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Suggestion: The Bean-Counter. This would describe a fan obsessed with, for instance, television ratings and movie box office returns, i.e. things that nobody but boardroom suits and production company shareholders should be worrying about. They are the sort of people who insist on referring to pieces of art as "properties", who will refer to "lack of franchise potential" as though that is a legitimate criticism of a movie, care more about how many copies a new book sells than whether they like the story or the plot, generally behave as though financial success is a measure of quality and will get into completely earnest arguments about why Giant Corrupt Corporation X should own Amazing-Man instead of Giant Corrupt Corporation Y.
Here's a suggestion for a type of fan dumb: A Sueaphobic, basically a person who gets defensive about any character who even slightly resembles a Mary Sue. Part of the reason it's become a meaningless title
Something similar to this is mentioned on Hate Dumb under The Hate Monger ("They also use the "Mary Sue" label as a weapon and declare the character they do not like a Mary Sue. It does not matter if the character really is a Mary Sue; nor does it matter if the hate monger has any idea what a Mary Sue is supposed to be — these people have devalued the term").
I read Warmonger and immediately thought Dota 2 and League of Legends, they're friendly, their fans hate each other.
Should we add an exclusive form of Fan Dumb called "The Sub Purist" for foreign shows (especially anime)? Seriously, I looked at the Too Long; Didn't Dub page and I am cringing at the lengths that Dragon Ball fans can be such weeaboos, especially when they start calling Dragon Ball "Doragon Booru".
Also, to go with the above, we need "The Dub Purist", who simply calls someone a weeaboo for watching subbed anime even if they're not a true weeaboo.
So are aggressive Gamer Gaters the Fan Dumb of gaming? I'm not trying to offend anyone, just genuinely curious. Reading this entry just made me think of GG straight away, especially when I reached the ad hominem and race/sex/sexuality bit.
Maybe, but this site is not the place to discuss GG stuff.
Already started zapping Fan Dumb & Hate Dumb entries from YMMV pages. If anyone wants to help the clean-up, please do. The sooner we finish this, the better.
We are zapping every mention, even in potholes, right?
Now that the page is flame bait per Fast Eddie's decision, a wick removal effort will be going underway. The same goes for Hate Dumb. All examples that are not in-universe will be removed.
I've tried searching for examples and the discussion but nothing's come up on Google or the site proper. Could we please have a link? I promise I tried.
Go to Ask The Tropers and search for Character Derailment.
Another suggestion for a type of fan you meet everywhere you go: the Ignorant Interpretator. Somewhat similar to Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory: A fan who doesn't understand or completely misinterprets the intent of the creator, even if the creator has given clearance about his message or intentions in several interviews. This fan's main problem is usually that he doesn't bother to look stuff up or isn't aware of the context of the work, nor the views of the author. Or, when he IS aware, he just ignores everything that contrasts with his viewpoint. Examples:
Even if it's a YMMV example, and even if it's more or less true, should this trope even exist?
It seems rather... rude. :p
Yeah. That is why we keep it exampleless.
"Taking these fans too seriously is usually a mistake. Although they tend to be louder than the rest of the fanbase combined, they are usually a decided minority in almost every fandom (though they often claim to be a majority)."
Yes. As a brony and someone that deals with several other fandoms in small doses I can verify that these people tend to be just as disliked within the fandom as out.
Identifying people as this 'trope' is already controversial... A fanbase dominated by them would probably allege the opposite.
I am wondering if there is the type of the Mad Teacher.
''A Mad Teacher would be a more benevolent, but still stern mixture of the Mad Scholar, The Highbrow and the Old Timer who attempts to guide new members within a community.
He/She but gets angry, if said new members theorise about things, which have already been resolved and come to the wrong conclusion with said theory. His/Her opinium would be, that newbies should do research first before they post something without any thought in the fandom, because it has been done successfully in the past.
What the Mad Teacher wants, is that the new members should utilise the knowledge accumulated in the years by the community for completely new theories, which are not redunant and don't conflict with the canon. Bonus points, if there is even evidence for their theories.
What makes the Mad Teacher sad, is when more and more newbies don't even care about the community's and his/her work.''
Would be this a valid type of a Fan Dumb?
Shouldn't the Hipster Fan be replaced by The Sheep? The behavior doesn't sound hipster-esque to me at all but more sheep-like.
This and Hate Dumb need to be banned from use on YMMV pages for works. They're always, ALWAYS just used to strawman and insult parts of the fandom/hatedom that disagrees with you.
Yeah, that seems like a fair assessment. Divisions within fanbases are bad enough without having this trope to facilitate every edit war that flares up on YMMV.
Besides, unless it's an ARRPG or something meta to a certain degree, I don't see what kind of insight observing fan behaviours really has. On YMMV anyway.
Well, where else would you put them? Sounds like censoring or trying to pretend certain bad aspects about a fandom's fans don't ever exist there.
It's important to know WHY the issues in the fandom happened in the first place.
No, it's not pretending that bad aspects of a fanbase doesn't exist, it's to limit pointless whininess. If you can't describe a group of people without Fan Dumb or Hate Dumb, maybe you should reconsider your edit.
There's also a few cases where people are using them to complain about fans they don't like - particularly on anime and manga pages, where it's usually just a cultural issue about something minor which hasn't gone through cultural translation.
I might only be saying this because I'm a Theocrat myself, but it seems to me every fan should be either a Theocrat or an Anarchist. I mean, either you accept Word of God or you don't. Why be half-assed about it?
That's like being a Christian and only believe in half of the Bible.
That you for your in-depth explanation, I now see the error of my ways.
Being screechy about explicitly AU fanfiction or events were canon is deliberately ambiguous is just as irritating as morons who write wildly out of character and whine about how the author didn't suck up to their expectations.
The point is that with works of FICTION, when something exists in a work of fiction that requires an explanation (e.g. a Plot Hole, a Deus ex Machina or a Did Not Do The Research), you can take the WOG explanation but it doesn't mean it's going to add up or make dramatic sense, and if a fan comes up with something better, why not accept that? But if future stories expand upon this thing, then they'll probably go with a WOG explanation, unless a fan explanation gains a LOT of traction.
I originally created this in YKTTW. However upon further reading into this trope I feel it fits more here as a subtrope.
This is a COPY & PASTE of the YKKTW.
Its working title is Flaws Dissonance.
Say the character is poorly written, or there is a noticeable plot hole in the story. Most Fans feel the same about how annoying said flaw is and universally deride it.
Most fans however still find things they like and enjoy in the work and still enjoy it even with its flaws.
Wait a minute though, that poorly written character has shown up, or has been mentioned in the story, or that plot hole has been ignored or maybe fixed with a Retcon.
Cue the angry mob attacking the work for the thousandth time.
This happens enough times it can make the flaw in the work easy to overlook in light of how annoying the complainers are.
Note: This only applies when another fan of the work is criticizing it, this does not apply to those, who dislike the work in general, point out its flaws, such as a critic or someone outside its intended audience.
I'd like to make an addition to the "unpleasable fan". Name suggestion, "The Fake Prophet".
A fan who comes up with a bunch of theories, some more or less probable, others downright insane. When even one of them turns out to be true, they bemoan the creators' lack of creativity and the series' predictability, claiming that they saw it coming miles away. In the rare case that none of the predictions come true, they call Ass Pull or similar, completely refusing to accept evidence to the contrary. Bonus points if those theories weren't even their own but just random Wild Mass Guessing by other fans.
If you can cite this actually happening in a fandom, then I think it's legit.
Regarding the abridged descriptions of fans - I appreciate them being there, and they are definitely easier to understand than the very long paragraphs, but I think they could still be more approachable.
Not everyone knows to click on hottips, so how about this - how about having the abridged version be shown right after the "main" description of the type of fan, but in a different color so that it catches the eye, and without requiring clicking on a hottip?
Another possible alternative; split them into two lists separated by folders — one for the abridged descriptions, one for the lengthier ones.
That way, someone who just wants to read a quick-capsule summary doesn't have to read through the lengthy one to access them, while still keeping the lengthy descriptions for those who want a bit more depth and detail.
I'm unsure about the meaning of "Hipster Fan". At first I just assumed it was about fans who jump ship when something becomes popular, and indeed, it makes reference to It's Popular, Now It Sucks!. However, the rest of the section seems to be about things that are popular for being well-reviewed. I thought "Hipsters", at least memetically, were more known for liking things for their obscurity, not for their popularity or for being well-reviewed. Does this maybe need a different name?
I wonder if it would be possible to add a new category of Fan Dumb.
Sort of the opposite of the Mad Matchmaker, the fans who are convinced that there is no romantic potential in a series, that saying two characters could get together is an insult to the series, and if romantic subplots start to develop, will cry foul and claim that the series is catering to the shippers and/or the series is going downhill. Maybe they had a bad run in with crazy shippers that scarred them, maybe they have a personal reason for hating the word 'love', or maybe they just don't think it goes with the story. But for whatever reason, these people just can't stand the idea of romance developing, no matter how logical or illogical the situation.
In other words, these are the people who apply No Hugs, No Kisses to an extreme.
This doesn't include those who dislike romance in a story - just those who take it upon themselves to crusade against the idea. It's one thing to protest a pairing that popped up three episodes ago involving a new character that is suddenly contemplating marriage with a long running series character; it's another to insult the creator for fleshing out a pairing that's had subtext since the beginning. Or to protest the very existence of fans who enjoy romantic pairings.
We seem to have a lot of groups for fans who believe the series should go a certain way or die - I think we should add a few more classifications for fans who want the story to stay in place and never change.
That's on Hate Dumb.
People might not associate romance plots with every creative work they like. Not all works are well-placed to attempt romance, either. So there's no real need to call this a negative aspect of fans, especially if they've possible already evaluated the 'pairings' and found them unsuitable. If you claim that they can have logical reasons, perhaps it's not a variant of Fan Dumb?
I was in a Fan Dumb. I started a one man war against anyone who went out of there way to bash the show Loonatics Unleashed. I regret it now but I just really despise the general crappy treatment this show gets and part of me would be happy to continue the fight.
I have, in various ways and at various times, been Fan Dumb a whole lot. At least, by the standards of the page. I have a whole website about taking what other people made and imagining it *with effort and/or taste*. Then we create fan works based off of that. Now, because of my perspective on the media arts, I may not have the right to say something like this, but shouldn't it be stated in the page that a lot of Fan Dumb characteristics can be YMMV? Because by the way the page handles things, it seems that there's no such thing as error, laziness, or greed in a given work, and therefore, if you want improvement or if you even recreate the original work with a different perspective and improvements in particular areas, and ESPECIALLY if you voice your opinions, then you're automatically Fan Dumb.
There's no such thing as a perfect work, and MOST works are less than ideal. So Fan Dumb depends on the context and the attitude of the person, and Fan Dumb can, at times, be YMMV. This page seems to have an intimidating attitude that all kinds of fans who don't just "smoke a bowl and accept it" are Fan Dumb, and by implied peer pressure it discourages creative and honest alternate opinions and perspectives altogether. That's just not right...
I think we've all been Fan Dumb at some point. The trick is to remember that other fans may not understand your reasons for believing in something. Not to say that your website really is Fan Dumb, considering I've never seen it (sounds interesting, actually), but some people may view it that way. Just like some people see romantically pairing up two people as the bane of creation, while some shippers feel that not seeing the subtext makes you blind.
The specific types of Fan Dub are very subjective, it's true, but the general idea of Fan Dumb - that there are people who take it too far - is not. There are those who get too invested in their beliefs. You can tell who it is when the insults start flying. And yes, not every shipper is a Mad Matchmaker, and not every critic is a Perfectionist, but sometimes people are. That's why this page exists. It's not for the critics, and not for the shippers.
It's for, in a word, the crazies.
"That's why this page exists. It's not for the critics, and not for the shippers.
It's for, in a word, the crazies."
Could have fooled me with some of the potholes.
Would the addition of a Troper tales page be welcome? It often seems that fandom can best be understood though individual stories. Or would this just lead to Flame Bait?
Troper Tales is now in a wiki outside of TVT.
You might want to check http://tropertales.wikkii.com.
I hate to admit it, but I think I'm a bit of a Mad Bride here. I haven't seen a single episode of Fullmetal Alchemist or Soul Eater since Envy and Crona died, and one of them technically didn't really die off. Hope I can avoid this and force myself to watch Death Note after L's death. God I miss him!
This isn't troper tales, no-one cares.
I don't care that you don't care...but seriously, I'm not falling into this trope, am I?
A minor name-change suggestion, but I'm wary of just editing it into a core page like this: "King (or Queen) Customer" could be simplified as "Royal Customer".
This trope has no right to exist, since it is only used as a pothole to insult people who dare to think differently from the mindless TV Tropes hivemind.
I guess that what I'm trying to say, is that it's really frustrating how many people link descriptions of people they don't agree with to this trope,. Sorry that I was so harsh.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with having an opinion.
This trope is about people who are disrespectful and ignorant when expressing it.
I still think that this page needs to be destroyed so that no one can use it as an insulting pothole.
If so, the same can be said about the Hate Dumb page, because it's abused in the same way.
The rule on the page now says that you can't use it as a pothole on a main page. But it's pointless to deny that it does, in fact, exist among a Vocal Minority, which is why we need the term.
Yeah, okay. So the nutjobs who become so obsessed with idols and V As that they threaten to kill them deserve our courtesy, right? Sorry, but beyond the controversial labels ascribed to some, "Fan Dumb" is a very real phenomenon.
I made a new topic about this at what is currently the bottom of the page. I don't think this page should be destroyed, but I definitely think it needs to make clear that not all people who want to see arts be of better quality and taste are Fan Dumb. Because that's what this page seems to be implying.
Really? I think the page makes it quite clear that it's just talking about people who go way off the deep-end with their fandom. The write-up repeatedly states that it's not the opinion, it's the way it's being expressed. I don't recall seeing anything about quality or value being mentioned there.
I don't know if somebody noticed this, but the second post of this thread in the QueenZone forum shows examples of most of the types regarding the Queen fanbase:
I'm putting this here because I don't think it needs to be noted on the main pages, for a reason.
I just read through the types list and I couldn't find one type that I think belongs here. Of course, I should get a second opinion, so here's my short explanation:
This type of fan is one who claims that Super Zombie Robot Wars III is the best in the series despite never having actually played SZRW 3. Often, after SZRW 9 is declared by the rest of the fandom to be the best, this fan will continue to claim that SZRW 3 is far better than SZRW 9. He will occasionally use examples to show why he believes this, but since he has never played SZRW 3, these will invariably be of the It Was His Sled variety. This fan often rants about how They Changed It, Now It Sucks!.
Real-life examples of this would be Final Fantasy fans with FF 7 or Pokemon fans with Gen1 and/or Gen2 games. Not to say that all FF 7 or early Pokemon fans haven't played the games, of course.
I don't know if there's a name for this in any circles yet, but a distinct variety of fandom that I've found particularly obnoxious for a long time is something I like to call a "Soap Opera Fan in Denial" or, more simply, a "Matchmaker". This is the kind of person who gets antsy about waiting to see when Character A and Character B are finally going to kiss, or hook up, or whatever in spite of how unimportant such a theme is to the series in question. These are people who won't take "It's not a soap opera" for an answer; they get personally offended that Leela and Fry aren't constantly making out and discussing their feelings, they give Resident Evil 5 only a 7 out of 10 strictly because "the potential for drama in the Chris/Sheva/Jill triangle was wasted", and they write lengthy, furious rants about how Harry Potter's first kiss was with Cho. Is the driving force of your TV show a bungling loser who can't get a girlfriend? They DEMAND to see this guy get a steady, boring relationship. Does your book star a male/female team who neither display any romantic interest in each other nor give any reason to believe they would even be a compatible couple? They will send you sternly-worded mail asking "WHEN are they going to admit that they love each other?" Maybe they're voyeurs, maybe they just see themselves in the loser characters too much, maybe they simply share Marge Simpson's knee-jerk "Everyone must be paired up" philosophy; one way or another there is no situation where romance is too frivolous, inappropriate, or even downright creepy for them. And they must be stopped.
This is similar to the kind of person who demands answers to the questions that the author refuses to answer (usually because they are stupid questions): "How does Strong Bad type with boxing gloves on?" "Is Hobbes truly alive, or just a figment of Calvin's imagination?" Is there anything like this anywhere on the site? Because I think it warrents some attention.
That is called Shipping, and is not a form of Fan Dumb.
It might not be by definition, but it sure as shit can be. If your biggest concern in a game about bioweapon monsters eating Africa and trying to take over the world is that the non-existant love triangle isn't explored, then yes, that's kinda dumb.
It's just as dumb of complaining that Days Of Our Lives doesn't contain enough kung fu.
Shipping in and of itself isn't Fan Dumb- it's what the fan does with it that makes it Fan Dumb or not.
I agree that shipping isn't Fan Dumb in itself. It is, however, very popular with Fan Dumb people.
Is there a type of fan dumb to describe fans who take tropes like Animation Age Ghetto or What Do You Mean, It's for Kids? a little too far? They'd be the sort that retroactively apply gloomy elements to the children's entertainment they enjoyed in their youth (or even ignore tropes like Parental Bonus or Periphery Demographic and claim that children's media they enjoy are actually not even for kids in the first place) because they're obsessed with the objects of their fandom being taken seriously, or the type that believes "sex and gore" = "mature".
Where could that kind of mentality go?
I've never actually met one of these, but I myself tend to follow the belief that children's shows should put enough effort, taste, and intelligence to be enjoyed shamelessly by adults. It's not rare for large family movie producers to do this, but I do wish it were popular enough for people to stop thinking that all child-friendly shows are immature.
On the latter note you spoke about, usually the more blood and gore it has, the more "wannabe mature" it is. It's immaturity trying desperately to be mature but failing at it in an immature way. Usually it's teenagers who do this.
Oh and even though i'm not a mod, i'd recommend a Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement when it comes to this. I see one too many pages where Fan Dumb exists because "They just are" and heated debates on the matter, and unlike Hate Dumb, little is actually being done about it. If this page isn't going to get a Flame War or YMMW banner, at least give out a good reason to why the fans are "Fan Dumb."
Does anyone think that Fan Dumb needs a Flamebait, Fanspeak or YMMW banner much like Hate Dumb?
...and there's our banner. Thanks mods and admins...or whoever has the ability to put up these banners.
Is it me, or many types of Fan Dumb are Not So Different? The Unpleasable Fan and the Vocal Loyalist, for example.
I'm confused about the "Easily Impressed" breed.
The "Malignant" form makes perfect sense, but the "begin" form seems to be just someone who enjoys stuff without worrying about other people's opinions, AKA not fandumb.
Agreed; I've taken the liberty of editing accordingly.
A question as to where this would go:
There are several subsets of Fan Dumb, however, I've seen one that seems almost exclusive to video games, but can't seem to figure out where it would go.
I've nicknamed it "Fandom Denial," for the moment, where an absolutely obsessive fan of a video game or game franchise virulently denies being a gamer, claiming it's too "nerdy," and that they are only there for the background story and the philosophy (so related a bit to the Toxic Missionary subset).
A very good example is The Elder Scrolls, with it's oodles of background lore. There was one particularly infamous member of the fandom who seemed at first to be a Toxic Visionary, however when the discussion drifted to how the gameplay mechanics may cause some of the lore "issues," he said something to the effect of "We aren't talking about games. Games are for a special class of nerds who should all be neutered." Leaving aside, for the moment, the irony of someone willing to flame and threaten people over differences in opinion over a fantasy world calling someone else too nerdy, The Elder Scrolls is a game franchise.
The related fandom/hatedom tropes seem so far to be:
Public Medium Ignorance (Games as Art debate)
Creator Worship/Death of the Author (Worshipped Michael Kirkbride, all other writers completely ignored).
So, is there space for this in Fan Dumb, does it deserve its own page, what? I'm not sure where to put this, if it goes anywhere at all.
That would be, hm, a theoretical trope by the name of Black Klan Member, a relative of Pretend Prejudice where a person is extremely intolerant and prejudicial of their own identity, and will even try to deny it, even though it's obvious that's what they are.
That would probably have to be proposed on YKTTW to be a real trope. It doesn't really sound like a fandom trope the way you describe it, but more like a kind of trope that can turn into Fan Dumb when used in the right way.
If something is 'multi-faceted,' then not everyone is going to like all of it. I'm sure some games are interesting for their world-building or scenery, however the gameplay might seem flawed. Games like Deadly Premonition have some fans who dislike the combat sections. If you mean that people are 'repressing' their own passion, then there are probably other 'tropes' for that already. That needn't be the case, however.
About the quote by Grognor on the "quotes" page.
The rest of his post reads: "Screw you guys. Hard games are what real men play, and true Final Fantasy fans know that no game in that series has has any redeeming qualities whatsoever since the sixth game."
Is this sarcasm?
Whether this guy was serious or not, this statement is a joke.
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