During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, I'm not sure an Arc Villain of an MLP work needs a longer entry than Red freaking Skull.
EDIT: Oh, just a reminder that the SAO swapping will take place in about 17 hours.
Edited by ACW on Aug 9th 2018 at 6:58:25 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Dusknoir
I reserved The Banner Saga 3 and found that no one in that game (or in the Banner Saga Trilogy) counts because the trilogy's heinous standard is too high for any individual villain to stand out.
Dusknoir
Yes to everyone except Dusknoir and as the one who rewrote Featherduster I don't see the point in giving another rewrite. This seems to just embellish on what I already had by adding surrounding plot details... we want neat summaries of crimes, not whole sentences devoted to establishing what was happening when the villain did their crimes.
Also, on the topic of rewrites, were we not musing over reinstating Scraggs' entry for Dickson instead of the version that ended up being used?
Edited by 43110 on Aug 9th 2018 at 7:50:52 AM
Yeah, I'm gonna switch back to the original Featherduster entry when the page gets unlocked, assuming it doesn't already get fixed.
Along with that, even if we preferred the rewrite, please propose it on the thread before you edit it on the YMMV page in the future.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Aug 9th 2018 at 8:40:22 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Speaking of rewrites... Do you think that these two from literature section needs one or just keep it as it is?
- Uncle Tom's Cabin: Simon Legree is a chilling reminder of the evils of slavery in human form. Legree is brutal to his slaves, working them to death because he considers it a financial boon to himself. It's also made clear he'd do it solely for fun. Legree endeavors to break their spirits and make them despair as he breaks their bodies and minds. Legree is a torturer, rapist and murderer whose only frustration is the good-hearted slave Tom will simply refuse to break, spurring Legree on to greater cruelties to force his submission.
- Dresden Files: Capiocorpus, also known as the Corpsetaker and The Grey Ghost, who also appears in Ghost Story, is one of the few surviving students of Heinrich Kemmler, one of the most powerful and evil necromancers ever-and she certainly learned her lessons well. The Corpsetaker defines herself as being the most sadistic and cruel of the necromancers in series in her pursuit of the Darkhollow, which would require her to consume the souls of thousands of innocent people. Corpsetaker regularly performs body theft to prolong her life, reveling in the agony of her victims as she steals their bodies and lives from them.
While I'm cool if we left the entry as it is. I don't know if we should expand it or not
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I don't think that got any opposition, 43.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
This is a case where I'd say either or is fine. They're short, but they still do get across why the characters keep.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Ah that makes sense.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
And now...YHVH again. Shin Megami Tensei having him as evil with zero redeeming traits is Older than You Think.
Like. Literally before the franchise as we know it.
Setting?
Megami Tensei II is, as the name suggests, the sequel to Megami Tensei for the Famicom. Despite being a direct sequel to the events of the first game, it has little to nothing to do with the original Digital Devil Story plotline. The game resembles, and likely inspired, the Shin Megami Tensei games that followed it, with lots of fans calling it the first "real" Megaten game.
In the year 199X, the world thrown into nuclear war and Tokyo was hit by a missile strike. During the resulting chaos, a horde of demons from Makai managed to launch an invasion of the human world, pretty much conquering it. Cut 35 years later, where various demon lords fight it out for control of Tokyo, and humanity struggles to survive in the ruins of the city and the bomb shelters where they fled years before. In one such bomb shelter, a young man and his friend come across the sealed demon Pazuzu while playing a mysterious game known as "Devil Busters". Pazuzu, claiming to be a servant of God, declares the two as the Messiahs who will save humanity from the demons and grants one with the Demon Summoning Program that will allow him to talk to, and recruit, the demons, and teaches the other magic. Shortly afterwards, however, the bomb shelter is attacked by demons and the two are thrust out into the ruined, demon infested world.
Now. Who is the guilty of this stuff. Well, obviously the answer is...Blame God.
What YHVH did this time?
Pazuzu didn't lie. In a double twist, it turns out that Pazuzu, despite leading demons was truly aligned with God in an act of betrayal against his fellow demons. Pazuzu does a lot of bad stuff in the name of his master like trying to kill Bael in order to become the lord of Tokyo himself and being The Corrupter to The Rival of the MC. All of this is bad, but this is just a small part of YHVH' actions.
YHVH is encountered in an underground corridor in Ginza after defeating Satan, a demon lord Made of Evil and have pleasant stuff as decapitated heads in the house of his human disguise and The Heavy of the game, having started the nuclear destruction of Tokyo. When Satan is killed in the regular ending, the game ends but if the player does revive Lucifer and have him on his party, they would be teleported to a secret chamber which contains the corridor to YHVH Himself.
There, it is revealed that YHVH ordered Satan to start the nuclear war that devastated the world and lead the demon invasion to wipe out humanity.
He speaks to the protagonist while he's walking through the final hallway, condemning him and Lucifer for their actions and telling them that the world will be destroyed if he is killed, trying to coerce them into retreating.
When the hero meets YHVH, he is offered a chance to betray Lucifer and become a divine being or battle YHVH, for a total of two possible endings.
If the hero chooses to side with YHVH, Lucifer is immediately struck down with the eternal flame, and the hero and his companion are invited to YHVH's Millennium Kingdom. The epilogue mentions that the world infested with malice disappears completely, while the hero and his companion are transformed into godly beings in a world of bliss for themselves.
If the hero chooses to fight against YHVH, he claims that the hero will burn in hellfire until the end of the world. After fighting against them and losing, however, YHVH starts disappearing, shocked at being destroyed by his own creations. Before vanishing completely, YHVH reveals that he is only a small part of the entity that oversees and controls infinite universes, and that his vast consciousness will allow Him to reform, warning the hero that he has chosen the harshest path for his future. The MC goes to a secret computer and manages to banish all demons to their world, giving peace to manking for once.
Heinous Stardard?
Easy yes due to the whole God Is Evil. Pazuzu and his manipulations, Satan and the apocalypse. All is on Him too.
His goal is effectively destroy the whole world for...reasons, such is Early-Installment Weirdness. This YHVH don't even have the whole wanting Eternal Worship going for him.
For a Famicon game with few dialogue and images? That is pretty high and would still be even in modern SMT games.
Redeeming traits?
He calls the MC a messiah and gives him a world of bliss...if he chooses to not defy him. That is all. While destroying the whole world and killing everyone.
Otherwise, he glady will try to kill him and send his soul to hell. He is a Flat Character, but the presence of his servants Pazuzu and Satan (especially the latter) really do give the point that he is evil.
Verdict?
The first YHVH and one of the most proudly evil takes on him. I say ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
. Flat Character that was behind all the horror of the game is such a common JRPG archetype.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 9th 2018 at 8:11:09 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Half-Demon Dude In A Bizarre World
To both versions of YHVH.
Edited by dood9780 on Aug 9th 2018 at 6:48:51 AM
"Death's vastness holds no peace. I come at the end of the long road—neither human, nor devil... All bends to my will." -Demifiend.
Sure, YHVH
Lizzid people!
Uhhh that EP looks pretty plagiarized to me...
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Oh yeah. I usually tend to just copypaste info from the wikis if is available at the time of list the deeds. Is faster than just writing it from memories of the game.
I discussed this with someone who actually played the game and watches the scenes involving Satan and YHVH myself
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 9th 2018 at 9:15:23 AM
Watch me destroying my country
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Please do that as seldom as possible.
...so you yourself haven't played it? on principle then.
Not as seldom as possible. Never do it. Ever. It shouldn't have to be said more than once "don't plagiarize, please and thank you."
No. No to YHVH, and no to the previous YHVH unless you can demonstrate you actually know the information is accurate. Even if you're going off a playthrough, watch the entire thing and not just a few scenes there because you can't be sure otherwise.
Edited by Scraggle on Aug 9th 2018 at 8:16:10 AM
Apoc YHVH doesn't count either. He does extremely little onscreen.
Didn't we already conclude YHVH doesn't count from any of the SMH games anyways? I know we've discussed at least one.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Are you sure, because while he does not do things directly onscreen. We really see the whole Merkabah and Lucifer' Forever War and all its consequences, there really no doubt that YHVH did cause it from nobody.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 9th 2018 at 9:21:06 AM
Watch me destroying my country
It's actually part of YHVH's character that he himself does as little as possible so things don't trace back to him. There's also been cases where beings claiming to be acting in his name really aren't and vice versa, and it's just always really ambiguous what comes from him himself and what doesn't.
Yes, Merkabah and Lucifer were split from Satan for the purpose of causing the war. Here's the thing, though - they themselves aren't even aware of this, making their actions effectively their own.
Edited by HamburgerTime on Aug 9th 2018 at 9:22:11 AM
Kaz? I'd advise watching a playthrough and presenting the info for yourself. We do not want info C/P-ed from a wiki on this threat. Accurate information is imperative to a cleanup.
I prefer the original. This stretches out too many details — point is, we're looking for something concise in the entry, not pointless emphasis on stuff that can be described in a tighter paragraph.