Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Aight time for something new off me... nope we're back in Skyrim. I had offered Rav this guy or Haknir to take and since he took Haknir, he's kindly left me this guy for an EP. At first I didn't think of him because of his prevalence in his guild's storyline but I then realised he does something else on the side of things. When the player joins the Thieves Guild after being indoctrinated by Brynjolf, he tells them of two major figureheads that can provide the player money, Vex and Delvin. Now Vex's magnificence is rather informed since literally all of the stories about her are completely offscreen and personality wise? She's quite frosty. But Delvin on the other hand...
Who is Delvin and what has he done?
A member of the guild who joined the Dark Brotherhood who left due to some unknown reason (he alludes to some betrayal when Mercer's ousted as a traitor?) ,who still has contact with the Brotherhood's leader Astrid, Delvin eventually returned to the Thieves Guild and made his way up to one of the top 4 representatives of the faction. Unlike the others who believe that the Guild's down ways is due to bad luck, Delvin thinks that some outside forces is effecting them (in which he's right due to the Thieves Guild questline ultimately being the Daedric quest for Nocturnal.) When the player meets Delvin for the first time, he'll respect their attitude if they admit that they could use help.
Whilst the Guild's questline is happening, you can talk to Delvin and receive missions from him. Compared to Vex's whose missions are more or less all just forms of burglary, Delvin has these 3 options for the player: rewriting business ledgers to conceal stolen shipments, pickpocketing people and striking cities by robbing over 500 gold's worth in items to send a message that the city is ripe for the Guild — noting with all of them to stick with the shadows.
After the Dragonborn completes enough quests in a major hold, Delvin will provide them a contact to gain the favour of to allow the Thieves' guild a major footing within the hold. The outcomes come with, able to barter stolen goods with a merchant in two of the holds, caches full of goods in each hold and having the means to use your status as a guild member to be able to bribe guards to lessen your bounty. As the player does more missions, Delvin will give them more unique missions, allowing the Guild to get it's footing in all 5 of the major holds of Skyrim — something which Delvin praises you for.
These special missions include:
- Stealing back an item for a Silversmith to gain his favour.
- Getting a family heirloom for a powerful family from a rival guild, also taking out the Guild since they murder their marks, setting a bad precedent for the business.
- Fabricate documents in a Jarl's palace to remove someone's implication of a murder and create them a new identity.
- Smuggle contraband onto a ship to frame the captain.
Other stuff Delvin does:
- Helps the Dark Brotherhood verify the authenticity of an amulet, which is revealed to be part of the Emperor's council.
- After the Dragonborn finishes the Dark Brotherhood questline, Delvin will provide services to fashion the Brotherhood a new sanctuary with all of the necessities.
- Wrote the book Shadowmarks to provide Guild members the knowledge on what markings on buildings mean for the business Here for the list.
- Take rare items from the Dragonborn that no one else would take for a hefty payment.
- Responsible for some of the members of the Guild to join through contacts.
- Can upgrade the player's sneak skill to the highest possible level trainer's can.
- Vouches for the player to become Guildmaster.
After the Thieves' Guild is back to full strength, Delvin will continuously provide jobs for the player, letting the Guild make it's mark out there, while also allowing the player easy money.
Is he magnificent?
Thinking it through? Yeah. Charm isn't a problem, Delvin's one of the most Affably Evil members of the guild and even when Mercer's betrayal is exposed, he still keeps to a calm demeanour and tells Vex to calm down. Delvin's the man to talk to in Skyrim's criminal underworld as he has an extensive reach in contacts and is shown to get communication from some of the most powerful people in the country.
Now... Delvin's input in the Thieves' Guild questline is... rather minimal. However the other half of trying to restore the Thieves Guild is through Delvin's special missions which allows Delvin to set his contacts to allow the Guild to get its grip on Skyrim. His missions are also more than just burglaries compared to Vex's. To quote the man himself on how he intends on using the Dragonborn's efforts.
Delvin: "Years ago, the Guild used to have a foothold in every major city in Skyrim. You wouldn't dare even lift an apple without checkin' with us. When things started goin' downhill around here, it became difficult to keep it all together. We lost fences, influential contacts and coin. It wasn't long before we lost what we depend on to survive... respect. By doin' these extra jobs and puttin' some fear into the people, we can take back the cities and start bein' taken seriously once again."
Dragonborn: "Take a city back? What's that mean?"
Delvin: "Thanks to Maven Black-Briar, we still have some pull in Riften. But get arrested in Whiterun and you'll be tossed right into the prisons. If we can gain the confidence of someone very influential who lives there by doing a unique job for them, we'd be able to have some leverage there too. The only way to get that special job is by doin' smaller ones in those cities until we catch their ear... then they'll contact me and we're off."
Is he a bastard?
Delvin's the higher up of a thief organisation and funded the Dark Brotherhood's new sanctuary which includes a torture chamber but we've had way worse and he's an Affably Evil guy, ironically amongst one of the friendliest in Skyrim. Nothing too bad or iffy from him to be concerned about.
Final Verdict?
What say we?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Showtime!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Delvin
i'm concerned about the slavery stuff with the Synths disqualifying Father
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Not the Eye
Z1-14 and Delvin
Gonna give ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to shepherd, while we never get to see how cruel king is, fact that only possible bastardly thing he does is throw Asshole Victim in dungeon and decides not to release him after everybody asks him to be their king dosen’t exactly scream bastard to me.
Showtime!
to the Shepherd for the same reasons. I meant to say that and then just forgot to vote
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Here’s a short one.
What’s The Work?
Scarface is one of the most influential crime movies. It stars Al Pacino as Antonio Montoya, a beat criminal from Cuba slowly rises into the crime syndicate through Miami, Florida as he descends into drugs and paranoia.
The Big Bad, Alejandro Sosa qualifies, now it’s time for another one.
Who is The Skull? What Does He Do?
- The Voiceless assassin of Alejandro Sosa, The Skull appears twice in the movie and never drops a calm, collected and ruthless disposition. Luring Omar Saurez into a helicopter, The Skull beats and murders the man by tossing off the helicopter to hang him for presumably being a police informant.
- The Skull appears once more in the finale when Tony goes on a war with Alejandro’ men inside his mansion. Sneaking into the area through the back, The Skull immediately murders Nick The Pig with a headshot without him even realizing it. The assassin immediately climbs up to where Tony is, sneaking up behind him as Tony has his Villainous Breakdown at the top of the staircase, shooting and slaughtering Sosa’s men below. Without a single moment to spare, The Skull releases a round of a shotgun in Tony’ back, killing him instantly and causing him to fly off the ledge to the fountain, the movie ending as The Skull casually descends down the stairs.
Is he Magnificent?
He’s not charming, but the Skull is a cunning and completely able to do what he does good, taking the drop on both Nick and Tony without even being seen and killing Antonio by the end, successful in his plans.
Is he a Bastard?
He’s Sosa’s ruthless assassin introduced beating and hanging a man in a helicopter due to (possibly) being a police informant.
Verdict?
to Delvin and the Skull.
Caesar
Yes to Delvin and having brought him up, yes to Skull, good work!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Not the Eye
to Skull
Yes to Delvin and the Skull, even though he's short on characterization.
It's still amazing I got a version of Tony Montana up considering how infamous his downfall in the movie is.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I have a wacky candidate from a wacky cartoon!
What's the work?
Bye Bye Bluebeard is a Looney Tunes short starring Porky Pig, Bluebeard the killer, and an unnamed mouse, the last of whom is our candidate.
Who's the mouse and what do they do?
The mouse is a rodent living in the wall of Porky Pig's house. While Porky "exercises" by eating a huge feast, the mouse wants in on the meal and sneaks up onto the table using a flowerpot disguise, slathers Porky's finger in butter, puts it between slices of bread, and starts chewing. Naturally, Porky is none too pleased at the intruder and chases him back to his hole, but soon freaks out when a radio report mentions Bluebeard the killer is at large.
Porky barricades his home to protect himself, but the mouse decides to use his fear to his advantage. Disguising himself as Bluebeard (with an adorable Evil Laugh and a kitchen knife), he scares Porky badly enough to literally make him jump out of his skin and promise him anything he wants if he doesn't kill him—including a huge meal. The mouse happily digs in, but the fun is spoiled when the radio reveals Bluebeard is 6 feet 11 inches tall and weighs 350 pounds—and the mouse is only 3 inches high.
Realizing the ruse, Porky is none too pleased and continues his quest to get rid of the mouse, but inadvertently reveals the real Bluebeard was hiding under the dining room table the whole time. Bluebeard ties Porky to a rocket and starts to dig into the feast himself, but notices the mouse is also eating from his plate. The mouse is still wearing his disguise and claims to be Bluebeard's conscience, but Bluebeard wonders why he's outside his body and tries to eat him. The mouse escapes this fate twice, once covering himself in tabasco sauce to give Bluebeard a hot reception, and continues to avoid the killer by hiding in increasingly small places and pieing him in the face.
After the fifth pie to the face in a row, Bluebeard gives up on killing the mouse and turns his attention to Porky, who's managed to escape the rocket. Bluebeard builds a guillotine to kill him instead, and the mouse has a crisis of conscience and decides to save Porky. Just when Bluebeard is about to pull the lever, the mouse comes in with a big steaming plate of lit bombs and calls him to dinner. Bluebeard mistakes them for popovers and eats them all, only realizing his mistake when his insides start smoking. He runs to the medicine cabinet and mixes everything inside, but it's too late, and Bluebeard the killer explodes. Porky is grateful to the mouse for saving his life and they're last seen eating happily together.
Is he Charming and Magnificent?
I'd say so. The little rodent runs circles around both Porky and Bluebeard, using his trickery to utmost advantage and his size to escape when plans are foiled. Upon hearing the broadcast he immediately sets off to disguise himself, and when Bluebeard tries to eat him he uses every trick in the book to escape, diving into kitchenware, furniture, and the mousehole. He also uses Bluebeard's gluttony to his advantage by blowing him up, and has a really cute voice as provided by Mel Blanc.
A bastard? Too much?
The mouse just wants a free meal, but he's not above impersonating a dreaded killer to do it—and he torments Porky hilariously by sharpening his knife to a hair's width and kills Bluebeard by feeding him bombs. That said, he's not heartless and saves Porky's life in the end, and Bluebeard, despite moments of slapstick, is much worse.
Verdict?
A thumbs-up from me! (If the mouse does have a name feel free to let me know.)
Edited by lalalei2001 on Feb 3rd 2024 at 3:34:17 PM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
for Z1-14, Delvin, The Skull and the mouse.
for the Sheperd.
The mouse
A Child from the Stars
for the Mouse and the Skull.
Jogo
Delvin, Skull and the Mouse
Never Ask Me For Anything Ever Again
It's been three days and there were no objections, so here is the writeup for General Grievous from Star Wars REDONE.
- Star Wars REDONE: General Grievous becomes much more of a threat here than in canon, thanks to his intelligence and greater sense of honor. Now serving as the leader of the Confederacy and The Dragon to Darth Sidious/Sheev Palpatine, Grievous is first established as being a Jedi-killing machine who also leverages his nonhuman origins to sway thousands of nonhuman worlds into joining the Confederacy, reduced the Confederacy prior leadership to Authority in Name Only, and above all else, wishes to kill as many Jedi as possible. On Nelvaan, he hacks R2-D2 to trail and easily capture Obi-Wan Kenobi, whom he then subjects to torture solely to break him, while also gaining the genuine respect of Jango Fett with their mutual hatred for the Jedi. When Mace Windu shows up with a hundred Jedi to rescue Obi-Wan from Nelvaan, Grievous eagerly fights and cuts down dozens of them in spite of being outnumbered, and makes the Jedi's victory at the Battle of Nelvaan come at an especially heavy price. Near the end of the Clone Wars, Grievous spearheads the attack on Coruscant, where he fakes the kidnapping of Palpatine and effortlessly kills an entire platoon of Clone Troopers, then leaves Palpatine for dead on the Invisible Hand while it is crashing onto the planet, who only survives thanks to Anakin's piloting skills. Later on, Grievous correctly suspects Sidious of planning to betray him during the Battle of Kashyyyk, and plans his escape from the battle as a contingency, only being interrupted at the last minute by Obi-Wan Kenobi in a duel that ends up being his last. After Sidious confirms that he intended to betray Grievous, Grievous decides to go down fighting against an army of Clones, and in his dying moments, reveals to Obi-Wan the true identity of the Sith Lord the Jedi have been searching for, and dies while gloating to Obi-wan that he achieved the one thing that brings him solace: "a future with no Jedi".
Edited by TimeLordVictorious on Feb 3rd 2024 at 10:59:54 AM
"Shout, shout, let it all out These are the things I can do without, come on I'm talking to you, come on!" -Tears For Fears
Goku Black
the mouse
Who up pizza timeing they pizza?
Writeup for Elsewhere!D. B. Cooper:
- Elsewhere (2017): D. B. Cooper is the thief who stole thousands from Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 305, transported to an alternate world where he keeps all the same thievery but with a Deadpan Snarker demeanour. He helps Amelia to defeat Lord Kragen but sneaks away from the group during the battle to steal thousands from a castle vault before escaping. Eventually Amelia finds him and brings him back into the group, and when they arrive back on Earth and are captured by the Government, he is able to completely avoid any psychological examination and even manages to pit his psychiatrists against each other.
Rejected UAC Marine
The Skull, aka Terminator before Terminator was a thing.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Skull and Mouse
Not the Eye
to the Mouse
It's past the deadline, so here's the writeup:
- The mouse from "Bye Bye Bluebeard" wants to eat the huge feast Porky Pig has prepared. Rebuffed in his initial attempt, when a radio report mentions Bluebeard the killer is at large, he disguises himself as Bluebeard to threaten Porky into giving him food. When a followup report states Bluebeard's height as 6 foot 11, he escapes Porky and watches as the real Bluebeard attempts to kill Porky with a rocket. Wanting in as Bluebeard eats the feast, the mouse pretends to be his conscience and cleverly avoids being eaten by covering himself in tabasco sauce, then uses his size to escape the killer and foil him repeatedly. When Porky escapes and Bluebeard builds a guillotine to finish him off, the mouse decides to save Porky and gives Bluebeard a plateful of lit bombs, making the killer explode—and in gratitude, Porky lets the mouse dine with him freely.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Bump
"No running in the halls!"
I'll be honest, I'm not too big on Shaun yet. But whip up a EP, let's see how he stands.
Oh, and![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
Munch.