During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I thought sharks were my friends.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Uncertainty.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Baron K'thstraam.
The Baron.
Trochin, Bile, Annis and K'thstraam
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Nix
Baron, K, keeping Bile, and Anus... I mean Annis
One more, kind of a two in one.
What's the work?
A DND standalone setting. Ghostwalk was written at the start of DND's third edition. Ghostwalk is set in a city known as 'Manifest.' To quote the Wiki page:
So...we've got a city where death itself can be conquered. Cool, huh? Well, a few bad guys in Manifest's history had a thing or two to say about that... enter Durgerth and Xaphan.
who are Durgerth and Xaphan?
Durgerth the Conqueror was a barbarian warlord from the south. Sweeping over the kingdoms and baronies around Manifest, Durgerth massacred everything in the path of his armies, aiming for Manifest for one reason: to conquer death itself. Now, Durgerth believed the grand portla held there could be a pathway to the patron god Aluvan and if he could get ahold of Manifest, he could achieve eternal life. This belief was...shall we say, somewhat misguided as that isn't the way Manifest works.
Occupying Manifest, he tried to subject Aluvan to his will and...well, failed to do so. Incensed, Durgerth took his wrath out upon the city itself. ...let me quote the book:
Durgerth left it all burning behind him, and his armies were then confronted by another alliance, the barbarian hordes routed...as a result? Durgerth's dreams of conquest died and he was wiped out with his armies in a final defeat.
Next...is Xaphan. And the Liche War...so we have the nation of Inuitea. There was a small cult to a seemingly insignificant deity known as Neistra'demos, Lord of the Upturned Grave...turns out? This is actually a guise of the wicked god of undeath, Orcus, and so came his prophet, the lich Xaphan. Xaphan raised an undead army and massacred all on Inuitea before raising them as undead slaves. Xaphan took his army and brought them down to the coast, to sweep over the peninsula and slaughter his way to Manifest, intending on raising all of what he could in order to convert them as his undead servants.
This led to the Liche War as Xaphan attempted to wipe out all mortal life. Countless innocents fell in battle with Xaphans forces, raised to join his armies as the heroes and good guys, representing the good gods struck back. Even in the midst of horrific battle, the good guys raised an army of ghosts to fight Xaphan's forces. The seven generals of the alliance managed to corner Xaphan and in a final battle, Xaphan was killed with his vampire lieutenants pulling back with his remaining forces, remaining a new kingdom of undeath 'Xaphan' after their undead sovereign.
Heinousness?
Ghostwalk is its own thing completely, a singular setting like Ptolus and hoo boy, these two are bad. Mass murder, necromancy...the sheer amount of atrocity on display speaks for itself.Durgerth has mass slaughter and Xaphan is just as bad, in a lengthy history. There's like one other villain from the adventure paths in Ghostwalk but that's about it...beyond this, these two blow everyone else out of the water.
Mitigating Qualities?
Now, there's not much to them here. Things are quickly described and not lingered on much as a history, but we get more than enough into them for an RPG setting. Durgerth is a conqueror who believes he can conquer the gods and never die, and is furious when he realizes this isn't true. Xaphan is a sadistic fanatic of Orcus, who's up to his old tricks (you can guess how much the god of sadistic undeath wants Manifest gone)...but no redeeming qualities are ascribed them. Not even a little here. Liches have full agency and Durgerth is human. We're good.
Conclusion?
Durgerth and Xaphan both make it for a unique setting.
Yes to Dugerth and Xaphan.
Edited by falcontalons on Apr 23rd 2020 at 6:00:47 AM
to Durgerth and Xaphan.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Durgerth and Xaphan.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Unknown Unknown
Long time, no see, huh, gang?
This wouldn't be the first time I took a hiatus and returned, but this one in particular was the longest. To keep a long story short, had a lot of undue stress placed on me and I had to personally re-evaluated myself. Thankfully, I'm in a much better place than I was the last time ya'll heard from me—mentally, socially, and physically. You guys might have caught me in other threads, but those are less intensive than the clean-up threads.
Anyway, uh, first order of business? Remember a certain fanfic version of Medusa Gorgon that marked my debut here? Cut her. I'm the author, simple as that. Sheer arrogance and selfishness on my part to let that slide as long as I did. I can only say "sorry" and promise never to do that again. You want her to stay or go back up? You know what to do. Although, I must advise it's an outdated work currently in the process of being rewritten. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.
Second? Well, I won't say I'll be as active. I'm taking things far more easy than before, largely because I'm trying to be more constructive in my own hobbies and career. It's work keeping up with this thread, much less happening upon works that have a CM. But, you'll still see my name, and I hope to contribute to discussion. For the record, I've already caught up on the new rules (ex. the "blanket vote post," etc.). All that said, if a troper here has a work of theirs they'd like read and evaluated? I could help. Just shoot a PM, but mind, I do reserve the right to say yes and no.
Third order? Wouldn't want to leave a bad taste ending this post on that note. How 'bout an effortpost?
What is the work?
Hey, did some of ya'll remember a year ago when I EP'd Oulardt? Well, we're back to Kiba no Tabishounin – The Arms Peddler! Written by Kyoichi Nanatsuk, the manga follows Souna Yuki, a young boy orphaned by thugs, and Garami, the titular Arms Peddler, traversing a world After the End full of bandits, merchants, survivors, demons, and royalty.
Who is the candidate? What has he/she done?
Leading an infamous gang of bandits, a man named Hydra seeks to make his name synonymous with infamy. Taking Rape, Pillage, and Burn to the extreme, Hydra attacks whatever village or caravan strikes his fancy, brutalizing everyone involved but leaving a single witness alive. What does he do to this sole survivor instead? Has his men pin the unfortunate soul down and drive a burning "S" into a body part of his choice, marking them with his symbol. His modus operandi works well enough that people from the city to Balzaar to the merchant capital of Hemden know of his gruesome methods.
Souna is one such victim, and he joined with Garami so he could get stronger to get revenge on Hydra.
A long while passes since that downer of a beginning, but the next time we see Hydra is in the aforementioned Hemden. Hydra is now the leader of a mercenary gang who carry out the dirty works of their clients, and whispers have it that the reason he's around these parts is to carry out such a mission. Souna tries to ambush him in a fit of rage, but Hydra—who eventually remembers the boy—easily beats him. Garami; Airi L. Caradiam, the lost princess of Caradia; and the timely arrival of special forces convince Hydra to step back and move on, but he tells one of his men to keep an eye on Souna's group, recognizing the princess and her worth.
When Souna is kidnapped by a supernatural creature called a Lekuidori, in reality the council president Helmut Blair turned demon by the "Book of Keys," the Helmut's daughter Ronel tells him of their predicament. What drove her "Lord Father" over the edge to accept the Book of Keys was Hydra's gang showing up, slaughtering the people of their mission, and naturally marking her with his S. Basically, Ronel's father had enemies, notably Mayor Browman, over the political state of Hemden. The mayor hired Hydra's gang to shift the pendulum their way. Hydra and his troupe are seen chilling in Mayor Browman's study, and he collects his money for a job. On the way out, Hydra promises one of his men, as opposed to telling the mayor about Princess Airi, he'll wait for the highest bidder for the princess before going after her and Souna's gang.
Souna and Ronel escape the latter's mansion and meet up with Garami, who points her gun at Ronel... Yeah, plot twist. Turns out Ronell accepted the power of the Book of Keys, not her dad. She couldn't accept the reality of her father, her family, being dead. Her monster form was both the manifestation of her father's wish for revenge as well as her own hatred. Seeing Hydra again made her remember her family's massacre, and she goes berserk.
Hydra hightails it out of there, deliberately picking the route with the most people so that they are kept in the crossfire of the rampaging Lekuidori to facilitate his escape. It doesn't really work; he gets battered and bruised trying to run away, losing a lot of his men in the process.
Annnnnd that's the last we see him of. The Arms Peddler has been hiatus since 2016, so who knows when we'll get more information. We'll cross that bridge whenever it shows up in the future. For now, Hydra has Karma Houdini Warranty. Sorry, ACW.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming or Mitigating Factors?
None at all.
Heinousness?
Clears. Different set of crimes from the human trafficker Oulardt too. He heads commits gruesome murder and torture to spread his reputation across the world. Also, it's strongly implied he lets his men rape female victims, judging from what we're shown of Souna's (dead) mom and Ronel, who survived her particular massacre. There's enough of a pattern, he's got a sizable body count, uses a horrible method, and has that personal touch by being Souna's target.
Conclusion?
Keeeeep.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Durgerth, Xaphan and Hydra
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Apr 23rd 2020 at 6:58:37 AM
Happy yes to Hydra. Still planning on doing Great priest Im, Erazor? I was tihnking of looking into that with your absence.
The Unknown Unknown
Yeah, I plan to.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
The Draftsman of Doom
Ghostwalk duo and Hydra.
I just rewatched a classic film, and I couldn't find any discussion on its villain.
What is the work?
Taxi Driver is a 1976 film starring Robert De Niro, Jodie Foster, and Harvey Keitel.
Travis Bickle is a former marine turned taxi driver who loathes the decrepit state of affairs of New York City, flirting with the idea of vigilantism after, among other things, witnessing a pimp drag one of his whores out of Travis' cab.
Who is Sport, and what has he done?
"Sport", real name Matthew, is a pimp who traffics underage girls. Introduced dragging "Easy", real name Iris, out of Travis Bickle's cab, Sport throws a twenty dollar bill into Travis' passenger seat in an attempt to make him forget about the incident. When Travis asks to spend 15 minutes with Iris, under the false pretences of having sex with her, Sport lists off the number of sex acts that are permitted, with the exception of rough activity so as not to decrease Iris' value. Upon learning of Iris' intention to discontinue her life of prostitution, Sport sweet talks her into staying, intending to continue pimping her out. During his final confrontation with Travis, he denies knowing who Iris is.
Fortunately, Travis shoots the bastard and anyone associated with him, rescuing Iris and presumably the other prostitutes.
Heinousness?
Travis himself is an attempted political assassin and an eventual vigilante. He encounters a customer who plans on murdering his wife, armed robbers, an arms/drug dealer, and prostitutes. Sport is really the only pimp shown onscreen, he is shown profiteering off of the sexual exploitation of pubescent girls, and is shown manipulating Iris emotionally in the process of coercing her into prostitution. In the final shootout, Iris is about to engage with a client before Travis interrupts.
I should note that part of the movie's message is that Travis is only a hero due to circumstance, and is still capable of doing worse, but that doesn't make Sport's actions any less disturbing.
Mitigating Factors?
You talkin' to me? Nothing there! Sport is a fuckin' Sleazebag, and his charm is superficial.
Verdict?
A possible contender.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Maybe I read too much into it...Hold up...What part of coercing underage girls into prostitution does not pass the baseline? Oh, I see what you are saying.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 10:47:39 AM
Feels good, don't it?
No to Sport. He doesn't do anything at all. He's just...a pimp, he's there, there are girls working for him. He doesn't pass the baseline IMO
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 23rd 2020 at 7:34:05 AM
I dunno, he does pimp out a 14 year old.
He's scummy, but "scum" is not equivalent to "Complete Monster". He's an icky pimp, not a mass child trafficker, and the film doesn't treat him with any more gravitas than that.
The Draftsman of Doom
So there is a baseline for human trafficking. I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 10:43:42 AM
Feels good, don't it?
No there, too much shit going down in that movie, too little focused on Sport.
Yes to Hydra though.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 10:44:50 AM
Hydra
Sport (I feel Scorsese movies have a fucked up heinousness standard, with some exceptions)
BTW, has You Seem Acquainted With Those Doors been put on the chopping block yet (link to the fic is dead)
to Baron, Durgerth, Xapha, and Hydra
to the old sport
Now then here are my write-ups (I also edited Ullrich's write-up a little):
- Braven (2018): Kassen is a violent drug lord who first establishes himself by beating one of his own men to death in a public diner upon hearing the lost of his drugs. Attempting to retrieve his drugs from a cabin that Weston and Hallett stashed it in, Kassen kills Weston for interrupting him before ordering the rest of his men to kill the Braves family in the cabin, child included. Kassen would then take Linden Braven hostage where he murders him in front of his son Joe and shoots the sheriff dead, before trying to kill Joe, while telling his intent to gut Joe’s wife and daughter like he did his father.
- Babylon Berlin
- Trochin is a Soviet ambassador whose task with finding the train carrying gold and hunting down the Trotskyist. To his ends, Trochin has his men massacre a printing shop, killing 15 people, while tracking down the sole survivor and tortures him until he gives up information about the train, where he then kills him. When the train he locates is rigged with nerve gas, he leaves his men to die, while he tries to save himself. It would also be revealed that Trochin is collaborating with Black Reichwehr to overthrow the current government of Germany, where he sells them out to avoid jail time for his atrocities.
- Dr. Leopold Ullrich is a police analyst who turns on the force to achieve fame and glory for himself. Discovering the people who murdered the first actress in a film lot, Ullrich uses the evidence to blackmail them into committing more murders, before framing Walter Weintraub for these murders, just so Ullrich can "catch" him and be viewed as a hero. When Gereon Rath and Charlotte "Lotte" Ritter learn of Ullrich's crimes, he injects them with insulin, while also killing his own assistant once he catches on as well. He would then kidnap the police commissioner, Ernst "Buddah" Gennat, attempting to hang him while framing Gereon for Gennat’s death.
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 23rd 2020 at 5:26:32 AM
Showtime!
Showtime!
Edit: sorry fo the double post, internet issue
Edited by Libraryseraph on Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:47:12 AM
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Yes to the Baron.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread