During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
This is my first time suggesting someone to fit the trope of Complete Monster, but here goes nothing.
What is the Work?
Frozen Turtles is a crossover between the Frozen franchise and the 2012 incarnation of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and followed by 4 sequels. The first fic is a rather simple story: a fight between the TMNT and Kraang causes the turtles to end up in Arendelle, and after saving Queen Elsa's life from assassination attempts, the turtles become close friends of the Arendellian royal family and their friends. However, where the TMNT are, there will be one enemy who is close behind...the Shredder.
Who is the Shredder and What Have They Done?
Oroku Saki, aka the Shredder, is the leader of the Foot Clan of ninja, and one of the deadliest killers in Japan.
Even before the events of the fanfic, Oroku Saki has a laundry list of horrible crimes: motivated by revenge for the slaughter of the Foot Clan at the hands of the Hamato Clan (the clan who raised him as one of their own) and jealousy of their leader's son and his foster brother Hamato Yoshi, he slaughtered the entire clan, killing women and children and sparing no one. Also angry at Hamato Yoshi for winning the heart of Tang Shen, a woman both were in love with, he sought to murder him, but Tang Shen took the fatal shot. Blaming Hamato Yoshi for her death, Oroku Saki, now going by the moniker of the Shredder, attempted to burn down Yoshi's house, stealing Yoshi's daughter Miwa and raising her as his own daughter, renaming her Karai and deceiving her by telling her that Hamato Yoshi killed her mother and that Saki was her father. When he found out that Hamato Yoshi had escaped and was living in New York under the moniker of Master Splinter (he had since turned into a mutant rat-human hybrid) while raising four mutant turtles as ninja, he brutally beat the four of them to near death, and from then on would do anything to try to kill them. In one instance, he tried to mutate the turtles into monstrous snake mutants so they would kill their adoptive father, but he instead ended up mutating Karai (who had learned the truth and sought revenge against him) into a snake-human hybrid, but yet again, he still blamed Splinter for her condition. Afterwards, he brainwashed her so that she would serve him, but she would eventually break free.
Keep in mind that all of this was prior to the events of the fanfic. Let's go over the events of the fanfic series and see why he qualifies. Just for note, the second and fourth stories will be ignored, as they are one-shot stories and focus on the Laughably Evil Kraang Subprime instead of Shredder.
The first story, Frozen Turtles has his actions being relatively minor, as he spends most of his time back on the TMNT's world sending minions to do his bidding until later in the story. However, it still does plant the seeds for his future atrocities, as when Prince Hans tells him about the cryokinetic abilities of Elsa, he becomes interested in her powers, seeking them for himself and inducting the prince into his ranks, managing to capture her and having Stockman-Fly take a sample of her blood. However, when Hans attempts to usurp the Shredder, Saki slaughters the prince with no hesitation or regret, and when Elsa reveals that she cannot give him her powers, he instead elects to make her join him via threatening Elsa's little sister Anna. When Elsa escapes, he orders an all-out attack on Arendelle with every member of the Foot Clan, giving explicit orders to burn the kingdom to the ground and slaughter everyone in it so Elsa has nowhere to return to, also stating his belief that he is worthy of Elsa's power. While the Shredder ultimately fails and is defeated (though he does try to make Elsa strike him down in the middle of the fight), it still sets the tone for how monstrous Oroku Saki is.
The third story, Frozen Turtles in Space, has his role be small, but its effects are wide ranging. During the fight against the Triceratons, Shredder and Splinter have to turn off the Black Hole generator; if they don't, Earth will be destroyed. While Splinter attempts to turn it off, though, Shredder instead seizes the opportunity to stab Splinter In the Back, killing him and dooming Earth. What is his reaction to being reminded of Earth's fate by his second-in-command Tiger Claw? Declare Earth's destruction Worth It if Splinter is dead. Yes, that's right: the Shredder values sating his inane grudge against Splinter as more important than the lives of everyone on the entire fucking planet, and because of his actions, the TMNT, Elsa, and their allies have to travel back in time so they can try to avert Earth's destruction! Thankfully, he is inflicted with Laser-Guided Karma at the end of the story, as he is brutally beaten into a critical condition, but still, the fact that Shredder considered sating his stupid grudge against Splinter more important than the survival of everyone else on Earth is inexcusable.
The fifth story, Frozen Turtles: Into the Unknown, has Shredder reach the apex of his monstrosity, going from possibly fitting this trope to definitely fitting this trope. Left in a crippled state after the third story and seeking to take everything away from his enemies, Saki finally reaches his goal of gaining Elsa's powers via mixing her blood with mutagen, turning him into the monstrous Super Shredder. Making his debut later on, he proceeds to give all of the protagonists a Curb-Stomp Battle, forcing Splinter to attempt a Heroic Sacrifice so both die together. Even though both survive, Oroku Saki, through his connection to Elsa, makes his way to Ahtohallan. While there, he is confronted by visions of the past, finally getting him to drop his Self-Serving Memory (the root of his Never My Fault tendencies), but instead of pushing him to perform a Heel–Face Turn, Shredder embraces his evil while corrupting Ahtohallan in the process. Believing that his humanity is what holds him back, he decides to destroy Splinter once and for all to destroy the last remnant of his humanity, and unfortunately for the heroes, he succeeds in killing Splinter. By the end of the story, Oroku Saki, dubbed the Reaper Shredder by Mikey, sees himself as an embodiment of death, seeking to reduce the Enchanted Forest and Arendelle to lifeless wastelands before moving onto his Earth, killing all who cross him.
In summary, Shredder first started as an unrepentant monster whose inability to accept responsibility for anything he did and willing to do anything to kill Master Splinter or gain Elsa's power, no matter how many people had to suffer in the process. After his trip to Ahtohallan, though, he evolves into an Omnicidal Maniac, hellbent on destroy all life that would cross him.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
One could argue that he does have a Freudian Excuse in the form of trying to avenge his fallen clan, but his massacre of the Hamato Clan in its entirety feels like Disproportionate Retribution, especially since the Hamato Clan leader found him in the remains of the village, but chose to adopt him instead of killing him. He also may love his adoptive daughter Karai, but his desire to see Splinter dead far outweighs any love he has for her, since he was willing to sacrifice all the lives on Earth (including Karai) just so that Splinter would be no more. Eventually, once he renounces his humanity, he also loses his love for her, so that mitigating factor is rendered moot.
Really, the only mitigating factor he has is that the Shredder doesn't moan about his final defeat but chooses to Face Death with Dignity, complimenting Elsa and Leo for their final attack. But that means jack shit when one considers all the death, pain, and destruction his actions caused. The fact that Elsa calls him a devil by the end of the story should indicate how monstrous he is.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
By Frozen standards, the Shredder sticks out like a sore thumb (he did kill Hans after all), and while King Runeread qualified for this trope, Oroku Saki manages to out-evil him by virtue of becoming an Omnicidal Maniac. By TMNT standards, he still is a vile, monstrous person, managing to outdo his canon self in just how vile and destructive he was: while canon Super Shredder still remained obsessed with destroying Splinter's bloodline, he did not go as far as Saki did here, and the Reaper Shredder comes very close to a Shredder incarnation that has qualified for the Complete Monster trope: Ch'rell.
Final Verdict?
Yes! The Shredder here is first a vile monster motivated by his inability to take responsibility for his actions, and then a literal monster seeking to destroy all life on two Earths. He far outdoes his canon self in destruction and evil, and is one of the evilest incarnations of the Shredder in TMNT fanfics.
Edited by eruptor142 on Nov 25th 2021 at 11:36:09 AM
How sincere is Shredder's Villain Respect for Elsa and Leo? Even something like that can be disqualifying.
It's towards the end of his life that he does it, and only after all the hatred that has plagued his mind has left him that he gives them respect, and it's the only time he showed it. The time he tells them well-fought is when he's literally falling to pieces and dying. Any other time he was alive, he was mocking and hateful to Elsa, denigrating her as a weakling unable to use her gift to its full potential. He also mocks all the turtles beforehand, so he also didn't respect them either.
Edited by eruptor142 on Nov 25th 2021 at 12:15:54 PM
Lizzid people!
Thinking about it more, I'll just abstain.
Edited by AustinDR on Nov 25th 2021 at 8:21:16 AM
Maybe? It just feels like too little, too late, and only after they defeated him.
I will acknowledge that perhaps, he did sincerely respect them for defeating him. He did nod in approval and look in respect, so maybe you're right.
Professor Gigachad
The thing is it doesn't matter how little or late a redeeming quality is if it is genuine it is still disqualifying, leaning ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Shredder. I think showing respect only once isn’t enough when all other times you just mock the heroes. We’ve approved several CM characters who showed respect. Frieza is one example
Also not quite sold he doesn't care for his dead clan either. Yes to Scraggle's though!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Frieza is pointedly not a comparison I feel works here. He's a Blood Knight but also a sadistic coward who will turn from relishing a fight to pleading for his life.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 25th 2021 at 4:17:47 PM
Professor Gigachad
Yeah, that is a good point when talking about his Freudian Excuse of losing his clan you only talk about how his actions outweigh it but you never explain if he subverts his care for his clan.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Let me talk about the revenge motivation. At first, I can agree that he did initially want revenge for his murdered family, Splinter said as much. However, let me expand on two main details as to why I feel his Freudian Excuse falls flat. First, there really wasn't anyone for Saki to avenge, as he was a baby at the time the Foot/Hamato war was over. Second, there were no indications that Saki was treated any differently from the rest of the clan for his Foot heritage, and was raised by the leader of the clan as his own son with no differing treatment. Indeed, Hamato Yoshi and Saki used to be close to one another with a friendly rivalry between them.
If nothing else, Saki defintely qualifies for Disproportionate Retribution, because while his desire for revenge for the Foot Clan's demise can be somewhat justified, keep in mind that the Hamato Clan leader took him in as a baby despite him being born of the Foot and raised him as one of his own. He also fell through Motive Decay, since even after he pretty much completely exterminated the Hamato Clan, he still continued to keep clinging to his Irrational Hatred of Splinter, no matter how many years had passed.
Edited by eruptor142 on Nov 25th 2021 at 12:06:02 PM
It's been a while since I've been here...but I hope to add a "Yes" to Shredder.
Professor Gigachad
That is a bit odd so your saying none of his actions are based on revenge for the death of his clan but he is motivated by it that sounds like some odd writing maybe he could work with that, but I am still downvoting due to the respect.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Omell
Hold off on Shredder
Let me make it clear. I feel that initially, Shredder was motivated by wanting revenge for his clan on some level. The problem with claiming this Freudian Excuse absolves him of being a Complete Monster is that it isn't the only reason behind Shredder's actions, and the fact that his desire for revenge for the Foot Clan's death is more of a "told, not shown" detail.
Shredder was also motivated by jealousy of Splinter, and this eventually festered into Irrational Hatred when Tang Shen chose Splinter over Shredder. This eventually superseded his desire to avenge his clan, and that became one of his primary traits: his constant blaming of his life's misfortunes on Splinter. I feel that kind of Motive Decay makes his Freudian Excuse fall flat, especially when he takes no responsibility for his role in the misfortunes of his life.
Additionally, as for visibility of his "avenging his clan" Freudian Excuse? That motivation is never mentioned when he's onscreen (for lack of a better word): his onscreen motivations keep coming back to his Irrational Hatred of Splinter and how his Self-Serving Memory has him blame Splinter instead of himself for his life's misfortunes. Here's a quote from chapter 14 of the first fanfic in the series that explains his motives.
Is there any mention of Shredder wanting to avenge the Foot Clan? No, you can see here that the primary motive for his actions is not to avenge his clan, but kill Splinter by any means necessary. We're only ever told he wanted to avenge his clan once, and that was in the summary of the beginning of the enmity between Splinter and Shredder in chapter 17 of the first fanfic. Afterwards, it's never mentioned again, and his motives consistently lean towards killing Splinter.
This is why I feel that Shredder wanting to avenge his clan is a flimsy Freudian Excuse: it's not his only motivation for his actions and is eventually superseded by his Irrational Hatred for Hamato Yoshi, and he also never mentions his intent to avenge the Foot Clan when he's onscreen.
Edited by eruptor142 on Nov 25th 2021 at 1:32:54 PM
Best Smile
Kaverin, Satan, Ironsmoke, Omell.
Keep Oz candidates.
Abstain on Shredder.
Cad.
Imperfect Disgrace
Abstain on Shredder.
Just an empty void…
Professor Gigachad
Thinking about it I will switch to an Abstain on Shredder I have no idea what to think of him.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 25th 2021 at 9:51:24 AM
Wow did I just triple post? So sorry about that
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 25th 2021 at 9:51:13 AM
Just finish seeing Hit-Monkey? PM me if you want to discuss
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 25th 2021 at 8:42:05 AM
Unfortunately...I think Shredder just misses. Not so much the respect, but flipping through, I think the care for the clan, disproportionate as his actions might be is just a smidge too genuine. Also, in the parts I skimmed, even if he's to blame, he states he hates Splinter because "because of you, I lost my daughter."
Great effort, but sadly I think we're dealing with a near CM rather than a full one. And I commend you for bringing us a fanfic CM we're actually happy to discuss.
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 25th 2021 at 11:02:56 AM
Woagh
to Shredder, it sounds like he's a wee bit too delusional for this trope. Nice job on your first attempt though.
Also, hang tight, cuz...I got some I'm excited for. A werewolf comic, one hell of a nasty gang from a Splatter Western (maybe one of the worst I've ever done) and...one maybe from Spine of Night Jackie mighta missed
A few days ago I made a proposal for Emperor Banba from Inazuman. My proposal was approved but KazuyaProta brought up some concerns about Banba's heinousness that I felt I should address before doing a writeup for him.
Kazuya's main contention was that Banba is less heinous in comparison to his much more genocidal fellow villain, Fuhrer Geisel. Now one thing about my proposal was that it didn't go into detail about most of Banba's plans in the individual episodes, so I figure I'll elaborate on a few of Banba's worst crimes and leave it to you all to decide if Banba counts.
Episode 10 - Banba employs the Mutant Robot Gas Banbara, who uses his powers to kill dozens in poison gas attacks across Japan, including a research team sent to uncover the source of the poison gas attacks.
Episode 12 - Banba is shown to have kidnapped humans to use as slaves for the Neo-Human Empire, who his Mutant Robot Devil Banbara later tries to wipe out with a bomb.
Episode 18 - Banba employs Poison Banbara, a Mutant Robot who can kill people and revive them as a berserkers with his poison, to use his poison on various women and turn them into rampaging soldiers of the Neo-Human Empire. In the instance we see, Poison Banbara uses his poison on an actress and causes her to go on a rampage, killing an entire film crew. His forces later go after a young boy who witnessed their plans and try to kill him.
Episode 21 - Banba sends out the Bamboo Banbara, who in his introductory scene uses his powers to spread "red bamboo" across a village and kill everyone in it, including the elderly. He later uses his powers to paralyze Goro Watari and attempts to bury him alive.
Episode 24 - Banba has Stone Banbara kidnap humans and use them as slave laborers to complete a Phantom Army missile base. Once the base is completed, Stone Banbara attempts to have all of them executed, but they are saved by Inazuman.
For reference, here is my original Banba proposal and here is my proposal for Fuhrer Geisel.
Got a new possible image of Brainiac
.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Nov 25th 2021 at 6:57:13 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes