To-do list:
- Move wicks for Main.Trope Decay to Administrivia.Trope Decay.
- * List the Playing with a Trope index as as sub-index of Trope Tropes via a floatbox, similarly to how Audience Reactions is listed as a sub-index of YMMV.Home Page via a floatbox on YMMV.Home Page, and limit listings for ways of playing with a trope to the sub-index. (The main Playing with a Trope page would still be indexed on Trope Tropes.)
- Sort the listings that are staying on Trope Tropes into separate folders (for example, listing pages like Forgotten Trope, Dead Horse Trope, Trope Makers, and related concepts in a folder for concepts related to trope life cycles, listing Pet-Peeve Trope, Favorite Trope, Older Than They Think, and related concepts in a folder about audience perceptions of tropes, listing Sister Trope, Sub-Trope, and Super-Trope, and related concepts in a folder for relationships between tropes, etc.).
I'd have put Misused, but since this is an index I think Needs Help is more fitting. Also, oldest version of the page on the Internet Archive
.
The problem: Trope Tropes is an index about "tropes about tropes", as the very short description mentions. Per the opening text:
Unfortunately, as the description alludes to, some of the listed entries do not fit this definition. Some, like Trope Decay, are suspected of being Administrivia pages in disguise, and others, like the actual Administrivia section, just don't seem to fit at all. One big problem is that some entries are about tropes and their use in wiki concepts, mistakenly put on this index. Quoting GastonRabbit:
Possible solution: I propose cleaning the index's individual entries via crowner, similar to what was done with Administrivia.No Straight Examples Please and Administrivia.Definition Only Pages. I also propose moving Trope Decay itself to Administrivia.
What does everyone else think? Any other ideas or suggestions?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2023 at 1:17:58 PM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Paging ~The Mayor of Simpleton and ~FernandoLemon to the thread. (I also asked to be paged if someone else made the thread, but it would be redundant in this case.)
Anyway, I'll go through the list and try to figure out what to do with which pages (if anything), similarly to what I did with No On-Page Examples and No Straight Examples, Please!, but I'm too tired right now, so I'll come back to this one later. Some might need to be moved to Administrivia in addition to not being actual Trope Tropes, but I don't feel like looking through them right now.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 8th 2023 at 8:50:47 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Saw the thread open.
I stand by the suggestions in the OP.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Just stoic wisdom.
Sounds good, Mayor.
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
Agree with individual cleanup.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Ninja Gamer Writer
I'm up for some summer cleaning (can't say spring cleaning, because it isn't spring any more).
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
OK, I'll copy and paste the list here and comment on them.
This quote from me in the OP is relevant to my rationale for saying what belongs and what doesn't:
I'm still tired as I previously mentioned, so I might come back to revise the list later, but here's at least the first revision for now:
- Averted Trope: The trope is not used in a situation where one would expect it. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Bait-and-Switch: Subversion as humor. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Characteristic Trope: Trope becomes discredited due to audience associating it with a certain show. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Conversational Troping: A Seinfeldian Conversation about tropes that characters have seen in another work. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Cyclic Trope: The trope alternates between being played straight and discredited. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Dead Horse Trope: Not only is the trope discredited, but the parodies, subversions, etc. are more common and well-known than straight use ever was. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Dead Unicorn Trope: The so-called Dead Horse Trope was never used seriously to begin with. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Deconstructed Trope: Trope is played straight, but with realistic consequences. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Defied Trope: A character says and/or does something to the effect of: "You thought we were going to use this trope? Hell no!" This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Discredited Trope: A trope that no one plays straight anymore, lest they face ridicule. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Discussed Trope: A trope is discussed in a situation it would likely happen. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Double Subversion: The trope looks like it's going to be subverted, but is then played straight. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Downplayed Trope: The trope is played straight, but to a lesser degree than most uses. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Enforced Trope: Tropes that are forced into a work by an outside source (usually Executive Meddling or censorship), even if the writer didn't want to include them. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Evolving Trope: The trope evolves after a period of disuse and become relevant again. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Exaggerated Trope: Trope is played straight, with over-the-top results. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Exploited Trope: A character is aware of a trope and tries to take advantage of it. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Favorite Trope: Tropes that the author or audience can't get enough of! This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Forgotten Trope: A trope that no one uses at all anymore. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Gender-Inverted Trope: Trope specific to one gender is used with the other in mind. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Implied Trope: Trope is hinted at, but not shown happening. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Intended Audience Reaction: When an Audience Reaction is intentionally invoked by the authors or creators. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Inverted Trope: The opposite of what one expects is done. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Invoked Trope: Character sets up a trope on purpose. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Justified Trope: Trope is given a good reason for occurring. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Lampshade Hanging: Illogical trope is mocked in-universe. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Logical Extreme: Trope is pushed to its logical limit, without exaggeration. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Newer Than They Think: This isn't as old as most people think it is. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Older Than They Think: This has been around far longer than you think. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Omnipresent Tropes: Tropes that are present in pretty much all fiction, usually by necessity. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Overdosed Tropes: Tropes that are present in nearly all media, but not by necessity. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Parodied Trope: Trope is made fun of. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Pet-Peeve Trope: Tropes that piss off the audience. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Played for Drama: Trope is meant to be taken seriously. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Played for Horror: Trope that is otherwise innocuous is turned into Nightmare Fuel. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Played for Laughs: Trope is meant to be comedic. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Playing with a Trope: The different ways in which a trope can be used. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Sister Trope: Tropes that share similar ideas. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Spoilered Rotten: Tropes that are spoilers by default. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Sub-Trope: Specific variant of one trope is common enough to become its own trope. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Subverted Trope: Trope looks like it's going to be played straight, but the writer does something else instead. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Super-Trope: The broader category that multiple tropes fall under. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Trope: The conventions and tools used to tell stories. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Trope Breaker: Something that renders a trope useless. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Trope Decay: Trope has lost its meaning due to misuse. This is about a site policy for trope pages, not a meta concept about the tropes our pages are for. Should probably also be moved to the Administrivia/ namespace, and indexed on the Administrivia index if it isn't already there.
- Trope Enjoyment Loophole: When (and perhaps why) something that's a Pet-Peeve Trope doesn't piss somebody off, or the inverse. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Troperiffic: Work uses a lot of different tropes. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Tropes Hidden from Audience: Tropes that creators usually do not want audiences to know about or recognize. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Tropes in Aggregate: Meta-tropes that become apparent when looking at the whole genre or fiction in general. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Trope Telegraphing: "I know exactly what will happen next because of this trope." This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Undead Horse Trope: The trope is constantly played with or scoffed at, but still sees enough straight use to avoid becoming a Dead Horse Trope. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Unbuilt Trope: Trope deconstructed before it was even constructed. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Zig-Zagging Trope: Trope is played with in multiple ways until it's a Mind Screw. This one's fine because it's a meta concept about tropes.
- Everything's Worse with Snowclones: Trope names that are too similar.
- Missing Supertrope: A case in which a supertrope needs to be implemented.
- Not a Deconstruction: Misuses of "deconstructed" within the TV Tropes site.
- Not a Subversion: Misuses of "subverted" within the TV Trope site.
- Square Peg, Round Trope: Tropes that are frequently misused within the TV Tropes site, to the point of Trope Decay.
- Trope-Namer Syndrome: Trying too hard to create the next big Trope Namer at the Trope Launch Pad usually means you're forgetting something important in the process.
- Tropes Are Flexible: Tropes have far more room and variation than some would think.
- Tropes Are Tools: Tropes are not bad, nor good. Just devices used to entertain.
Well, I checked and 52 out of 61 appear to actually fit the index because they're actually meta concepts about tropes (variants of Playing with a Trope, offsite perceptions of tropes, concepts related to trope life cycles, etc.). Trope Decay and the entire Administrivia folder are instead about TV Tropes policies instead of being meta concepts about tropes, so they don't belong on this index. In addition, I think Trope Decay should be moved to Administrivia.Trope Decay.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 8th 2023 at 10:47:46 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.My only real question is, should we have Playing with a Trope be a sub-index of this one, or maybe split those off into a separate folder?
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think making Playing with a Trope a sub-index of Trope Tropes could be an option, and that might include removing them from Trope Tropes to reduce redundancy, since they'll already be listed on the Playing with a Trope index. I think that setup would be similar to how Audience Reactions is listed as a sub-index of YMMV.Home Page, with a floatbox on the latter page listing the sub-indexes.
I think classifying Playing with a Trope as a sub-index of Trope Tropes actually sounds like a good idea now that it's been mentioned. I don't have a strong opinion on whether to limit the listings for ways of playing with tropes to the Playing With index if we do that, with the Trope Tropes index being only listing meta concepts unrelated to ways of playing with tropes if we did that.
Splitting the folders for categories unrelated to ways of playing with a trope might be a good idea, though. I suppose items like Dead Horse Trope and Forgotten Trope could go in a folder for concepts related to trope life cycles, and things like Pet-Peeve Trope and Favorite Trope could go in another category for concepts related to perceptions of tropes.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 8th 2023 at 11:37:59 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Also, Trope should probably be at the top.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
the Retromancer
Many of these are Playing with a Trope, which also lists them, and Playing with a Trope is also listed at Trope Tropes. So I'd highlight Playing with a Trope in a sidebox like YMMV does and remove the following from Trope Tropes to avoid duplication.
Just noting that Trope Tropes itself is a subindex at Meta-Concepts.
Administrivia folder can be cut.
Trope Decay is specific to the website so it should be at Admin/
Edited by Amonimus on Jun 8th 2023 at 9:58:06 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Playing with a Trope being listed independently of the various ways of playing with tropes is a point in favor of listing that page as a sub-index of Trope Tropes via a floatbox and removing individual the ways of playing with tropes in favor of directing people to the Playing with a Trope page for the full list.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 8th 2023 at 2:47:18 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
How sweet it is
The proposals in the OP can work. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
I'm in favor of the Playing with a Trope subdivision.
(she/her)
Playing With is already one of our Sub Wikis (and it's on that index as well) by itself too. I think its fine to have it be a sub-index.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 8th 2023 at 9:57:25 AM
Macron's notes
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I hooked a crowner to sort this out. There ended up not being as much to sort through as with previous index-related TRS threads, so the crowner isn't that big this time.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 11th 2023 at 10:35:24 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Okay, so a couple of questions.
- Is Bait-and-Switch a type of Playing with a Trope? It's a type of Subverted Trope, so I think we should remove it from the index as well.
- Intended Audience Reaction and Gender-Inverted Trope are listed on Playing with a Trope, but should they be deleted because of that? A majority of tropes can't use these, and are not really standard in PlayingWith/ pages. I think these two should keep on this index.
- Finally, the crowner lists Trope Maker as part of the "trope life cycle" tropes, even though it's not on the index. It should probably be added (and maybe Ur-Example as well).
Edited by FernandoLemon on Jun 11th 2023 at 11:43:27 AM
I'd like to apologize for all this.
the Retromancer
- I don't think Bait-and-Switch is a Subverted Trope, as it doesn't require a trope at play. It's a deliberate trick for authors to use fake tension for drama or comedy.
- I don't think Intended Audience Reaction is Playing with a Trope for similar reasons.
- Gender-Inverted Trope doesn't sound like Playing with a Trope, it's closer to Sister Trope.
- Trope Makers and Ur-Example can probably be added.
About that first point, it might need rewriting. As is, it only says "Subversion as humor."
Anyway, here's how I'd organize them:
- Trope at the top, unfoldered.
- Trope life cycle: Characteristic Trope, Cyclic Trope, Dead Horse Trope, Dead Unicorn Trope, Discredited Trope, Evolving Trope, Forgotten Trope, Trope Breaker, Trope Codifier, Trope Maker, Unbuilt Trope, Undead Horse Trope, Ur-Example.
- Variations on a trope: Bait-and-Switch (if kept), Gender-Inverted Trope, Intended Audience Reaction, Tropes Are Flexible, Tropes Are Tools.
- Trope relations: Sister Trope, Sub-Trope, Super-Trope.
- Audience reaction (perception?) to tropes: Favorite Trope, Newer Than They Think, Older Than They Think, Pet-Peeve Trope, Trope Enjoyment Loophole, Trope Telegraphing.
- Trope presence: Omnipresent Tropes, Overdosed Tropes, Troperiffic, Tropes in Aggregate.
- Other (no clue where to sort these): Spoilered Rotten, Tropes Hidden from Audience.
Edited by FernandoLemon on Jun 14th 2023 at 4:47:18 PM
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Huh, completely overlooked that Trope Maker isn't listed, because it should be. The fact that related concepts like Trope Breaker are on there might be why I overlooked the fact that it isn't listed. Well, we can add it when we get around to reorganizing the page.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 11th 2023 at 10:33:28 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
One-Track Mind (he/him)
If Trope Decay is to be moved to Administrivia, the laconic page must be cut, as Administrivia pages cannot have laconics.
This is Idol Tap. (My Troper Wall)
the Retromancer
When it happens, yes.
There's a chance to forget that when it's moved.
Edited by Amonimus on Jun 12th 2023 at 7:54:01 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Speaking of Trope Decay, I went ahead and tagged it and Playing with a Trope. I could have probably only tagged the former since moving the former to Administrivia is a more major change than adding the latter to a floatbox on Trope Tropes (particularly because we wouldn't be changing the Playing with a Trope page itself; we'd just be adjusting its indexing a bit).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 12th 2023 at 11:58:29 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Double posting because I added Trope Makers, Trope Codifier, and Ur-Example to the index, since unlike the things we're voting on whether we're removing, those are clearly Trope Tropes since they're meta concepts about the history of tropes.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 12th 2023 at 12:03:39 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass. What about Trope Namers? Is that a trope or an index?
Edited by FernandoLemon on Jun 12th 2023 at 5:21:34 AM
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Crown Description:
Trope Tropes is supposed to be about meta concepts about tropes, such as how they play out (Playing With A Trope), how they get started or fall out of usage and other concepts regarding the "lifespans" of tropes (Forgotten Trope, Dead Horse Trope, Trope Maker, etc.), and similar concepts instead of being about what happens with our pages for them, with what happens to our pages being covered by Administrivia instead. Despite this, the page lists Administrivia pages that discuss our pages instead of the concepts behind them, despite the Trope Tropes index describes trope tropes as being "about how tropes come into existence, live, mutate, evolve, and die". In addition, it was suggested to list the Playing With A Trope index as a sub-index (via a floatbox) instead of duplicating the list on the Trope Tropes page (these were determined to be actual Trope Tropes; the concern was redundancy). The following proposals were made:- What should be done about the pages whose presence on the index has been questioned?
- Should Playing With A Trope be listed as a sub-index instead of ways of playing with a trope being listed on Trope Tropes as well?
- Should the listings that are staying on Trope Tropes be sorted into separate folders? Currently, they are listed in a single folder.
To-do list:
I'd have put Misused, but since this is an index I think Needs Help is more fitting. Also, oldest version of the page on the Internet Archive
.
The problem: Trope Tropes is an index about "tropes about tropes", as the very short description mentions. Per the opening text:
Unfortunately, as the description alludes to, some of the listed entries do not fit this definition. Some, like Trope Decay, are suspected of being
Administrivia pages in disguise, and others, like the actual Administrivia section, just don't seem to fit at all. One big problem is that some entries are about tropes and their use in wiki concepts, mistakenly put on this index. Quoting GastonRabbit:
Possible solution: I propose cleaning the index's individual entries via crowner, similar to what was done with Administrivia.No Straight Examples Please and Administrivia.Definition Only Pages. I also propose moving Trope Decay itself to Administrivia.
What does everyone else think? Any other ideas or suggestions?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2023 at 1:17:58 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.