During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Think of the mooks!
Okay, going through the subpages of Anime and Manga, the ones that have less than three examples:
- Aura Battler Dunbine - 1
- Baki The Grappler - 1, almost completely spoilered.
- Bio Meat - 1, heavily spoilered.
- Black Lagoon - 2
- Chaos Head - 1
- Code Geass - 2
- Deadman Wonderland - 2
- Death Note - 1
- Ginga Densetsu Weed - 2
- Ginga Nagareboshi Gin - 1
- Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni - 2
- Ichi The Killer - 2
- Magic Knight Rayearth - 1
- Mai Hime - 1
- Mai Otome - 2
- Martian Successor Nadesico - 2
- Monster - 2
- Moon Phase - 1
- MW - 1
- Narutaru - 2
- Now And Then Here And There - 1
- Pure Trance - 1
- Reiko The Zombie Shop - 1
- School Days - 2
- Sengoku Basara - 2
- Speed Grapher - 1
- Twentieth Century Boys - 2
- Yakitate Japan - 1
- Yami No Matsuei - 1
- Zambot 3 - 1
Note that a few of these just are a group of people - Speed Grapher, for example, just lists everyone who got a power that isn't the main character. Those could justify having their own pages if there's enough to expand on each would-be monster. Naturally, this isn't getting into the natter issues in that page, nor is it going into the suitability of any of those examples.
EDIT: ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Thanks.
edited 23rd Jan '12 10:56:55 AM by 32_Footsteps
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I wear no mask.
Looks good. Just write BioMeat period, though, as it autocorrects to Bio Meat. Love the Arkham reference in your profile, though, whether it's a Batman or HP Lovecraft one.
Now for the first of those:
- Luuza Luft from Aura Battler Dunbine (by Yoshiyuki Tomino, again, an Evil Matriarch of the worst kind who plots against her own husband (who, despite being the Big Bad, comes across as more sympathetic than her) to have the power all to herself and her lover Bishott (and it is doubtful she has any loyalty to him as well). She will do absolutely anything to get what she wants, including murdering her own daughter in cold blood, which she threatens to do in an early episode and actually does prior to the bloody finale. Her Karmic Death at the hands of Rimru's heartbroken boyfriend is both brutal and highly satisfying.
A bit too many spoilers; appart from that, anybody here seen the series? A bit more insight into her motivations (or lack thereof) would be a nice improvement, as well as maybe one or two other evil acts; normally she'd probably qualify as-is, but we're talking about a depression-era Tomino work here. Unless we try to trim all entries' length as well?
edited 23rd Jan '12 10:05:49 AM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
I wear no mask.
OK, edited the Baki The Grappler entry. Pretty beefy, but I think it explains things pretty well.
- Baki The Grappler's Yujiro Hanma, definitely. He beat the everloving crap of his own son, titular Baki Hanma, so that Baki's entire body, except face, is covered in scars, killed Baki's mother, and then beat up Baki's friends and allies just to show he could. All in less than an hour. Yujiro has enough Charles Atlas Superpower to be effectively untouchable by police and authorities (even the military), and uses his abilities to do whatever suits his fancy without repercussions to put relentless psychological pressure on his son (including, but not limited to, threatening to kill his girlfriend if Baki fails his expectations, and to subject Baki's possible children to the same abuse he had piled on Baki), just to create an opponent worthy of himself. And that's not counting the thousands of people he murdered since he was at least sixteen, or the fact that every fight we've seen him in ended in him delivering a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown while grinning like a maniac, just because it's the sadistic bastard's idea of fun. Or how he treats his other son (i.e. less than dirt on his slippers). Baki puts himself through Training from Hell and a series of incredibly brutal martial arts tournaments just to become able to protect himself and his loved ones from Yujiro. The worst part is that Yujiro hasn't got his comeuppance yet - after about 600+ chapters - although this is somewhat understandable, as his defeat probably would end the series.
P.S. - I think he fits the trope very well (saw the TV series and read some of the French-translated manga).
Edit addressing and : OKAY, I'VE REMOVED THE ALL CAPS BOLD INFLATION, IS THERE ANY OTHER PROBLEM WITH THE ENTRY OR IS IT FINE NOW?
edited 23rd Jan '12 5:04:05 PM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Once again, I'm more bothered by the write-up then whether it qualifies as an example, particularly the ABSURDLY MELODRAMATIC BOLD INFLATION. Can't it be toned down somewhat?
edited 23rd Jan '12 1:36:40 PM by nrjxll
Also note that using ALL CAPS is strongly frowned upon.
I should point out I've already made a TRS topic on merging anime subpages that have less than three examples, and I got more on my list than 32 did; here is a link.
- Aura Battler Dunbine - 1 example
- Baki The Grappler - 1 example (which is almost entirely spoilered out)
- Battle Royale - 1 example, 2 underdefined examples, one non-example with natter)
- Basilisk - 1 example
- Bio Meat - 1 example
- Black Lagoon 1 example, 1 subversion (which shouldn't be on the page to begin with)
- Blade Of The Immortal - 1 example, and several characters grouped in one bullet point, which probably would get cut by the Special Efforts thread
- Chaos Head - 1 example
- Code Geass - 2 examples
- Deadman Wonderland - 2 examples
- Death Note - 1 example
- Fist of the North Star - 1 example
- Ginga Densetsu Weed - 1 example
- Ginga Nagareboshi Gin - 1 example
- Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni - 2 examples
- JoJo's Bizarre Adventure - 2 examples
- Magic Knight Rayearth - 1 example
- Mai-HiME - 1 example
- Mai-Otome - 1 example
- Martian Successor Nadesico - 2 examples
- Monster - 2 examples
- Moon Phase - 1 example
- MW - 1 example
- Now And Then Here And There - 1 example
- Pure Trance - 1 example
- Reiko The Zombie Shop - 1 example
- Sengoku Basara - 2 examples
- Twentieth Century Boys - 2 examples
- Yakitate Japan - 1 example
- Zambot3 - 1 example
Considering how CM has been misused in teh past by tropers who view it as a show's badge of honour to have a character there, and the current clean-up efforts, I think that it'd make the most sense to save seperate subpages for works that have several complete monsters. Thoughts?
It was a unanimous decision to remove any page with less than 3 examples.
Think of the mooks!
Well, I figured that it'd be best to first hit those with unambiguously too few entries. I figured we'd hit ones where, at most, there are two examples no matter how you cut it. Then we could analyze pages like for Blade Of The Immortal - it may be best to just condense all of those into one bullet point, or it might be best to expand those all so that they have their own bullet.
I just want to take care of the easy stuff first, so that way we can measure more progress and then worry about the judgment calls.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Okay, I'm going to move this along now with two examples;
- In a slightly different example, Yokoya from Liar Game definitely fits. He doesn't directly kill or hurt anyone, but while everyone else is in the Liar Game to win money to pay back their huge debts, Yokoya has plenty of money, and only plays the game to manipulate people for his own amusement. He couln't care less whether or not people end up with millions of dollars in debt, and will probably be traded as slaves to pay it back. He also used money, fear and distrust to take control of his high school as a teenager. As a matter of fact, this quote pretty much says it all:
- ...Although the 1941 Hitler was his role model...
- You have a more direct example with Liar Game Roots Of A with a one-shot dealing with a treatment facility. Basically, the director is keeping the completely curable patients in "treatment" to leech government subsidies, i.e. make a massive profit and a source of free labor, while abusive guards torture and beat up these patients. See these pages for yourself.
At the very least I propose cutting the second one because while henious, it's not as bad as the other exammples on the list, he didn't kill anyone or cause anyone to die, and in general he's falling short of the rest of the list. He could be listed as a CM by the standards of the work he's in, but comparatively he's weak, and the page would be stronger if we put the most henious of people in.
The first one is a lot stronger example for CM status, but For the Evulz isn't enough to make him aa CM in my opinion. He's vile, but it seems the worst thing he does (get others into debt and sold off into slavery) isn't an intentional part according to the entry, he just doesn't care that it could happen.
And to go on a role;
- The Big Bad of D.Gray-Man, the Millennium Earl, may at first seem too cheerful and cartoony to be scary. This impression, however, is very quickly corrected as we learn more about him. It's becoming increasingly obvious that he's basically Satan and that there are very good reasons he's the only person in existence that Allen hates.
I'm propposing that we cut this one due to lack of detail. Sure he's probably a CM, but it must be self-evident from the description.
I wear no mask.
Nobody wants to express further opinions on the entries I brought up? 
Oh well, I'll get my 2 cents in for Shaoken's post![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
.
Haven't read enough to express an opinion on Liar Game, but I have read enough D Gray Man to not only confirm the Millenium Earl's CM status, but also add more demonstrative elements to the entry; I'll post it when I'm done.
EDIT: Okay, how does this look? Too wordy?
- The Big Bad of D Gray Man, the Millennium Earl, may at first seem too cheerful and cartoony to be scary. This impression, however, is very quickly corrected as we learn more about him. Being an Omnicidal Maniac is just the beginning: as an example, his favored tools of destruction, the akuma, are created in one of the most horrific ways imaginable- he finds people grieving at the loss of a loved one, and offers to bring them back; if the grieving person accepts, the Earl then rips the soul of the departed from whatever afterlife there is and imprisons it in a black skeletal frame that kills the living person by forcing its way down their mouth and throat and uses their carcass to impersonate them and infiltrate human society to better commit atrocities, feeding the vicious cycle of grieving people unknowingly giving the Earl a way to create ever more akuma...
- And it gets worse when it's revealed that the more an akuma evolves, the more powerful and evil it becomes, but the soul has a separate consciousness from that of the akuma and is forced to powerlessly witness the countless horrors its host akuma perpetrates while writhing in constant agony at the accumulating corruption that eats at it, and by the time an akuma becomes level 2, the soul is so tainted and mutilated that destroying its host body in almost any way also causes it to be annihilated by the accumulated corruption. There are four akuma levels. And the Earl could restore any and all existing akuma whenever he wanted, but never has. And did we mention he gleefully genocided the whole of Japan just to use the place as a base of operations? It's becoming increasingly obvious that he's basically Satan and that there are very good reasons he's the only person in existence that Allen hates.
edited 25th Jan '12 9:29:07 PM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
If that had been on the page already, I would have wanted it cut for natter. But it does sound like he's a legitimate example.
Example Indentation: Those should be paragraph breaks (\\\\), not successive bullet points.
edited 25th Jan '12 11:35:48 PM by Nocturna
Think of the mooks!
For the Liar Game example... we're talking about the spoilered addition, correct? I agree that entry isn't quite as strong. And while I certainly would use it as support for an argument, it isn't quite enough on its own.
For D Gray Man, I also have read much of that. Given his part regarding the creation of akuma, I'll agree that the Millennium Earl applies. That said, that's too wordy (and the part left spoilered is not important for the trope. To try to condense that down:
- The Big Bad of D Gray Man, the Millennium Earl, may at first seem too cheerful and cartoony to be scary. This impression, however, is very quickly corrected as we learn more about him. Being an Omnicidal Maniac is just the beginning: as an example, his favored tools of destruction, the akuma, are created in one of the most horrific ways imaginable - he finds people grieving at the loss of a loved one, and offers to bring them back; if the grieving person accepts, the Earl then rips the soul of the departed from whatever afterlife there is and imprisons it in a black skeletal frame that kills the living person by forcing its way down their mouth and throat and uses their carcass to impersonate them and infiltrate human society to better commit atrocities, feeding the vicious cycle of grieving people unknowingly giving the Earl a way to create ever more akuma. Further, almost any method of destruction destroys the soul empowering it. And it gets worse when it's revealed that the more an akuma evolves, the akuma develops a separate, evil consciousness from that the soul, which continues to powerlessly witness the countless horrors its host akuma perpetrates while writhing in constant agony at the accumulating corruption that eats at it. He also gleefully wiped out all of Japan (Apocalypse How, Regional Species Extinction) just to use the place as a base of operations? It's becoming increasingly obvious that he's Satan and that there are very good reasons he's the only person in existence that Allen hates.
The other examples are also fine, so far as I can see.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I wear no mask.
Good rewrite, though maybe the tidbit about the earl being able to restore akuma but never having done so should have been kept. I'll change the entry's text soon as I can if no one else has anything more to say.
EDIT: Fair enough.
edited 27th Jan '12 5:56:34 AM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Think of the mooks!
I think the fact that he can restore akuma and doesn't to be incidental - not only that, but I think that is actualy part and parcel of being an Omnicidal Maniac. It'd be redundant to mention it. Besides, he already basically kills people and enslaves souls. The fact that he doesn't let them go is small in comparison (just as the fact that most other slavers don't let their slaves go isn't made explicit in other CM entries where it's applicable).
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Alright, so cut Liar Game seems to be the concesses.
As for D Gray-Man, that's still getting too long. You don't have anything else you can trim off of it?
Think of the mooks!
Well, let's see if I can reduce it further...
- The Millennium Earl from D Gray Man. He's solely responsible for the creation of the Akuma, technological weapons made by binding a soul and that eat other souls to grow. He deliberately searches for people who hit their Despair Event Horizon to trick them into giving up the souls of their loved ones to use those souls to animate them. His ultimate goal is to kill off all of humanity - And he's already succeeded in killing everyone in Japan.
It's a bit bare-bones, as it doesn't get into the details that really makes him nasty, but those are the major salient points.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Maybe a little bit more (like a sentance) about how the process works to seal the deal.
Would Tirek from the original MLP show qualify? He's a pretty nasty guy (kidnapping scores of ponies and brainwashing/mutating them into dragon-like creatures that pulled his carriage) and a textbook Evil Overlord. Everyone also seems to be terrified of him, too.
Does he really qualify as a Complete Monster, though?
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
He's really no worse than any fantasy badguy I can think of. And let's face it, you're unlikely to have a Complete Monster in a show for young kids. He never even killed anyone.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Whilst I don't believe that dude applies, I'm not sure you have to kill someone to be a Complete Monster. A good ol' Fate Worse than Death or two should suffice.
edited 31st Jan '12 2:31:44 PM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
We already had someone try to put Discord in, and he doesn't fit. Simply put, MLP doesn't have any villians who are "truly henious" by any stretch of the word.
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
The question is "do standards of kid-friendly contradict CM portrayal" which in turn depends on what the standards of "kid-friendly" are at a given point in time.
edited 2nd Feb '12 7:31:05 PM by HiddenFacedMatt
"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Reading tropes such as You Know What You Did
I was playing Red Alert 3 as the Soviets and during one of the Uprising\Commander's Challenge missions, The Omega Program, I heard this quote from one of the characters.
"Why not little children?"
This was from the elite sniper unit, Natasha Vokova. I listened to it several times to make sure I heard it right, I distinctly heard her ask why not kill little children. Would this qualify?
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours
If it fits all the criteria here, yes.
I have really sincerely no idea what the target demographic or "kid-friendliness" of a show matters with regard to someone being a Complete Monster. The criteria of Complete Monster do not include any demographics rule, and I don't think that "kid-friendly" somehow implies that no one can fit CM criteria.
Well, it should be 'no remorse for the amount of lives destroyed', but looks good otherwise.
What's precedent ever done for us?