaturally change her appearance. All the creators have told us is that her abilities are illusory-based/like. In other words, they have not confirmed she is definitely a Master of Illusion, and the scene in which she changes back to her normal appearance is almost like watching a holographic projection being switched off.

That scene only tells us what special effect accompanies her appearance changes. It doesn't tell us if it's illusion, shapeshifting, some kind of holographic projection, or anything else people might what to speculate about.

As you said, the scene isn't supposed to explain anything. If something hasn't been explained yet, we can't know which trope to use.

What does it matter? Even if it was a result of her illusory powers, we know her illusions are physically present. "Illusory-based/like" is not enough to tell us that she can't shapeshift. That would fall under that heading.

You are breaking this down into such tiny parts it's ridiculous. It only tells us what special effect accompanies her appearance changes. You're missing the point: there was an on-screen appearance change.

And frankly, it isn't like watching a holographic projection being turned off. We've seen holograms in this show, and they don't look anything like that.

We've entered hiatus. Unless you feel like tweeting Miles and Kerry about this, there is just not enough reason not to add this trope.

Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way. Tropes Are Flexible, and Neo's powers might be too. Shapeshifting doesn't have to be a separate power altogether from Master of Illusion, it may just be a special application of the illusion power, the point being that it would still qualify.

Look at the Schnee Semblance, they can do three entirely unrelated things: gravitational exertion, time dilation, and summoning. Ruby can Blow You Away using a power that only affects her own speed. Blake developed her own Semblance enough to mimic not only herself, but Yang's form as well.

What I'm saying here is that you seem fixated on the explicit power in question being something other than Shapeshifting, but that doesn't necessarily mean the trope itself doesn't apply.

No, I'm pointing out that we have no idea which tropes apply. For all we know, every single one of them applies... or maybe none of them do.

We can't yet trope what we don't know.

There's nothing wrong with waiting until we know what to trope.

We do have an idea. We have had hints all volume culminating in a culpable scene. We have more than an idea. You're being very, very overly cautious about a very deliberate reveal.

We've had more than just hints to know that she changes her appearance. We finally see what it looks like when she does change appearance. However, we have no idea how she's changing her appearance (and therefore which trope applies).

This is getting incredibly semantic. Do you have any reason not to add this beyond not having a detailed explanation of how she changes form despite seeing it onscreen?

There is absolutely nothing semantic about the story not explaining the "how" of what we see. It's the "how" that will define which trope we end up using.

There's nothing wrong with waiting patiently to learn which trope will be the correct one to use. In the meantime, if you wish to speculate that she's engaging in actual shapeshifting (as opposed to some kind of illusion ability), the WMG page is available for use.

I have already told you it doesn't matter which specific ability she's using. That's why this is semantic. I'm re-adding this.

Silence, I've mentioned this before, but you don't just readd a trope just because you and the person you're in discussion with cannot reach agreement. If the two of us cannot reach agreement, we have to get a third party involved to give us advice.

You have to stop losing patience so quickly with this process. The way TV Tropes handles discussion does work - but only if you're willing to be patient with the process.

Edited to add: The Is This An Example? thread has been pointed out to me. I've put the example over there to get feedback on it.

The Is This An Example? thread has suggested her appearance switches are too ambiguous to be Shapeshifting, and advised the use of Master of Disguise until more information is known.

I've therefore tweaked the Shapeshifting example and placed it under Master of Disguise.

No spoiler tags on folder titles, because a) it makes hovering over them to tell the content difficult and b) it's unlikely that there might be a good reason.

They may be partners, they may be master and servant, or Cinder might even be the one controlling Salem. All we know is they're working together, so it's too early to place her as the Dragon.

Salem's almost certainly the true villain, and Cinder probably doesn't fully understand what she's dealing with. However, there isn't enough in the show to trope that right now. Greater-Scope Villain does appear to be the best choice for now until we know more.

Either way, regardless of whether or not Cinder is The Dragon (and I agree it's too early to trope that), she is The Heavy of Volumes 1-3, there's no doubting that one.

Isn't Uncanny Valley about something looking off because of humanoid attributes? What makes Salem off in such a manner?

Salem isn't Uncanny Valley. If she was trying too hard to come across as human, she might qualify, but she's not hiding how inhuman she is.

The forum thread has discussed the possibility of a separate manga section, but nothing's been agreed. It's probably best just to leave the information under the Knight's section for now. I'm sure when there are more chapters, the fandom will have a better idea of how to trope it.

The manga doesn't seem to match up with what's been shown in the series. The series, and World of Remnant, explicitly state that Grimm cannot be controlled and tamed or contained, which is why Cinder's usage of the parasitic Grimm is so shocking. Therefore, I'm going to remove it until someone gets an answer from Miles and Kerry.

There's a difference between controlling something and containing it.

You would need to contain them to control them. Otherwise, the Grimm would not present any credible threat.

But individual Grimm have already been contained. Port's Borbatusk and the WF Grimm for example.

According to the entry, this is a swarm of Grimm, not a single one like those examples. Also, why was it added back? It's still on the discussion page.

If you add it back again, at least make it clear that it's a manga-only detail and may not be canon.

As far as I know, the WoR has suggested that Grimm cannot be controlled in the sense that a trained dog or horse can be controlled. Has the show claimed the Grimm cannot be controlled through special abilities or technology or 'magic'? I'm not sure it has.

I think one of the Facebook Q&As with RT did cover the subject of whether or not the manga is canon, and the answer may have been that it probably is.

At the moment, I'd suggest being absolutely clear in examples that the entry or information comes from the manga. Until we have a better idea of how canon the manga is, and how extensively the manga is going to get troped, there's not much else we can do.

Would Mercury count as one too? Unlike Emerald, who does bad things out of loyalty for Cinder, Mercury seems to be in for his own reasons and doesn't show any semblance of remorse in him. He killed his own father for personal reasons but, later, the way he just smiles with much satisfaction when Ruby starts crying for Penny's death is completely unhuman.

Potentially. I think what edges Cinder into it over Mercury or Emerald is that both Mercury and Emerald have a bit of sympathy to their backstories - Mercury lived under an alcoholic, and almost certainly abusive assassin , and it's implied his prosthetics were not voluntary; Emerald was a street rat with no home and had to steal just to survive - granted this doesn't excuse their crimes, but as pointed out on either the Nightmare Fuel page or the Fridge page, we're left wondering if they could have ended up better people had it not been Cinder that found them and took them in. Compare to Cinder - we know nothing about her past aside from how she met Mercury and Emerald, approached Roman for assistance, attacked Amber, and used her power to press gang the White Fang into her service. All we're given for any kind of motivation is the quote listed for her under Ambition Is Evil - nothing even hints at any kind of sympathetic background.

Basically, point is at this point you could argue that Mercury and Emerald could still end up (attempting) to reform by the end of the story. No, none of their crimes would be forgiven and certainly true redemption is quickly becoming unobtainable (if it's not there already), but there is a difference between crossing the Moral Event Horizon and being a Complete Monster. They may have crossed the horizon, but they're not monsters - yet. And who knows, it may be revealed that there is some kind of altruistic motive to Cinder's plan - which would solidly land her into Well-Intentioned Extremist - but there's not even any hints of that being the case yet.

Part of the reason I hate all the "ambiguous" tropes is that... well, pretty much everything counts if they're weird off like... at all. So given the hilariously broad scope of the trope... I think it technically counts.

Wow, that is hilariously broad then.

There are implied tropes and then there is speculation being passed off as an implied trope. I think this is speculation and should be commented out or removed.

I agree, it's completely spectulation. We have absolutely no idea how the beetle Grimm works yet except that the glove is involved and that severing the cords did something to it.

It's the first thing he talks about. He criticizes that Cinder could've brought him anyone to work with, listing off better alternatives, before outright shutting her down.

Well I took that as more of a why are you trying to recruit me as opposed to him criticizing emerald and mercury.

"You could've gone to anyone for help. You could've made a deal with a gang leader, paid off some Huntsmen that have strayed from their... righteous path... but instead, you choose to seek an audience with me."

Im taking this as. this deal your offering me could be done by gang leaders, huntsmen, ect but your offering me and I don't like working with humans.

Well, there's that too.

That IS what happened. Where did you get the idea that Adam was trying to recruit people Cinder brought to him? Wasn't his "I don't work with humans" and the ending of the flashback clear enough?

@ItsjustAvy: you didn't miss anything. Adam was dismissing Cinder's attempt to recruit him, and trying to figure out why she bothered approaching him in the first place.

That is proof, because Cinder notes specifically that Emerald did this without the clerk batting an eye, only realizing something was wrong when she left; how do you explain that with nothing but an illusion? This is precisely why Cinder wanted her as part of her team in the first place. Also, if you listen near the very beginning before the clerk starts talking about the ring, you can hear a distinctive "whoosh" sound-effect...exactly like the one that occurred before Mercury "attacked" Yang.

Also, Emerald outright states later that with Mercury, "one mind I can handle, but two is pushing it", which means she's obviously has an ability that affects a person's mental perceptions, and she was right there with the two paramedics who checked up with Mercury.

Also, Neo does appear, but that's in context with Cinder and commandeering an ambulance, which is after the whole thing goes down. Cinder's comment on her help applies to getting the ambulance in question, which she did by impersonating a medic.

Not once does Neo appear in the flashback, even as a cameo. Wouldn't it make sense for Cinder to introduce Emerald and Mercury to their comrade? We've also seen Neo is perfectly capable of combat as seen with Yang, so why didn't she join in with the others when they all ganged up on Amber?

Simple, she wasn't there. Granted, we know very little about Neo's backstory as of this point, but that doesn't change the fact we see her NOT ONCE during the flashback.

That makes zero sense. The whoosh sound effect was because there was a flying kick being aimed. That doesn't coincide with a ring being stolen. There's also multiple ways to hoodwink a jeweler. Cinder doesn't explain enough about it. What's more, Cinder was able to see it happen—so either there was no illusion, or she somehow saw past it.

What you're thinking is obvious at first glance. But think about it: whatever illusory semblance is being used also affects a person's hearing, as Yatsuhashi said Coco's name in their match before disappearing. If it is Emerald's Semblance, she should know how to silence that noise—but she doesn't. Amber locates a threat because she heard Emerald's footsteps and weapon draw. And during the battle, she takes out an illusion of Emerald—which is destroyed in a similar manner to the one Yang shattered later.

The icing on the cake though is Emerald's comment. The illusion was done to the entire arena, not just two people. Even when the paramedics came, there were more than two people looking at her. That's more than two minds.

However, if Neo was the one who made the illusion, that could be excused by her allowing Emerald to see the real thing while everone around her doesn't. The illusionist would obviously be able to control who sees and hears what. So if she made the illusion and Emerald was affected, it would explain the side-effect: Neo is only one mind. Emerald's comment would refer to her own mind and Neo's clashing.

Moreover, if Emerald DOES have this power, why does she bother stealing without using it? We do see her do this to Torchwick—you can see her hand move into his back pocket when he fake-hugs them.

This is the episode that reintroduces Neo as a plot element. We are meant to know Neo is the one controlling the illusions, because we know she can do that. And unlike Emerald, who we've never seen do anything definitive, we see her do this right before our eyes—the first time with Yang, the second time with her own appearance, changing her eye colors from green to their standard colors. She's the one behind the paramedics get-up, obviously. Rooster Teeth has already confirmed Neo's power over illusions. Neo is the one crafting them.

The illusion was not done to the entire arena; it was only to Yang. Emerald made Yang see Mercury attack her when in reality he didn't. Cinder obviously sought out Emerald for a reason and the reason was literally spelled out by Cinder; somehow Emerald walked right into a store and took a ring right in front of the clerk, and he literally SMILED at her. There's no mention of a struggle, not even of Emerald buttering him up; she literally walked in and took it and he didn't realize what was wrong until she was outside. Obviously, that lies as a clue of somehow affecting a person's perceptions.

Also, during the battle with Amber, she attacks what looks like Emerald before it suddenly vanishes, revealing the real Emerald some distance away staring at the spot the illusion was before looking at Amber in shock before being hit...and right when the illusion vanishes, that "whoosh" from before happens again.

Also, just because Emerald HAS this power doesn't necessarily mean she needs to use it ALL the time. It's the equivalent of saying you need to use a complicated plan when a simple one suffices.

And once again, you do not address the clear flaw in your thinking: NEO WASN'T THERE DURING THE ATTACK ON AMBER! Not ONCE do we see her in the flashback, and yet we're supposed to believe she created the illusions of the girl and Emerald during the battle? You'd think RT would spare a moment to show Neo being recruited for this mission like with Emerald and Mercury, but that doesn't happen. Even Torchwick got a brief voice-over during one of the blacked-out scenes.

I won't deny that Neo has illusion powers, there's far too much evidence stating she does. However, there IS evidence that Emerald possesses them as well. That "whoosh" I told you about happens four times throughout the episode: Once in the beginning with the clerk, once with Amber just before she sees the child, again when an illusionary Emerald is blasted by Amber, and once right before Mercury attacks Yang. All of these scenes coincide with an illusion being casted, and all of them have one character in particular involved: Emerald.

Also, Emerald's comment as you state its meaning makes no sense: If Neo was truly the one creating the illusions and Emerald was being affected, shouldn't EVERYONE be affected by headaches like Emerald, or at the very least Mercury as well? Yet this doesn't happen, and it's only Emerald. Emerald was being assaulted by the mental fatigue of using her Semblance on more than one person at a time.

Plus, when Cinder refers to all of them doing their parts well as they make their escape with the ambulance, she only refers to Neo as "the driver". You'd think she'd put a little more praise down on her illusionist than just that.

Besides, it is really so unbelievable that there's more than one illusion Semblance user around? We've had three self-multiplication users appear already, so why not?

No matter how many times you state it otherwise, Emerald was the one doing the illusion this time. Neo was only introduced back in ONE scene and that was with the ambulance. If you can show me one point where Neo appears in the flashback, I would give your opinion so much more weight, but she doesn't, and the events shown leave plenty of proof that Emerald has an illusion Semblance.

...though for some reason, I highly doubt you'll believe me until we get definite proof in some latter episode.

We really don't know how Neo's semblance works, we know what she has done not how she did it.

On the other hand this episode suggests emeralds semblance alters the perception of individual people and thats fits with what has happened in the fight with Amber and what happened at the tournament.

One more thing to note is that Amber located Emerald because the sand she was standing on moved according to her own movements. She didn't caught the sounds of her footsteps or weapon draw. The camera specifically shows us Emerald moving a handful of sand when she moved her foot and in the next frame we see Amber looking at the same direction with the same handful of sand doing the exactly same movement shown seconds ago. Only this time Emerald is invisible to Amber's eyes. If Neo was truly doing the illusions then this wouldn't have happened.

As for the how the illusions are destroyed. Neo's illusions break like mirrors. The illusions shown during the fight against Amber disappear like interference.

There's also something important that you need to know Silence: Neo's Semblance have never been stated to be illusions. The exact word they used was Illusionary Semblance. That is a big difference because this means her Semblance is not outright illusions but illusion based. Just like how we have three people with the same basis for their Semblance, Neo's based on a type of ability. This could mean that Neo's ability is just a variation. Makes sense considering Monty implied in the same commentary that he gave Neo her Semblance so he didn't have to animate Roman's escape in Painting the town...

You're basing your entire point on one thing: Neo can create illusions. But you have turned it into Neo is the only one who can create illusions. This is where everything else says otherwise. People can have the same type of Semblances, Neo was not present at any time when the illusions were made in the flashback and she was busy stealing and preparing an ambulance when Yang's fight happened, lots of points that contradict your one point.

Think outside of the box: If we think of Emerald as the one responsible for the illusions then it all makes sense now. The fake Yats, Merc's injury, the illusions during Amber's fight, all of it makes sense right away. All of these are explained and they can move on instead of dragging plot holes that still need to be filled. Why would they sacrifice more screen time for a silly plot twist about a villain that was created to be the lackey of another villain. An a secondary one nonetheless!

I agree this episode made it seem like Emerald's work, not Neo's.

One question though. Given how this was described, is Emerald a Master of Illusion or using some other form of Mind Manipulation. I'm not sure we know enough yet to be absolutely certain, although I can see from the list that Master of Illusion is probably the best fit right now.

We do not know Neo wasn't present. I already made that point. Moreover, she may have been stealing and preparing ambulances while Yang and Mercury for fighting. But not while the illusion was happening—the ambulence was there right after Mercury got injured, as though it was expected. Neo had enough time to get there.

I'm not going to waste time disproving all of these points: this episode did not display Emerald with any kind of illusion semblance. It did however pointedly show that Neo can still alter situations with ease.

And yes, Neo was outright stated to be making illusions—the creators confirmed that her dropping in front of Yang's shot to save Roman was one, and thus that she was already getting Roman out of there when "she" arrived.

And yes. I'm going to doubt you until we get something definite. With Neo, we've gotten definite. With Emerald, we've gotten unclear, undeveloped, and possible. Leave it as is until she's cemented. Ask on Twitter if you like and if I'm wrong, I'll eat my words. But for now, leave it.

Your are the one making the case that Neo was behind the illusion's you have to disprove the points we are raising this is a discussion.

It's the other way around. The show has given us more information on Emerald than Neo.

ItsjustAvy is right. Everyone here is saying the episode seems to be placing Emerald in the role with there being no sign of Neo until she played getaway driver right at the end. You're the one who has to build a case for why your interpretation should trump the consensus.

The reason why it's commented out is because, as written, it's zero context.

At least lets rewrite the entry so that it is free of that speculation because assuming that she is not the Big Bad is speculation in itself, given that there is no evidence that there is someone behind her. Let's do this version with what we do know:

• Big Bad: She's driving the known villains and their actions, instigating Roman Torchwick's Dust heists while also infiltrating Beacon Academy. She's referred to as a Queen in the chess sense, having multiple pawns under her thumb. It gets to the point where she has control over the tournament match-ups.

In terms of Chess Motifs, calling someone Queen very emphatically indicates someone isn't a Big Bad. The Queen's the most powerful, but still not the most important.

But if she's driving all the known villains and their actions, then as far as we know she's the Big Bad so the entry can go up for now.

@Satoshi Bakura: My post above suggested a rewrite (at the top of my post) to remove speculation, not a removal of the trope.

Regarding the comment "she's referred to as a Queen in the chess sense", that is speculation; Qrow has stated she's not a pawn, but he has not stated she is the Queen. Since the show has neither confirmed nor denied Cinder is the Queen, fans are deciding for themselves whether they think she is or isn't. We don't yet know which theories are correct.

I've taken my original suggested rewrite and slightly rewritten it again: it lists what the show has told us Cinder is involved in, and doesn't speculate about any of it.

Big Bad: Cinder is driving the known villains and their activities, such as giving Roman the orders for his Dust heists and instructing Mercury and Emerald to kill Tukson. She is leading the infiltration of Beacon; she hacked into the CCT computers, has secret computer access ports, and can control the tournament match-ups. Adam told her that he would make sure the White Fang continue to work with her, despite faunus deaths during the Volume 2 finale. Qrow states the Beacon infiltrator is not the Queen's pawn and is the person responsible for the mysterious condition of someone called Autumn.

That one works too. But weren't you the one who added "Cinder is Queen to the Pawns" to the entry in the first place?

Not that I'm aware of; I'd be more likely to have removed it (for the reasons already listed). If my name is on the history page as having added it, it would be pure accident, as I've never supported it being on the page until the show confirms it.

If you're okay with that wording, I'll add it to the page - although it would be better with more input than just us, so I'll give it a couple of days just to see if anyone else chimes in. Is that okay with you?

Okay, I think I've given it a fair few days. I've put the trope back onto the page.

The idea of them being a "manifestation of enmity" or any sort of emotion given physical form makes me believe that they're certainly outside the realm of human understanding. Then the fact that what they're actually made of is completely unknown and they evaporate upon death. In other words, they make absolutely no sense by any definition of "life" that we currently have.

The only ones who treat the Grimm as a whole as understandable are students who are explicitly shown to be a bit arrogant and wind up underestimating them. Even if some of them are complete Mooks, they have as a whole basically forced humanity to turtle up.

I agree this doesn't quite apply, though Neo's height is significant enough we really should note it somewhere. Pint-Sized Powerhouse, perhaps? Cute Bruiser? Mini Mook?

Pint-Sized Powerhouse fits.

Pint-Sized Powerhouse: By RWBY's height chart◊, Neopolitan is the shortest character in the series, standing around 4' 10", including her heeled boots. To further emphasize this, Yang, who is around 5' 8", is a full head taller than Neo when they get into a staredown right before their fight in "No Brakes". And yet Neo ends up effortlessly curbstomping her.

Agree with Pint-Sized Powerhouse.

Normally I wouldn't think it applies to a woman that's 4'10" (even in heels) but this show seems to have made humans taller on average than in real life. As a result, being 4'10" stands out in a much more unusual way compared to shows that deal with real life heights.

Ask Monty, not the fans.

Also, "similarity" is not enough to qualify something as Expy. "Pretty much identical" is.

Until then it can fall into Counterpart Comparison in ymmv.

Maybe if she has evil stepmother and sisters, and/or having a prince who searched for her, I'll be convinced.

Until then it can fall into Counterpart Comparison in ymmv.

...her name was originally going to be Cinderella. That alone should be all the proof anyone needs. The fact that her shoes were clearly glass (don't know about appearance, but definitely in sound) in her first volume 2 scene is just more.

I know expy gets overused a lot, but this is a series that loves fairy-tale motifs, as well as playing with those motifs. I really don't know how they could make it more obvious.

That strikes me as barely enough for Expy. It's one of these "degree" things that make that trope a nightmare to maintain.

It's pretty clear that the creator had Cinderella in mind when he made her, even if it evolved away from that. I mean, we've got Li Ren as Mulan when pretty much the only direct thing between them is they're both Chinese-ish.

Anyway, Fairytale Motif definitely counts. Expy's a bit much, though.

@Last Nobody. Her shoes were not clear/glass in her Volume 1 appearance. When I removed the example citing that as my reason, I did double-check the episode before removing the example. I re-watched the episode before making this post as well (just in case I was wrong). In Volume 2, if you watch her feet walking, every time her right foot lands or lifts, the anklet moves, and it often starts lifting as the left foot is landing. Whether it's the anklet or the shoes making the tinkle is open to interpretation.

I really do think she has glass shoes, by the way (maybe even Dust crystal shoes), but the example has always come across as personal interpretation. If there's confirmation out there, that would be great for clearing up the Fairytale Motif (it's been used on Odd Name Out for Ozpin's name as well). I wouldn't go for Expy though.

I shouldn't have brought up expy. I wasn't saying she is one; agreed, that's too much. It's just the argument reminded me of the ones surrounding that.

If you dropped Cinder into another random work, whether she counts for Cinderella's Fairytale Motif would be a little arguable—though the fact that she was originally going to be named "Cinder Ella" would still tip it over for me. But this is not some random work. This is a work where every single character contains allusions to at least one fairytale (albeit with a rather broad definition of "fairytale"). Cinder alludes to some story; the only question is which one. And in that context, it's obviously Cinderella.

I don't disagree she's based on Cinderella, especially as there are some tales where Cinderella is the villain, or ended up one by virtue of passing through Well-Intentioned Extremist. My objection in the past has rested in the way it's been written - including the current write-up, which is practically zero context (and returns to the glass slipper basis, which at the moment is personal interpretation even if I agree with the interpretation).

How about something like this? Then we can add more as we learn it.

• Fairytale Motif: Based on Cinderella, Cinder's name was originally drafted as "Cinder Ella" before being finalised as "Cinder Fall". Whenever she walks, her footsteps are accompanied by the sound of tinkling glass as an allusion to Cinderella's glass slippers.

That seems like a reasonable way to show the example (also, her shoes are kinda transparent, as seen in this screenshot◊; that's what I was going off of)

I think I must be blind, I can't see any transparency at all. :P

You can see the skin of her foot through the shoe, but it's darkened because it's a sort of brown glass. The heel is thick enough that it's not transparent.

And agreed on the new write up.

It looks like a solid brown shoe to me so I'll have to take your word for it.

While I was crying my eyes out because my write up stunk I thought of another allusion to Cinderella.

Cinders main ability is Playing with Fire which sounds like a nod to where Cinderella got the Cinder in her name. A cruel nickname she was given cause she was always tasked to clean the fire places.

Since this is to reliant on Fridge Logic there is no point adding it, but something to think about later if someone should change the entry again.

Yeah, I've thought of that, too, but it's still interpretation at the moment. The scene where she's using a needle maybe another allusion, since Cinderella had to sew the dresses for her step-sisters to attend the ball. Again, that's interpretation.

At the very least it counts as Meaningful Name, since Cinder is a fire user and fire turns things into cinders.