Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
The Yggdrasil Cretin
Ok, did some trimming, hopefully this is better now.
Housepets!'s "Call o' th' Wild": Gale is a fierce mountain lion and the most scarily competent antagonist in this comedic webcomic. Formerly a friend of the wolf Miles and his family, as well as their improvised medic, she would have an argument with Miles, feeling betrayed by him, resulting in the wolves leaving the forest. Having remained as the undisputed apex predator, alongside her cub Pueblo, when Gale sees the Wolf Pack returning to her territory to go camping, the cougar sets off to have her revenge on Miles and the others through a mix of feral strength and feline cunning, all while mentoring her son. Capturing Miles' family through ambushes, traps, hand-to-hand combat and even seduction, she then confronts her old friend in her cave and, after an honorable duel, uses Miles' bluff against him and overpowers the wolf. Gale only allows Miles and his pack to live upon finding out that joining human society is an option for her and Pueblo, by which point she becomes a successful, self-made businesswoman in less than a year. Wealthy, feared as ever and planning to join medical school, Gale is now willing to patch things up with her old wolf friends.
Excellent!
The Yggdrasil Cretin
Thank you, Vincent Volaju from Trigun
Yes to Dignam and Harley.
Here is my last Dukes candidate except possible reposts of some of the others.
Character
Kate is the leader of a hijacking ring who spends years planning to steal ten million dollars from several armored cars in a single day. She flies over armored cars in her helicopter and drops bags of oil on their windshields to force them off the road. Her accomplices then pull up to the trucks and threaten the drivers into coming out with a bazooka. They take the drivers prisoner (locking them up but not hurting them beyond a Tap on the Head), while Kate uses a hoist to fly the trucks away.
Kate is careful not to get overconfident when things start out well for her gang and doesn’t reveal how she got the armored car schedules even to her own men.She is annoyed when her men let Bo and Luke go after holding them at gunpoint during their amateru sleuth investigation and feels killing them would have been safer. As the Dukes close in on her, Kate decides to split the money and disband the gang rather than risk pushing her luck. She is only found and caught because the Dukes have access to ultralights that they use to search from the sky and climb onto the roof of her hideout to jump down and surprise and overpower her after she pulls out a gun one the rest of her gang is overpowered.
Possible mitigating circumstances
She is normally chatty and at ease with her men but does yell angrily at one of them for losing a watch with his initials at the robbery and then for not killing the Dukes while retrieving the watch. Therefore, she may not check the box of being composed even when things aren't going her way but then again she's showing anger rather than fear and is remaining focused on their objectives as she gives orders meant to counter those mistakes.
Gonna have to start thinking on the Dukes stuff with it all laid out and as a heads up I'm not sure I'll be able to get to the batch today. If someone else wants to tag in that's cool, otherwise I'll do my best!
I don’t think I am going to repost Alabama Jones looking at her in comparison with all the competition but would like opinions about Percy and Hector & Ward and Lavinia, who I do think might deserve reconsideration.
Edited by Melinda on Mar 18th 2023 at 7:45:29 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
skylor
Alrighty... expect some more posts both here and on CM from myself, Rav and Lighty. We've agreed Alonzo Harris in no way counts for this trope but on a related note there's lots to talk about from the expanded franchise. I'll be abridging the summary section so I don't take up everybody's day here...
What's the work?
Training Day is a TV sequel to the film. 15 years after the death of Alonzo Harris, LA has become a nightmare with the fallout of his case forcing the police to release all the suspects he'd arrested thanks to his unlawful means. Young agent Kyle Craig is assigned as a mole by Deputy Chief Joy Lockhart to look into suspected corruption of Detective Frank Rourke... a stellar investigator whose dark path has led to fears he'll become the next Alonzo. Said Anti-Hero makes the first of our posts from this one.
Who is Frank? What has he done?
Born to a proud line of robbers, after Frank's father was killed in a botched job by the regretful, friendly Sheriff, the lawman took Frank in to raise him right and set him down a different path. Not one to take any bullshit, Frank has spent his career keeping the streets safe even if it means planting evidence, intimidating suspects and working with lesser criminals to bring down greater evil. In the past, Frank adopted his current team member Rebecca Lee by saving the then-seven-year-old from a vile sex trafficker.
When his partner and best friend fellow Detective Billy Craig is killed and the death swept under the rug, Frank seemingly lets the case go while stewing and gathering evidence over the next 13 years. Taking the chance when Lockhart orders Kyle to investigate him by using the younger man's relationship with his father, Frank sets about fighting crime while seeking justice for his slain friend.
Throughout the series, Frank masterfully eliminates the various Villains of the Week, in the first episode cheerfully allying with an Affably Evil cartel leader to set up a deal and eradicate the man's far more ruthless rival; setting up a professional assassin to appear as a snitch to force her off his tail (even showing attraction to her resilience when she uses his own gun to kill the man he sold her out to); and taking revenge on the local Yakuza when they kill his friend and informant; even forcing a councilman to become his snitch on Lockhart herself by blackmailing him.
When Lockhart tries to make a deal with an inmate who claims to have killed a man Frank executed in a vigilante style gunfight and he's forced to clear his name, Frank winds up making a deal with the crook to save his girlfriend and daughter, having him recount his statement and helping the man kill the corrupt casino owner he stole from while saving his family. The rest of those who try to stand in Frank's way fall similarly, the crooked agent who's been operating by setting up criminals to die in gun sales and then reselling them likewise being arrested.
At one point offering to make a deal with a thief who reminds him of his own father, when the man's killed Frank makes a point of guiding and protecting his son through the jail sentence he's handed, seeing himself in the young man. Continuing to clean up the streets, Frank catches wind of a project being covered by the police tangled into Billy's murder. Intimidating various suspects, Frank is led to discover a safety deposit box containing info on "Leviathan": a gun and dope circle composed of crooked law agents and cartel bosses, even the CIA. When one vengeful suspect he'd interrogated sets him up to be killed, Frank allies with Lockhart and kills off the hit squad, the two finally forming an uneasy trust and respect for each other.
Going rogue into Mexico alone, Frank calls upon the aid of two female criminals, selecting them as his most brilliant former opponents and offers them the proceeds of a bank robbery so he can hit a cartel zone for the safety deposit box the keys Billy looked into can open. Captured while trying to make off with the contents of the box, Frank resists the effects of the serum he's given during interrogation and manages to turn the crooked CIA agent and capo on each other before his crew arrive and bust him out. Taking down the cartel in a gunfight, he ID's and tracks down Alonzo's former henchman Tim Wallace, a ranking member of Project Leviathan.
Discovering Wallace decided to move up in the criminal underworld after Alonzo's death and began killing off his cohorts to keep all the profits for himself, Wallace admits at gunpoint he murdered Billy for finding out too much about his case. When Kyle prepares to shoot Wallace for what he's done Frank draws to save the younger man the burden of killing an unarmed man. Sadly the series got cancelled with Paxton's passing, the group ending the only season heading off to keep digging into the Leviathan case.
Actions and personality?
Honestly, Frank is an amazing foil to Alonzo: he's corruptive but actually cares about his subordinates; he'll make deals with criminals but he's actually genuinely fighting worse ones doing so; he makes sure to bulk his pay by pocketing money confiscated during busts but he'll share it with the people he's looking out for. Unlike Alonzo who just sucks all the life out of the Jungle he can, when Frank says he'll help the ghetto he actually does, beating a drug dealer for hurting a kid who wouldn't be his runner and later giving the same boy $300k to start a college fund.
On the same note, he's got the same bombastic kind of personality as Alonzo but while he's crude he's not an actual bigot and when the above kid calls out one of his remarks as racist, Frank just laughs it off with a "No one likes a smartass." It's a lot like Billy Butcher where he'll make crass remarks but when he actually interacts with people of color actual prejudice very much disgusts him and he's quick to hand over a building developer trying to kill off the people trying to stop his heroin operation in a black neighborhood.
Another great way he contrasts Alonzo is how he actually controls situations rather than just bullying his way into making it look like he can. He's able to read the moves of one thief as the man's a father and Frank remembers how his own dad operated and knows his limits: when his girlfriend Holly is held at gunpoint he admits he's not thinking straight and defers to Kyle to be a Guile Hero and come up with a plan. He knows what makes people tick and how to play for the results he needs.
Mitigating factors?
Way more than "bastard" enough, I'll just mention Frank does get outplayed once by the criminal Lina but his response to respect her for killing her boss he sold her off to with his weapon so he can't track her and he later charms her into joining his diversion robbery crew, Lina enjoying working with him so much she happily returns to get into a firefight with the cartel with him.
Verdict?
A keeper for our man Paxton, the late, great legend.
Skylor and Kaye both sound like a yes. Now, let me finally get this done after an exhausting week. The One Piece Complete Monster page put a filler candidate down at the bottom with non canon movies and specials, so I figure we should do the same here for the MB page and put Jonathan with the movie characters at the bottom rather that with the manga characters.
- G-8 Arc: Vice Admiral Johnathan is the beloved and fatherly leader of the G-8 Marine Fortress who love of fishing and chess prove invaluable when the Straw Hat Pirates literally fall right into his base. Knowing those under his command by heart, Jonathan allows the Straw Hat to take on disguises to uncover them and lead them into a series of deadly ambushes that only fail from outside interference. The crew eventually reunite and nearly escape, but Jonathan lures them back in with gold he stole from them and has them dead to rights had a smug military Inspector not ruined his final traps. With one last trick up his sleeve, Jonathan lures into low tides and beaching and only further glory seeking from the Inspector allows them to finally escape. Happy that the Straw Hats united his men, Jonathan nonchalantly lays all the blame on the Inspector and leaves the arc fully contented.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Frank
How many candidates you 3 looking at for MB and CM?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Four for CM planned, MB will take some deliberation, about seven potentials.
Not the Eye
to Frank
Ultimate Moral Compass
Frank
Harley, Skylar, Frank.
to Frank
Based on the EP, to Frank. Yeah, Alonzo proves to definitely have all those flaws that keep him from this. Ambiguous as to how truly righteous he actually is as well.
Doesn't make him any less of a great villain though.
One of Bill Paxton's final works. Been six damn years now. God rest all the more.
Frank.
Got an animated movie candidate I've been meaning to get too. I just had to watch both the English and Soviet dub first.
Treasure Island (1988) is an animated adaptation of the book. Other than a few characters being Adapted Out, and everyone subjected to Character Exaggeration, and its use of Looney Tunes style slapstick it's pretty faithful (if cartoonishly wacky) to the book; telling of how a boy named Jim Hawkins got his hands on a map to the treasure of Captain Flink, and soon joins an expedition for the treasure. Joining him are Squire John Trelawney, Captain Alexander Smollet, and Dr. David Chadwick Livesey...and the surviving pirates of Captain Flint's crew, now led by John Silver.
Notably the Soviet adaptation also includes live action musical segments, providing the backstory, and PSA's about drinking, smoking and exercise. Teaching the viewers of how "Rum" and "Death" mean the same thing to you now.
Anyways, I'm bringing up this movie's take on John Silver.
Who is Silver ? What does he do ?
Despite his un-intimidating appearance and short build, Silver is a manipulative, pragmatic and ruthless pirate, and a surviving former member of Flint's crew. Described as a "nasty pirate who feigns being nice, successfully", Silver is the de-facto leader of the crew when Jim and his companions go on their expedition. Previously, Silver led an unsuccessful expedition, with another cremate, Ben Gunn supposedly knowing where the treasure is buried. When led on a wild goose chase, Silver and the crew leave Gunn behind on the island for the next few years. The only other survivor is Billy Bones, who previously stole the map from Flint.
When Silver is actually introduced, he approaches Jim, Livesey and Trelawney, already knowing what they're up to. Offering to be their humble cook, Silver assembles the crew himself for the expedition, consisting of pirates ostensibly loyal to him, while performatively brown-nosing the more hotheaded and pompous Smollet. With pretty much the whole crew at his command, Silver controls the pirates through intimidation and pragmatism ("Hands...Your head has no price on it because it never had any brains. Do not rush things.") planning to mutiny once they get the treasure.
Unknown to them, Jim heard the pirates' scheming and warned Smollet, the Squire and Livesey, who opt to not let the pirates know that they know. When they reach the island, Silver talks Smollet into letting him lead a group to shore, and ends up pursuing Jim when he goes to the island alone. Silver leaves a few pirates aboard to keep an eye on the heroes, effectively holding them hostage while they get the treasure. While Jim meets Ben Gunn, Livesey sneaks Smollet and Trelawney to the island, rushing to the island while the pirates are distracted. When the heroes take the Island's fort, Silver approaches them with a call for parlay, offering to spare them in exchange for the map. Smollet refuses Silver's terms, prompting Silver opts to siege.
While the siege itself was an Epic Fail (most of the pirates are total buffoons, and the heroes are varied degrees of chads), Silver is approached by Livesey off camera; while Jim goes out and steals the ship back, Livesey gives Silver the map and the fort in exchange for their safety. While Silver agrees to the terms, he's suspicious that something is up; unknown to Silver, Gunn found the treasure after he was stranded and moved it to a different location. When Jim heads back to the fort, he's surrounded by Silver and his crew. When Jim reveals he sabotaged them, the pirates call for his blood, but Silver stands up for Jim, threatening to kill anyone who tries their luck, sharpening his knife on the lead mutineers belt and cutting off said pirates moustache.
Silver quickly makes a deal with Jim - he saves Jim's life, and Jim bails him out if things go south. When the pirates try to oust Silver from command, Silver quickly spins the situation in his favor; he has the map, and the fort, while his crew lost him the ship, and Silver might just cut his losses and leave them behind. This gets the pirates back on his side, as they resume their treasure hunt, with Jim as their captive. As they reach the spot the treasure's supposedly buried, they find it's already been looted. The pirates nearly turn on Jim and Silver, but luckily the rest of the heroes get the jump on them. As the pirates try to flee, Livesey corners and belittles them for those smoking habits, and the pirates die of lung cancer on the spot.
Realizing and accepting he's beat, Silver asks what becomes of him, and is told by Livesey he'll get a fair trial. Silver also reacts with amusement when he realizes Gunn outsmarted him, and leaves with the rest of the crew back to England. In the English dub, Silver is mentioned to have escaped after his arrest - presumably because of his deal with Jim - and went on to start a new life with a cut of the treasure he was able to steal.
Mitigating Qualities ?
Silver is certainly as much of a bastard as his other incarnations; leader of a band of pirates, out to steal the treasure of their deceased captain, and mutiny against the heroes, while planning to kill them, and previously abandons Gunn for leading them on a wild goose chase.
As for magnificence, Silver is arguably the smartest character in the movie, tied with Livesey and maybe Gunn. He's also the only competent pirate of the lot, and the only character to not suffer any real indignities. Every crew mate is ostensibly loyal to Silver, with him being the one really controlling the expedition, keeping his crew in check through intimidation and pragmatism.
Even when he's outsmarted, it's not a real setback, as Silver quickly adapts the situation to his favor; when he learns Jim stole back the ship, and that his crew tries to mutiny ? Silver flips the script, letting the pirates know he had the map, and they lost the ship, and he's willing to leave them high and dry. When he is given the Fort and map by Livesey, he is correctly suspicious, and reacts to cheeky amusement when he learns Gunn stole the treasure already.
Despite being described as a "nasty pirate who feigns being nice", he has a sense of honor. He offers to spare the heroes in return for the map, and never double crosses them when given the fort. While he doesn't have the same bond with Jim that other versions do, Silver still stands up for him against the other pirates, even when he learns how much trouble Jim caused him.
When foiled and arrested, Silver accepts his defeat rather gracefully, simply asking what becomes of him. It helps that the English dub reveals he ultimately escaped with a cut of the treasure anyways.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Goku Black
long john silver and frank
Yes to Frank and Silver, though I feel I should add this since it's basically mandatory when bringing up the movie.
To Long John Silver
Yes to another Silver!
Woagh
Oh hey, i was thinking if this version hits! to Long John Silver.
Ultimate Moral Compass
LJS
Long John Silver.
Sure to Harley and Skylor