Complete Monster Cleanup

Okay, there's one example from Kekkaishi that I find somewhat questionable:

• Kaguro is the most sadistic and depraved member of the Kokuburou. Prior to joining the Kokuburou, he was known as Genichiro Kuroda, and massacred several swordsmen in order to become stronger. After joining, Kagurou and his men attempt to negotiate with the powerful exorcists who protect Karasumori, known as Kekkaishi, by intimidating the children and injuring some of the school staff in order to make them surrender territory to Kokuburou. When the Kekkaishi refuse to surrender, Kagurou then brutally wounds one of the Kekkaishi, Gen Shishio, and then kills some of his subordinates who took one of the Kekkaishi as a hostage during the fight against the Kekkaishi because their "lack of aesthetic", falsifying their death reports after the battle is done. During the second fight, he then taunts and brutally kills Gen Shishio after Gen rejects his offers, and after returning to the Kokuburou's lair, he then massacres the the minions of the scientist, Aihi, and then proceeds to taunt her about her relationship with humans before impaling her and leaving her to die. In the end, Kagurou is an irredeemable beast of a man who loves to torture and kill his enemies in order to gain more power.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen the anime and know Kaguro is a scumbag. However, this entry basically suggests that Kaguro only cares about killing and getting stronger. However, there is one scene near the end of his arc that brings this into question. He attempts to pull a We Can Rule Together on Yoshimori, but it doesn't work and Yoshimori responds like this:

Yoshimori: I don't get it. You say all this stuff about getting strong and coming over to your side. Are you really that starved for a friend? I think you just don't want to be alone anymore.

Unless it's a case of Good Cannot Comprehend Evil, this seems to imply that Kaguro has grown to realise that Being Evil Sucks but he continues his life of bloodshed and quest for power anyway because it's the only life he knows. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

Before I vote, I am going to link Kaguro's ep here.

I mean, that person didn't list the implication that he's Trapped in Villainy, and others have been removed simply because that trope was implied rather than confirmed.

I'll refrain due to ignorance, but I personally am just wondering if all 4 KM are also taken into account in the anime?

Okay, I finished watching the excellent anime Deca-Dance.... and Turkey is completely accurate in general. Hugin and Munin also seem to be accurate in terms of crimes....and all 3 three must be firmly cut out. We will discuss Turkey separately, but for now:

• Hugin and Munin are the chief content administrators of Deca-Dence, deeming those that interfere with their narrative, "bugs", who they would torture before either executing them or send them to the Bugs Correctional Facility where they must shovel down feces created by Gadoll for decades, driving many into insanity, while the excrement gets converted into Oxyone that they forcibly inject into their prisoners. Among their many victims are Kaburagi's team, with them killing Mikey and imprisoning the rest before forcing Kaburagi to hunt down players, before sending him to the Bugs Correctional Facility when he disobeys orders. When Kaburagi and the prisoners rebel, Hugin and Munin send their forces to kill off all the prisoners, while they track down Kaburagi and Natsume to the factory where they created the Gadoll before sending them to Deca-Dence, and attempt to kill them with Hugin personally strangling Natsume. When Kaburagi saves Natsume, Hugin meets up with Munin where they active the force field's spatial compression to annihilate all life on Deca-Dence and restart their narrative, an act they've tried and succeeded in doing several times before.

The first problem is that they are very strong cogs. In fact, all their actions boil down to the fact that they are doing what the System instructed them to do. The important thing is that the creation of Gadols and the Correctional Facility for Prison Errors is not their business. In fact, it is more likely that it was the System that created such a regime, and Hugin and Munin simply supported it and sent errors to the institution. Kaburagi even says in episode 11 that it is the System that controls the Gadols. And honestly half of their crimes, if not most, are theirs? They do what the System instructed them to do. They hunt down the bugs, execute them or send them to re-education, although sending a hit squad to destroy all the bugs in the institution when they start a rebellion is unpleasant, again it is quite appropriate, considering that they are tasked with getting rid of all the bugs that threaten the System. And yes Hugin strangles Natsumi, which is unpleasant. But again, everything they do does not go beyond the orders of the System. They never commit atrocities that were not ordered by the System or were their own.

In the finale, the System itself even calls Munin (that is, itself, but that comes later) and Hugin as its puppets, who simply carry out its will. And in fact. All that Hugin and Munin did was simply do what the System itself wanted. And the anime itself and the characters do not try to blame Hugin and Munin for the fact that they created the Gadols and that the institution is so terrible. Moreover, these places are run by completely different people and there is nothing to indicate that Hugin and Munin somehow had a hand.

And with Munin there will now be such a huge fatality. Honestly.....it’s not at all clear how G watched the last episode, but he harshly turned Munin’s character 180 degrees. In general, Munin is the System itself. It’s quite strange that she calls Munin, that is, herself, an extension of the will... herself? Well, okay, let's say she means that Munin is something like her avatar and, as she herself says, she has no form as such. And yes, Munin/System, it’s she, not him, as the proposal said. In general, it explains the process in which mistakes and those who try to destroy them create a link that forms a single chain of the system. When the system accumulates enough data, it automatically reboots and this cycle is repeated for many years and that even now the battle is predetermined by the System. And no, this does not automatically mean that Deca-Dance was destroyed several times... and certainly not because they rebelled against the System. She says nothing at all and doesn’t even hint that anyone has ever rebelled against her. And she notes that the events currently taking place are simply part of a natural process.

She basically tries to convince Kaburagi that there is no point in trying to defeat Omega, but he replies that his actions are his own will and that he will not give up, telling the System not to interfere with him and just observe the actions. And guess what? She says that regardless of the outcome, Kaburagi will die and sadly says that she regrets that he will not see the changed world. And gives him full administrator rights. That's all. Kaburagi uses them and defeats Omega. And that’s it, as soon as Deca-Dance changes, she is completely satisfied with it and that’s it. I don’t know, this should be perceived as her “redemption”; her conversation with Kaburagi shows that she is not so much evil and malicious, but simply doing what she was created for and what she considers necessary and right for everyone. In general, after the finale, she cannot there may even be thoughts about Munin in relation to CM.

The last thing I will say is that when Munin/System informs the population of Deka-Danse about the shield compression, she not only sounds somewhat friendly, specifically thanking Minato and his team for getting the job done, noting that protocol requires all users to leave the game . Even the destruction of Deca-Dance is not as terrible as it sounds. Although when Minato asks what he and his team should do, she simply notes that their work is complete and that the company should make rational decisions. Although they have a good chance to escape, which is what Minato tried to suggest to Kaburagi. That is, the System is not actively trying to kill them all, but is simply carrying out its protocol. And yes, when Munin and Hugin decide to merge and activate the shield compressions, Hugin notes that his work is complete and merges with Munin. And what happened to him after is unclear. And yes, there was no battle between Kaburagi and Munin in the finale. And even more so, there was no “murder” of Munin. And the fact that Hugin notes that he completed the work, exactly what Munin applied to Minato and his team once again firmly emphasizes his dedication to the System.

So yes, cut them out firmly and decisively. After watching, it became firmly clear that they are infinitely far from the trope. Turkey turned out to be worse in terms of morality than all of them combined. It’s just not clear how they could be suggested after watching the anime.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Mar 6th 2024 at 1:58:56 AM

Wait, if Munin is the system, then couldn't Munin still have agency?

The post also describes how Munin is more of a Well-Intentioned Extremist who willingly gives up in the end.

Ah, well then. Cut both.

The fact that she is a System does not in any way affect her freedom of action. There is nothing to indicate that she cannot choose. Even though she is an artificial intelligence, in the anime itself cyborgs have complete freedom of action. I am sure that if Munin wanted to go beyond the scope of her program, nothing would have stopped her from doing so.

By the way, yes, this suits her too, thank you. In fact, she sincerely strives to ensure that similar disasters that almost destroyed humanity do not happen again. And when there is a peaceful solution that not only prevents another catastrophe from happening, but also allows everyone to live peacefully, she is more than happy with it. Although I wouldn't say that she just gave up. She gave Kaburagi administrator rights and allowed him to change the situation, allowing him to demonstrate his point.

Even though the German duo and Hugin and Mooney were garbled and they all 4 as well as Turkey are left out, thankfully I'm more than happy to vouch that El Sueno and the trio of Commander Extranjeros from Ghost Recon Wildlands make an absolute difference and that G Overall he described them accurately. The only thing El Sueno's entry needs to be rewritten a bit. The point is that we don't see the grave. I completed the game 100 percent, visited all regions, but did not find a single grave anywhere. Even if they are there somewhere, if it is not made clear that these could be people who died at the hands of Santi Blanca, then their mere existence does not automatically mean that these are the graves of people killed by El Suen.

But even without them, it is easy to establish a pattern of thousands of lives destroyed by the cartel. Throughout the game we see numerous towering corpses, we see the mutilated corpses of those who were tortured (their jaws are even torn), in one of the story missions they invade a village and kill the entire population and we see at least 7 corpses, there is even a small house with 8-10 calves and the game makes it clear that this is the work of the cartel and, therefore, El Sueno himself. And yes, in one of the cutscenes, Bowman directly notes that he killed 7,000 people, kidnapped another 12,000 people and missing another 17,000 people (and yes, the numbers are accurate, as G stated). All the other crimes of El Sueno are indeed in the game, they are attached to him and we understand that all the evil of Santi Blanca goes back to El Sueno. And yes, it undermines any redeeming qualities it might have had. So yes, he is an easy and solid CM.

What about the commanders of Los Extranjeros, they are all fine. Dante Cruzar is an extremely vile and nightmare type, definitely a very easy keeper, but Tomas Ortega and Luis Rocha are also great fits and all of their evilness can be seen or felt. Regarding Rocha, he has much more character than what is said in the sentences. We never see him gloat and the closest thing is that he is bloodthirsty, but in return? He is described as cold and ruthless, like a machine, he tends to operate from the shadows and manipulate events, he comes up with a very clever move, specifically placing over 20 members of a covert operations unit in the jungle, with camouflage invisible even to radar with several soldiers with mobile jammers who would easily kill the insurgents while intimidating the population. In the last mission with him, he is directly called cunning and his attempt to escape is shown. In general, other people's descriptions and his actions more than give him a vibrant character, despite the fact that he never speaks. And although we don’t really see his slavery, the impact on civilians is felt and all the operations in the region aimed at preventing slavery. So I think there are enough consequences here. But in general, yes, all 4 have meaning and it’s just that El Sueno’s entry needs to be rewritten a little. And yes, the image of El Sueno can also be safely returned.

Alright, thanks for checking that Ghal. Move the Deca-dence qualifies to the main former cms section and restore the other guys

Wait, you never mentioned why you don’t think Turkey qualifies.

Cut Hugin and Munin

Cut them both.

I have a request: since we've enstablished that Resurrection of Doom is non-canon to the Roger Rabbit movie shall we maybe remove any Baron Von Rotten reference or else in the Judge Doom's page ?

That's not for this thread....

Theirs also not really anything wrong with putting non Canon incarnations on a character page if their the same guy.

Edited by miraculous on Mar 7th 2024 at 10:04:53 AM

… is there a reason someone now seems to be undoing the quotes to change to italics in “The Shadow”? It’s a short work and even listed as such on Andersen’s creator page. I’m not sure who Braz is or why they undid it but this doesn’t look correct.

Libraryseraph:Thanks a lot. I am very grateful that my work is appreciated.

Master N:Everything is fine guy, no one is cutting Turkey out. I made it clear that we will discuss he. By the way, since you seem interested, will you vote? And speaking of Turkey.

• Turkey is among the many cyborgs sent to the Bugs Correctional Facility, where he would take advantage of being Donatello's second-in-command to bully those weaker than him. Fearing that Kaburagi's rebellion might get him killed, Turkey collaborates with Hugin and Munin in sending the game police to slaughter the prisoners on the condition that they pardon his crimes, uncaring of the number of deaths they bring while manipulating Sarkozy into helping him cause the massacre. When Sarkozy gets fatally wounded in the crossfire, Turkey gleefully admits to using Sarkozy before leaving him to die while he attempts to escape the facility alone.

The main problem is that he's not bad enough. All he has is just betrayal and that’s it. There are no other significant crimes to cement his evil. And although manipulations with Sarkozu are unpleasant, this is very little and even the manipulations themselves are not particularly bad. And even his betrayal is not so terrible, because the fact is that he plays a very weak role in it. Yes, he informs Hugin and Munin about the riot....and that’s it. After this, he is completely passive and just stands on the sidelines, and then simply tries to run away when Donatello destroys the guards. Now one would think that his betrayal would get him out. But as already mentioned, he does not play a big role in it. Turkey sincerely believes that there is no point in resisting the System and that if they resist, they will all die. Hugin and Munin are known for executing anyone who makes a mistake, so it's obvious that when they find out about the uprising they immediately decide to just kill them all. This makes them terrible as much as it is just part of their job. And honestly, considering how much trouble the rebellion started to cause, Hugin and Munin would have found out anyway, quite quickly, and they would have sent guards to kill them anyway. By and large, the main thing that Turkey did was an attempt to gain the favor of the System and, as he himself said, “a ticket to the upper world.” In other words, he was simply trying to save himself and ensure a normal life. He is not the key, much less the active reason why massacre is generally possible.

Given the murderous nature of Hugin and Munin regarding mistakes, Turkey understood that as soon as they learned of the uprising they would immediately send their troops to brutally suppress the rebellion. Thus, sooner or later the administrators would find out and try to kill everyone involved in the bugs. And this is where Turkey loses any chance of becoming a CM, because in fact, without him, Hugin and Munin would still have tried to destroy the rebellion, all he did was just tell them earlier and try to switch to “victorious” side. It doesn't help that, as mentioned earlier, as soon as the uprising is put down, he just watches and is completely detached. What finally finishes it off is that it lacks any finishing touches, as already mentioned. He just betrays and that's all. Apart from the aforementioned manipulation of Sarkoz, he does nothing else. No additional killings, torture, etc. Even when he sees Sarkoz wounded, he simply leaves him to die without even trying to kill him. A traitor is required to do much more than just be a “traitor.” In this, he is reminiscent of Jacques Morneau: their main and only crime is simply helping more powerful villains. And although Turkey is worse (funny that Jacques' boss Jules Archibald is CM, while Hugin and Munin were far from the trope), it does not change the matter, it is just a help, not some kind of key role or anything.

Let's look at similar traitors who are KM. Preed betrays Corso and tries to kill him, Cale and Akima, sets a bomb to brutally kill Gun and Stith, sadistically mocking him and tries to actively give the Titan to Dreji, knowing full well that this will doom all humanity to death. Odalia Blight, sells her entire species to a witch hunter, treats her family horribly, tries to meanly and treacherously kill Luz and is an arms dealer, Adolf of Maciste sells his entire city to bloodthirsty conquerors, also gives them a child hostage and tries to crush Princess Bianca, viciously mocking her, Cole from Agent of Chaos Time Savers actively sells buildings to All-Galaxy and is responsible for the worst massacre in the series, plus regularly gets beaten up by a prisoner and an extremely terrible boss, Cypher and Gibbs actively sell and reveal the location of their allies to the main villain and hex their path to their targets, knowing full well that a lot of people will die, plus they themselves are killing several allies who trusted them very much, Dean Koontz reveals the location of the rebels, where they are killed en masse and hold a whole group of rebels at gunpoint to ensure that they die. And then there are people like Benny and Lapino...the list goes on for a long time.

Even traitors who are not C Ms, like Jenkins from Red Faction Guerlliia and Santos from The Saboteur go much further than Turkey ever went, completely exposing all the bases of the Resistance and playing a key role in this, Jenkins even boasts that he drew them a map of the Resistance bases, and in the case of Santos, a couple of important characters die (one of whom is killed by Santos’ helper). They all play a key and active role in the betrayal and take them all out, there will be no massacre, entire species will remain alive, as well as states, and Big Bad's plans will fall apart (or, as in the case of Belos, become noticeably much more complicated and give the victims a good chance to survive) . But CM has additional crimes to back up they monstrosity.

Turkey doesn't even have that. Is he a terrible person? Yes. Did he cross the MEH? Yes. Is he contemptuous and hateful? Yes. But CM? Sorry but no. He doesn't do much and even his betrayal isn't as bad as it could be. If Donatello, Kaburagi and everyone else hid in some place, and Turkey not only betrayed, but also actively helped Hugin and Munin kill them, and also had additional crimes to consolidate, for example, he would manipulate Sarkozy and would force him to kill Jill, another member of their gang or something else, then of course. As it is, he’s just a contemptuous jerk who’s just helping to start an event that most likely would have started anyway without his participation. As one user once said, all C Ms are terrible people, but not all are terrible people - CM and Turkey are a prime example of this. Terrible person, but I don't think he even comes close. After all, being a terrible person doesn't automatically make a CM a villain. If earlier I doubted whether was unintentionally belittling his role, then after watching the anime itself, I am firmly convinced that he needs to go. G's point is understandable, but Turkey could have been much worse. And some of the above-mentioned traitors also had almost no resources, which did not prevent them from going far in their betrayal. Solid cut.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Mar 7th 2024 at 1:42:20 AM

Jenkins from Guerilla is also out-of-his-gourd nuts and in a video game with possibly one of the biggest relative heinous standards I've ever seen, so he may not be the best example to use as a comparison there. All that said though, cut Turkey.

Cut Turkey

I don’t have a problem with cutting Turkey- I just wanted to know if we were doing so because your previous post said we were cutting all three characters from the show.

Cut Turkey based on the above.

Cut Hugin, Munin, and Turkey

I've got an two old, weirdly written Boris Karloff example of mine from way back in the day I want to rewrite.

From The Body Snatcher:

• The sinister John Gray, "evil himself," is a man of depraved obsessions centered around his associate Dr. "Toddy" MacFarlane. A cabman by day and grave robber by night, Gray establishes his cruelty by killing a dog who announces his presence in the grave, thieving from the graveyard to supply MacFarlane with specimens for his research. Gray eventually turns to the murder of a blind street singer to sate MacFarlane, and strangles his assistant Joseph to death, presenting his body to MacFarlane as a twisted gift and gradually driving MacFarlane deeper and deeper into the threshold of insanity until Gray finally admits he torments MacFarlane solely for the pleasure of having a rich man bent to his whims. Gray vows he will never stop tormenting MacFarlane, and his words ring true as MacFarlane's insanity claims him soon after he's driven to kill Gray. Hauntingly mad in his crusade to torment MacFarlane, Gray still remains among the most chilling performances of horror legend Boris Karloff.

My rewrite:

• The sinister John Gray, "evil himself," is a cabman by day and a grave robber by night. Gray digs up cadavers to provide to his associate, Dr. "Toddy" MacFarlane, and he shows off the kind of man he is by braining a dog with his shovel when it almost gives him away. Eventually, taking inspiration from the old case of Burke and Hare, Gray murders a harmless, blind street singer to give her corpse to MacFarlane. When Gray's assistant Joseph tries to blackmail him, Gray laughs, smothers him to death, and presents his body to "Toddy" as a sick gift. Gray finally admits he puts MacFarlane through such psychological torture just for the pleasure of having a rich man bent to his whims, and he vows he'll never stop tormenting MacFarlane. Gray haunts MacFarlane even past his own death, having broken the doctor beyond the point of all recovery, and his words follow MacFarlane to his untimely death: "you'll never be rid of me, Toddy!"

And The Black Room:

Original:

• Baron Gregor de Berghman holds cruel reign over his Tyrolean estate years after a prophecy predicted he would die at the hands of his younger twin Anton. Habitually murdering the wives of the peasants he lords over to amuse himself, Gregor invites Anton back to his home with the intent to murder his benevolent brother and impersonate him. Gregor kills his servant Mashka after she expresses jealousy over Gregor's own lust over the beautiful Thea, and succeeds in tossing his own brother to his death into the titular Black Room, taking his place to marry Thea and rule unopposed. Gregor murders Colonel Hassel after he sees through his deception, and arranges for Thea's love Lussan to take the blame for the murder and be sentenced to death. Utterly bereft of his twin brother's decency, Gregor was willing to murder even his own blood to retain the power he so cruelly maintained.

My rewrite:

• Gregor de Berghman is a cruel Tyrolean baron who devises an Evil Plan to murder his kindly twin brother, Anton, and impersonate him. Gregor's hobbies include serial murder; the film's namesake Black Room is a secret room where Gregor hides the bones of all the women he's killed. After successfully killing his brother and assuming his identity, Gregor also murders a colonel who knows the truth and arranges for an innocent man to take the fall for it. Gregor even kills his own devoted servant Mashka, a woman who has nothing but devotion to him, because she's an inconvenience to his plan of marrying another woman he values only as an object for him to possess.

Edited by Starkrafty on Mar 8th 2024 at 10:38:52 AM

To rewrites

Cut Hugin, Munin and Turkey. Yes for the rewrites.

For Revelation (Hellaverse) entry for Alastor has a pothole to Helluva Boss: Stolas, which has been merged away

Eh, that can stay. The page it's been merged with only has a few characters.

I've been keeping an eye on the character pages; there's a lot of work that'll need to be done.